Can you Split Hex, a Spell Hex?


Rules Questions


Very simple question

Can you Split Hex a Spell Hex?

D20 wrote:
When you use one of your hexes (not a major hex or a grand hex) that targets a single creature, you can choose another creature within 30 feet of the first target to also be targeted by the hex.
D20 wrote:

Benefit: Select one 1st-level spell in the class that grants you the major hex class feature. You can learn that spell as a hex, and can use that hex three times per day. This is a spell-like ability. You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex. The spell hex uses your hex DC instead of its original spell DC.

If the spell is a touch spell and you miss the creature, you cannot target the creature with that spell hex again for 24 hours. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or take a partial effect from the spell, and the target succeeds at that saving throw, it cannot be affected by the spell hex for 24 hours, even if it is in the area of the spell hex.


Probably, yes. Mind you, casting a 1st level spell at character level 10+, even if it is on 2 people and effectively a heightened spell is not often going to be worth 2 feats to do. It may not even be worth the standard action.


I don't see why not. The hex created by Spell Hex works just like any other hex.

Edit:

avr wrote:
not often going to be worth 2 feats to do

If you're a Witch, your 11th level feat is Split Hex, so it's only one feat that you really invest. Still a very valid overall point, of course.


I'd say no....

The split hex is requiring you to have access to a major hex, so it seems to imply that it is equal to doing so...

And the spell hex specifically says that it can't be a major hex.

Maybe it's not strong enough to matter but that is how I would interpret the interaction...


*Thelith wrote:

I'd say no....

The split hex is requiring you to have access to a major hex, so it seems to imply that it is equal to doing so...

And the spell hex specifically says that it can't be a major hex.

Maybe it's not strong enough to matter but that is how I would interpret the interaction...

... What? Split Hex specifically only calls out being usable on Hexes that are not Major or Grand Hexes. The prerequisite for the feat is Witch level 10th, nowhere does it say you need access to Major Hexes.


"You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex"

I meant spell hex, sorry.


*Thelith wrote:

"You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex"

I meant spell hex, sorry.

Spell Hex:
Select one 1st-level spell in the class that grants you the major hex class feature. You can learn that spell as a hex, and can use that hex three times per day. This is a spell-like ability. You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex. The spell hex uses your hex DC instead of its original spell DC....

It seems to call it as a hex; not a major hex or a grand hex, just a hex. All the feat asks for is that the character has the ability to use major hexes; that is all.

The witch has 3 hex class features: Hex, Major Hex, and Grand Hex. If something says you need Major Hex to acquire it, but in the same passage says to treat it as a Hex, then it's a Hex, not a Major Hex.


Alphavoltario wrote:
*Thelith wrote:

"You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex"

I meant spell hex, sorry.

** spoiler omitted **

It seems to call it as a hex; not a major hex or a grand hex, just a hex. All the feat asks for is that the character has the ability to use major hexes; that is all.

The witch has 3 hex class features: Hex, Major Hex, and Grand Hex. If something says you need Major Hex to acquire it, but in the same passage says to treat it as a Hex, then it's a Hex, not a Major Hex.

You do realize that major hexes and grand hexes don’t refer to themselves as anything other than simply “this hex” in their own text right? There is literally only 1 hex that distinguishes itself as a “grand hex” and that is Death Interrupted. There is also one oddity that distinguishes itself as “this powerful hex”, but none that refer to themselves as “major hex”, all major hexes simply say “this hex” if they even mention the fact that they are a hex at all… a lot of them just stare their effect and assume you know what they are, others just say “curse”…

The fact that the spell hex feat requires you to have the major hex class feature very much does imply that it is considered a major hex. Though it isn’t a solid ruling… ask your GM, because it is far from unreasonable for them to rule it as a major hex… the RAW is ambiguous… but the fact that the feat repeatedly calls out “major hex granting class” does lead credence to the RAI being that it is infact a major hex.


*Thelith wrote:
The split hex is requiring you to have access to a major hex, so it seems to imply that it is equal to doing so...

No, it doesn't. It explicitly states what the spell hex counts as, there is no room for implications.

"You can learn that spell as a hex" means you can learn that spell as a hex. If it was learned as a major hex, the text would say "You can learn that spell as a major hex". It doesn't.

Your "interpretation" requires making up words not in the text.


Derklord wrote:
*Thelith wrote:
The split hex is requiring you to have access to a major hex, so it seems to imply that it is equal to doing so...

No, it doesn't. It explicitly states what the spell hex counts as, there is no room for implications.

"You can learn that spell as a hex" means you can learn that spell as a hex. If it was learned as a major hex, the text would say "You can learn that spell as a major hex". It doesn't.

Your "interpretation" requires making up words not in the text.

Your interpretation requires ignoring contextual rules.

Quote:
Select one 1st-level spell in the class that grants you the major hex class feature. You can learn that spell as a hex, and can use that hex three times per day. This is a spell-like ability. You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex. The spell hex uses your hex DC instead of its original spell DC.

The Exchange

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The reason for the references to the "class that grants you the major hex class feature" isn't to say that the hex itself is a major hex. It is to limit the list from which you can pull the spell.

If it just said "class that grants you the hex class feature" then if you were a witch 10/shaman 2 you could pick a shaman spell to make a spell hex.


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And by interpretation, since both Spell Hex and Split Hex are from the same book, Hex/Major Hex/Grand Hex are all called out seperatly.

Split Hex:
When you use one of your hexes (not a major hex or a grand hex) that targets a single creature, you can choose another creature within 30 feet of the first target to also be targeted by the hex.

Spell Hex:
Select one 1st-level spell in the class that grants you the major hex class feature. You can learn that spell as a hex, and can use that hex three times per day. This is a spell-like ability. You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex. The spell hex uses your hex DC instead of its original spell DC.

Now tell me, where, even with insinuation, does it say 'treat this as a major hex'?
Major Hex:
Starting at 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch can choose one of the following major hexes whenever she could select a new hex.

Because even the class feature itself calls it out as a different ability building off the first. Prerequisite does not equal definition.


While I would agree a hex you take after level 10 isn't inherently a Major Hex, a hex you can only take after level 10 is a Major Hex


AwesomenessDog wrote:
While I would agree a hex you take after level 10 isn't inherently a Major Hex, a hex you can only take after level 10 is a Major Hex

But it's a feat. That grants a hex. That replicates a spell effect of spell level 1st. It's a basic hex. Same as Healing Hex, Slumber Hex and Flight Hex. It is essentially "build your own hex" and then puts a more restrictive limit use on it.

RAW says it's a hex.
Every Major Hex is a Hex, but not every Hex is a Major Hex. i.e. Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square.

Therefore RAI it has to be a basic Hex. There is no wording directly calling it out otherwise, such as in other feats within the same book.


Derklord wrote:

You need to relax and take a step back from this. While I agree with your stance, the standoffishness of your arguement does nothing to either solidify nor add to your case. This is a forum to discuss, not bicker.


Alphavoltario wrote:
You need to relax and take a step back from this. While I agree with your stance, the standoffishness of your arguement does nothing to either solidify nor add to your case. This is a forum to discuss, not bicker.

If you want to call out someone, call out Chell Raighn for making an accusatory statement with only the illusion of rule support. I wasn't the one to break discussion etiquette.

As you said it, this is a forum to discuss. Chell Raighn's post wasn't discussing anything, it was nothing but an attack against me. Not only was there nothing in the post that actually disproved (or even address) my argument, there also wasn't any valid argument, as Chell failed to make a connection between the highlighted parts of the rule source, and the statement made.


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Derklord wrote:

Then leave it as is. Others can draw their own conclusions from evidence provided. There is no need to bring vulgarities into the discussion, no matter who started it.

I have already pointed out contextual writing in 2 posts on this thread now, using context from the same source. If there are those who can not accept the points that were brought up, then that is on them, and I refuse to argue semantics past that.

If there is any further evidence in regards to this thread, please feel free to provide it; as it is more productive than attacking others interpretations of the ruleset.


Alphavoltario wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
While I would agree a hex you take after level 10 isn't inherently a Major Hex, a hex you can only take after level 10 is a Major Hex

But it's a feat. That grants a hex. That replicates a spell effect of spell level 1st. It's a basic hex. Same as Healing Hex, Slumber Hex and Flight Hex. It is essentially "build your own hex" and then puts a more restrictive limit use on it.

RAW says it's a hex.
Every Major Hex is a Hex, but not every Hex is a Major Hex. i.e. Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square.

Therefore RAI it has to be a basic Hex. There is no wording directly calling it out otherwise, such as in other feats within the same book.

But its not granting you a hex that you could take before you gain Major Hex. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...


This is why I said _I_ would say no.

And that _I Interpret_ this interaction in this way.

RAW doesn't specify.
RAI is up for debate.

I'm on the side that says no.

But, I am not your GM, so ask them.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
But its not granting you a hex that you could take before you gain Major Hex. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

And a level requirement, or in this case prerequisite, does not define the contents of the feat description. Ultimate Magic, the source book from where this feat came from, has clearly defined differences between the terms Hex and Major hex, as I had previously brought up with the Split Hex Feat. Therefore the wording of Spell Hex would be implicating that while having Major Hex is a prerequisite, the Spell Hex would be considered a hex.

You're focusing on the fact that it's a duck, when you're not asking yourself what kind of duck.


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What separates a hex from a major hex? That a major hex requires you to have the major Major Hex class feature before you can take it. It doesn't matter if you chose extra hex or spell hex to get a hex, if the hex requires you to have the Major Hex class feature first, it's a major hex.


I believe the RAW is ambiguous, but most strongly supports the gained SLA being a normal hex and not a major hex. There is nothing that prevents a major hex from giving you an ability that is not a major hex, though that's obviously atypical. The sentence that grants the ability explicitly goes out of its way to make the distinction between a hex and a major hex earlier in it.

I believe RAI is muddy enough to favor either side. Every other major hex is a major hex. There's no precedent I can think of for a hex that doesn't behave like that, but it's also not unreasonable to think that a 10th-level ability granting an auto-heightened 1st-level spell might be on par with the strength of a hex and not a major hex (like, for example, being compared to a hex that can put a creature to sleep that auto-scales; I feel like there's a hex that does that...).

Regardless of the ambiguities, I personally don't think there's a tremendous amount of harm in allowing it (at least no moreso than the shenanigans that can be accomplished by a full caster without restraint or restrictions). I would personally rule to let a player use it, though that's obviously not useful if strict RAW answer is necessary.

Silver Crusade

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AwesomenessDog wrote:
What separates a hex from a major hex?

The fact that they are two different class features, with two different names, defined in two different lists of options.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
What separates a hex from a major hex? That a major hex requires you to have the major Major Hex class feature before you can take it. It doesn't matter if you chose extra hex or spell hex to get a hex, if the hex requires you to have the Major Hex class feature first, it's a major hex.

The seperation comes from one specific word that is missing when describing the spell hex gained. Major. Without that word in front of "...You can learn this spell as a hex, and use that hex three times per day..." it is a hex through rule of omission.

Again.
Having the class feature of Major Hex as prerequisite does not change the contents of the feat.

It is the same as any other feat prerequisite, but requiring a specific class feature open only to those that can aquire the Major Hex class feature, not just those that have access to Major Hexes (such as the Hexcrafter Magus.)

If you desire to rule as otherwise in your home games, then, by all means, invoke rule 0 and make it so. But for a technical reading of the feat as should be set as precedent for RAW; by the omission the Major prefix in the case of Spell Hex, it is classified as a Hex.

The Exchange

Minor Spell Expertise wrote:

You are able to cast a 1st-level spell as a spell-like ability.

Prerequisites: Ability to cast 4th-level spells.

Benefit: Choose one 1st-level spell that you know. You may cast that spell twice per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this spell-like ability is equal to your caster level in the class from whose spell list the spell is taken. The spell-like ability’s save DC is Charisma-based. If the spell has an expensive focus or material component, it may not be chosen for this feat. You cannot apply metamagic feats to this spell.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new spell.

For Minor Spell Expertise you have to be able to cast 4th-level spells but the SLA does not become a 4th-level spell, it is a 1st-level spell.

For Spell Hex you have to have the major hex class feature but the SLA is not a major hex, it is a hex.

Spell Hex wrote:

You can transform a 1st-level spell into a hex.

Prerequisites: Major hex class feature.

Benefit: Select one 1st-level spell in the class that grants you the major hex class feature. You can learn that spell as a hex, and can use that hex three times per day. This is a spell-like ability. You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex. The spell hex uses your hex DC instead of its original spell DC.

If the spell is a touch spell and you miss the creature, you cannot target the creature with that spell hex again for 24 hours. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or take a partial effect from the spell, and the target succeeds at that saving throw, it cannot be affected by the spell hex for 24 hours, even if it is in the area of the spell hex.


Gray Warden wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
What separates a hex from a major hex?
The fact that they are two different class features, with two different names, defined in two different lists of options.

If you want to break it up by lists, then spell hex is on neither. Then we still need something to categorize it. Only thing left is prereqs.

Alphavoltario wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
What separates a hex from a major hex? That a major hex requires you to have the major Major Hex class feature before you can take it. It doesn't matter if you chose extra hex or spell hex to get a hex, if the hex requires you to have the Major Hex class feature first, it's a major hex.

The seperation comes from one specific word that is missing when describing the spell hex gained. Major. Without that word in front of "...You can learn this spell as a hex, and use that hex three times per day..." it is a hex through rule of omission.

Again.
Having the class feature of Major Hex as prerequisite does not change the contents of the feat.

It is the same as any other feat prerequisite, but requiring a specific class feature open only to those that can aquire the Major Hex class feature, not just those that have access to Major Hexes (such as the Hexcrafter Magus.)

If you desire to rule as otherwise in your home games, then, by all means, invoke rule 0 and make it so. But for a technical reading of the feat as should be set as precedent for RAW; by the omission the Major prefix in the case of Spell Hex, it is classified as a Hex.

Given the editors open admission they omit words in places like this, if you want to call it RAW*, you should still immediately acknowledge that there is heavy indication for RAI in the other direction.

Silver Crusade

AwesomenessDog wrote:
If you want to break it up by lists

I actually want to break it up by names, like "Hex" stated in the feat, as opposed to "Major Hex".


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Given the editors open admission they omit words in places like this, if you want to call it RAW*, you should still immediately acknowledge that there is heavy indication for RAI in the other direction.

Again.

As I have brought up previously, which has been ignored in the discussion: within the same book we happen to have a feat, Split Hex (coincidentally the other feat supposed to be discussed in this thread), that specifically calls out both major hexes and grand hexes from the terminology of "hex" used within the feat.
By contrast, the Spell Hex feat does not address this by calling itself out as a major hex to differentiate between the two class features. Quite the opposite; it labels itself as a hex. No frills, no baubles. Hex.

If we're going by a technical standpoint, granting a player the ability to cast a spell 3/day as a level scaling SLA at level 11 is about the average power level. They should not however have it be a dead ability until they hit level 19 for Split Major Hex to use it as an ability they would already have been able to do with another feat (see Minor Spell Expertise posted by Belafon combined with MetaSLA feats).

If a 3/day 1st level spell SLA is breaking the table, and worth arguing about, then by all means rule it according to your version of RAI, or ban those abilities at the table of the level of trouble is something like this. Invoke rule zero. But it is clearly written, no matter how hard anyone squints at it.
Prerequisite. Does. Not. Equal. Definition.


Alphavoltario wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
What separates a hex from a major hex? That a major hex requires you to have the major Major Hex class feature before you can take it. It doesn't matter if you chose extra hex or spell hex to get a hex, if the hex requires you to have the Major Hex class feature first, it's a major hex.

The seperation comes from one specific word that is missing when describing the spell hex gained. Major. Without that word in front of "...You can learn this spell as a hex, and use that hex three times per day..." it is a hex through rule of omission.

Again.
Having the class feature of Major Hex as prerequisite does not change the contents of the feat.

It is the same as any other feat prerequisite, but requiring a specific class feature open only to those that can aquire the Major Hex class feature, not just those that have access to Major Hexes (such as the Hexcrafter Magus.)

If you desire to rule as otherwise in your home games, then, by all means, invoke rule 0 and make it so. But for a technical reading of the feat as should be set as precedent for RAW; by the omission the Major prefix in the case of Spell Hex, it is classified as a Hex.

Every hex in the major hex list disagrees with you.

Delicious Fright wrote:
The witch can feed on the fear of her victim. The target of this hex becomes shaken for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch’s Intelligence modifier. As long as the witch remains within 30 feet of her target, she gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and a +1 morale bonus on saving throws as long as this effect persists. A successful Will save reduces the duration of this hex to 1 round. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

That is a major hex. No where in it's rules does it say "major hex" and yet, it is one.

Major Ameliorating (Su) wrote:
The witch can touch a creature to suppress or protect it from more debilitating negative conditions. Each time she uses this hex, the witch either chooses the blinded or deafened condition, or chooses a type of effect: curse, disease, or poison. If the target is or later becomes afflicted with the chosen condition or effect, that condition or effect is suppressed for a number of minutes equal to the witch’s level. Alternatively, for 24 hours the witch can grant her target a +4 circumstance bonus on saving throws against effects that cause any two of the above conditions or effects (witch’s choice; she can choose any combination of conditions or effects, as long as she chooses only two total). At 15th level, the witch can choose up to two total conditions or types of effects to suppress or three total conditions or types of effects to grant a circumstance bonus against each time she uses the major ameliorating hex. Once a creature has benefited from this hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Another major hex.

The only thing that defines if a hex is a normal hex, a major hex, or a grand hex is it's prerequisites.

Major Hex wrote:
Starting at 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch can choose one of the following major hexes whenever she could select a new hex.

That is litteraly the ONLY rule we have on what is a major hex. You can go through the entire list of major hexes, and I guarantee you won't find a single one that ever says it is a major hex. Out of the entire list of hexes only 1 calls itself by it's category. ONE SINGLE GRAND HEX. Every single Major hex just calls itself a hex (if it even recognizes that it is a hex in the firstplace).

Alphavoltario wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Given the editors open admission they omit words in places like this, if you want to call it RAW*, you should still immediately acknowledge that there is heavy indication for RAI in the other direction.

Again.

As I have brought up previously, which has been ignored in the discussion: within the same book we happen to have a feat, Split Hex (coincidentally the other feat supposed to be discussed in this thread), that specifically calls out both major hexes and grand hexes from the terminology of "hex" used within the feat.
By contrast, the Spell Hex feat does not address this by calling itself out as a major hex to differentiate between the two class features. Quite the opposite; it labels itself as a hex. No frills, no baubles. Hex.

Split Hex distinguishes between Hex, Major Hex, and Grand Hex to limit it's usage. Split Hex isn't a hex itself, but an ability that modifies how hexes can be used. So it's rules don't have any bearing on how you should or shouldn't read Spell Hex.

Alphavoltario wrote:

If we're going by a technical standpoint, granting a player the ability to cast a spell 3/day as a level scaling SLA at level 11 is about the average power level. They should not however have it be a dead ability until they hit level 19 for Split Major Hex to use it as an ability they would already have been able to do with another feat (see Minor Spell Expertise posted by Belafon combined with MetaSLA feats).

If a 3/day 1st level spell SLA is breaking the table, and worth arguing about, then by all means rule it according to your version of RAI, or ban those abilities at the table of the level of trouble is something like this. Invoke rule zero. But it is clearly written, no matter how hard anyone squints at it.
Prerequisite. Does. Not. Equal. Definition.

Spell Hex and Minor Spell Expertise aren't actually equivalent abilities. Minor Spell Expertise just grants the selected spell as an SLA. Nothing more, nothing less... Spell Hex changes it into a Hex, which is effectively an automatically heightened SLA. With a Hex, your DC improves as you gain levels, making it far more effective than a typical SLA at landing it's effect if it requires a save.


Chell Raighn wrote:

Every hex in the major hex list disagrees with you.

Delicious Fright wrote:
The witch can feed on the fear of her victim. The target of this hex becomes shaken for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch’s Intelligence modifier. As long as the witch remains within 30 feet of her target, she gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and a +1 morale bonus on saving throws as long as this effect persists. A successful Will save reduces the duration of this hex to 1 round. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

That is a major hex. No where in it's rules does it say "major hex" and yet, it is one.

Major Ameliorating (Su) wrote:
The witch can touch a creature to suppress or protect it from more debilitating negative conditions. Each time she uses
...

And that is where you are wrong, because those hexes are separated by a list titled Major Hexes. They are already under their respective category. However we are talking about wording in feats. And I've given wording of those feats.

You are bringing up arbitrary and otherwise unconnected information that has nothing to do with the inclusion of a Hex derived from the feat Spell Hex.


Alphavoltario wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:

Every hex in the major hex list disagrees with you.

Delicious Fright wrote:
The witch can feed on the fear of her victim. The target of this hex becomes shaken for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch’s Intelligence modifier. As long as the witch remains within 30 feet of her target, she gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and a +1 morale bonus on saving throws as long as this effect persists. A successful Will save reduces the duration of this hex to 1 round. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

That is a major hex. No where in it's rules does it say "major hex" and yet, it is one.

Major Ameliorating (Su) wrote:
The witch can touch a creature to suppress or protect it from more debilitating negative conditions. Each time she uses
...

And that is where you are wrong, because those hexes are separated by a list titled Major Hexes. They are already under their respective category. However we are talking about wording in feats. And I've given wording of those feats.

You are bringing up arbitrary and otherwise unconnected information that has nothing to do with the inclusion of a Hex derived from the feat Spell Hex.

And yet, still the defining feature of what differentiates a major hex from a normal hex is the requirement of the major hex class feature.


I'm still a no.

The Exchange

I have a question for the people who think the spell hex is a major hex per the text:

Suppose for a moment it was intended to be a “regular” hex. How would you have worded the feat to make that clear? (Bearing in mind there is no such rules term as regular hex, standard hex, minor hex, etc. in the witch class.)


Chell Raighn wrote:
And yet, still the defining feature of what differentiates a major hex from a normal hex is the requirement of the major hex class feature.

As you have yet to provide any further substantial evidence other than 'you're wrong, I'm right'; we will agree to disagree and leave it to others to add their thoughts on this matter.


Belafon wrote:

I have a question for the people who think the spell hex is a major hex per the text:

Suppose for a moment it was intended to be a “regular” hex. How would you have worded the feat to make that clear? (Bearing in mind there is no such rules term as regular hex, standard hex, minor hex, etc. in the witch class.)

It would make no mention of major hex.


Belafon wrote:

I have a question for the people who think the spell hex is a major hex per the text:

Suppose for a moment it was intended to be a “regular” hex. How would you have worded the feat to make that clear? (Bearing in mind there is no such rules term as regular hex, standard hex, minor hex, etc. in the witch class.)

I wouldn't make it require Major Hex first as that is what immediately implies it is a Major Hex, but if I did for some reason, it would say "This hex is not a Major Hex." You could also expect people to refer back to the Class Feature FAQ, and while this isn't an archetype, its falls under the same category of "similar ability, different naming" where as it requires Major Hex, it must be a Major Hex:

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability? wrote:


It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Having a prerequisite implies the same classification and limitations as anything else with that prerequisite.

There is also rule 0, or basic common sense where a strict reading, as Alphavoltario's RAW is, fails.


It's a bad enough ability as it stands, it doesn't need further restrictions placed on it than those explicitly in place already.

The Exchange

avr wrote:
It's a bad enough ability as it stands, it doesn't need further restrictions placed on it than those explicitly in place already.

This is the other thing I'm kinda wondering about. It's 1st-level spells only. What first level spells are so out of scale with hexes the spells shouldn't be allowed to be split?


Just because something isn't good doesn't mean it's legal.

There are plenty of crap high level abilities.


Belafon wrote:
avr wrote:
It's a bad enough ability as it stands, it doesn't need further restrictions placed on it than those explicitly in place already.
This is the other thing I'm kinda wondering about. It's 1st-level spells only. What first level spells are so out of scale with hexes the spells shouldn't be allowed to be split?

Split Hex True Strike.


Just realized that true strike isn't on the witch list/any of their patron lists, but even still, there's plenty of spammable denial of action economy and debuff spells on their 1st level list that with the full Hex DC become actually good through the entire game level 10+ to 20. And this is for a class that already has amazing action economy cheese thanks to cackle+soothesayer+fortune/misfortune/protective luck/evil eye.

The Exchange

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Just realized that true strike isn't on the witch list/any of their patron lists,

Even if true strike was on the spell list (it is on the magus spell list, and the hexcrafter magus can take this feat) it wouldn't matter because that's a personal range spell. Making it a hex wouldn't change that, so splitting it wouldn't do anything.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
but even still, there's plenty of spammable denial of action economy and debuff spells on their 1st level list that with the full Hex DC become actually good through the entire game level 10+ to 20. And this is for a class that already has amazing action economy cheese thanks to cackle+soothesayer+fortune/misfortune/protective luck/evil eye.

I don't think that's the right use of "action economy." All those are standard actions to use. A 1st-level spell as a hex becomes yet another standard action to work into the rotation, so the question is "which Split first-level spells are so good they would be a higher priority than a Split evil eye/misfortune/fortune/protective luck/another evil eye debuff/slumber/etc.?"

The Exchange

Here's my problem with the "RAW" arguments being made that the Spell Hex is a major hex: You are assuming that Paizo made an error of omission by not explicitly calling the hex a major hex. In which case you aren't making a "RAW" argument.

Spell Hex with one word added wrote:

You can transform a 1st-level spell into a hex.

Prerequisites: Major hex class feature.

Benefit: Select one 1st-level spell in the class that grants you the major hex class feature. You can learn that spell as a major hex, and can use that hex three times per day. This is a spell-like ability. You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex. The spell hex uses your hex DC instead of its original spell DC.

If the spell is a touch spell and you miss the creature, you cannot target the creature with that spell hex again for 24 hours. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or take a partial effect from the spell, and the target succeeds at that saving throw, it cannot be affected by the spell hex for 24 hours, even if it is in the area of the spell hex.

See? If I wanted it to be a major hex that's all I have to do.


Bear in mind that with split hex at 11th, spell hex at 13th or vice versa, the split spell hex needs to compete with spells up to 7th level. Split hex + shadow trap is up against stiff competition. I'm not sure it can compete with mass debilitating pain, mass peacebond, rime spell + ice spears, etc.

And I think that the wording as given may allow for it to be a major hex but does not require it. As such cutting spell hex a break seems quite fair.


avr wrote:

Bear in mind that with split hex at 11th, spell hex at 13th or vice versa, the split spell hex needs to compete with spells up to 7th level. Split hex + shadow trap is up against stiff competition. I'm not sure it can compete with mass debilitating pain, mass peacebond, rime spell + ice spears, etc.

And I think that the wording as given may allow for it to be a major hex but does not require it. As such cutting spell hex a break seems quite fair.

This is the balance scenario I was attempting to emphasize in my first post with the allusion to Slumber.

With that said, you can have this up and running without doing anything fancy by 11th level, not 13th. At 10th level you can take Split Hex (as your 10th level Witch hex), and at 11th level you can take Spell Hex as your feat. I don't think the argument gets much stronger comparing Split Hex on a 1st-level spell to using a standard to cast Split Hex on any decent normal hex or a 6th-level spell, but it's still a slightly different comparison.

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