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A somewhat difficult subject to deal with. I know the rule of suffocation and drowning when the environment is 0 oxygen. The problem comes when you want to use that rule, to get immunity to inalated poisons.
I have had games, where covering your mouth and nose with a cloth can give you a bonus, I am in favor of that if you choose to hold your breath to double that bonus, but never give immunity.
To what extent can you twist the rules to make them in your favor? I can understand that in a game certain factors are not taken into account such as the stress that a person should have in that situation, and that from the comfort of your home and having minutes to think about the next turn, when within the game, the decision is up to seconds (6 to be exact).
The specific scene is, you are in a building full of smoking corpses, because you have "seen" them die a few minutes ago, you have the pressure that something wants to kill you, but you do not see it and you cannot face it (because it is attacking remotely), room that you enter, room that has a different environmental problem, and when you are close to the exit, a trap attacks you, removes the environmental protection so that the inflamed poison affects you, and the player, with all his blood cold and unaware of the environment say, I hold my breath.
When I denied it, he put me in a bad way.
Remind me that there is a rule of holding your breath.
And while that rule exists, it is located in suffocation and drowning, in how to survive underwater. (to my understanding, in environments with 0 oxygen).
After the talk that I have released, because i had to release it.
My question is, to what extent should a player be allowed to give benefits that do not exist or to twist a regulation so that, by keeping him happy, he can spoil a game for you?
Simple, stingmore mines. Less lethal and I would like to see someone hold their breathe while in agony.
Ok, so on a serious note. So if I understand correctly you had a Inhale poison in a room and a trap that disables Environmental protection.
So his response it to say he holds his breath to avoid having to inhale the poison.
On a purely mechanical front, I would cut down the duration by at least half because there is no guarantee he would have a full set of lungs at that exact moment, if its exceptionally hectic I would even consider it his Con Bonus in rounds.
Players thinking outside the box can cause issues which it sounds like he did (By actually finding a rule which can apply)
Personally, I think its something that is called depending on the group or the game style you are playing.
If your running it just so people can go kill things in glorious battles, then yeah the rules fall off a bit.
If its supposed to be a more Thriller style of games (Think Alien) then unless its exceptionally clever, be rigid. You don't want to punish your players.
The problem is without more info, its hard to tell where the trouble is.
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I'm not sure why GMs are putting inhalation traps in Starfinder at all, considering activating your environmental protections negates them completely.
Most players would say that they "would have activated the protections" as soon as stuff started happening, seeing as you have a day or more of protection in every suit of armor.
I don't see a problem with PCs holding their breath, but in order to do so, they're going to have to take a big gulp... which might be too late. It's also a standard action to activate protections.
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The only reason not to activate your armor protections when you wake up is because you have high level armor and activated them when you went to sleep.
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Dracomicron, this trap have 2 effects,
1º, a spray of acid, (if you failed save) broke the protection,
2º the poison enter 9 rounds.
Honestly, my goal was not to kill the players, but the NPC they were protecting. XD.
there are traps and effects that attack the protections, that they have them activated does not worry me, it shows that my players take the game seriously.
What bothers me is that they try to twist the rules and profit from nothing where the dice fail.
I just plain don't care for the encounter design to start with.
While I don't like the described 'twist the rules for their benefit', I really don't like encounter design that just turns off a key defense just because.
It's like... having a monster's breath weapon target fortitude because the operative keeps passing their reflex saves.
So, I understand the player coming up with something on the fly to keep his defenses that suddenly and unexpectedly disappeared seemingly at random. I'd allow what he did to work for a round or two.
But, I also wouldn't have made this sort of encounter to start with. If you really wanted to get poison through protection it should have been a cone of poisoned darts where you take damage only on a failed save and are exposed to poison kind of thing.
The effects are the same, but it's an expected and understood threat to the players and not a 'your environmental protections are gone just because' handwave.
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First, that meeting is starfinder society.
second, he didn't make it up on the fly, he took two rules, removed the part that he didn't like, like the requirements, and took the part that he did like, which was, being immune to inhaled poison attacks.
Maybe you don't like the term twisting the rules, but I don't know a better term.
I, as GM, have never changed a term, nor have I cheated, (like the example of the dragon), if my players have an advantage over the NPCs, enjoy it, but if the situation turns adverse, don't look for things that they do not come in the books, or at least, that they do not take part of the books and turn them into general rules.
There are rules and effects (both traps and fusion seals) that attack the PC's batteries (including armor).
All my questions are almost always society, if it were my own world, I do not bother people here, I would apply my rules, my world, but when it is something sanctioned, I prefer to ask.
My role as GM is to prepare the adventure and develop it based on the decisions of the players, no more, no less. I neither change enemies or set traps where there are none, or set more powerful traps to screw my players. It's not my job. I just narrate and try to enforce the rules of the game, not accept the rules that they want when they feel like it.
In his defense, I have encountered effects which can disable tech items. Enviro protection is a tech effect. (Why else is Analog a quality?)
I do agree the poisoned darts might be easier.
Without a the armour Mod (in built food dispenser) wouldn't you also need to turn the EP off to eat? Sandwich can't phase through your Helmet.
If you directly changed the breathe weapon to be a Fort save then yeah, its an AH thing to do if its just to target that character. If the creature you use has a fort based weapon, not so much. Though I will say I have altered a creatures vulnerability. 1, to stop Meta gaming (Troll. I made it a stone based one, replacing fire with sonic) and to keep players on their toes. In my defense, we did have sonic damage in the party, actually turned out our Solarian decided to use his pistol rather then his sword without knowing the change.
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i never altered a creatures vulnerability, for me, sometime the player are better, and sometime worse, and when you exceed your weak points, you should come out strengthened, (at least that happens to me when I play, in pathfinder 2, in the first 10 games of society, I dying at 10 xD and when I began to overcome the games without dying, I feel like I'm on the right track).
my bad, do not explain exactly what he did.
2 rules
Environmental Rules
Source Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 400
Suffocation And Drowning
A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. If a character takes a standard or full action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After these rounds have elapsed, the character must attempt a Constitution check (DC = 10 + 1 per previous check) each round in order to continue holding her breath.
(there is more, but this part is the key)
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No Breath (Ex)
Source Alien Archive 4 pg. 154, Alien Archive 2 pg. 152, Alien Archive pg. 155, Alien Archive 3 pg. 153
The creature doesn’t breathe, and it’s immune to effects that require breathing (such as inhaled poison). This doesn’t give it immunity to cloud or gas attacks that don’t require breathing.
Format: Other Abilities no breath.
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if you imagine where I'm going ...
Player rule:
I can hold her breath, and as breath i am immune to effects that require breathing (such as inhaled poison) for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. ... (etc, etc, etc)
xD. Imagine my face when he told me.
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oh, the trap... (game tier 1-2)
THE SMOKER CR 4
Type technological; Perception DC 17 to notice the acid sprayers in the ceiling, DC 12 to notice the gas vents in the floor; Disable Engineering DC 19 to disable the acid sprayers, Engineering DC 19 to block the gas vents, Computers or Engineering DC 22 to open a locked exit door.
Trigger Argent activates the Smoker when one or more PCs are in the room and both doors are shut, or if a PC attempts to bypass a door to the Smoker and fails, while someone is inside it; Init +13; Duration 1 minute; Reset 1 minute
Initial Effect acid sprays from the nozzles in the ceiling (3d6 A damage); Reflex DC 14 half. Characters who fail and who are wearing armor with environmental protections lose the benefit of those protections, as the specialized acid eats away at delicate equipment and breaks the armor’s seal. A character with cover from the ceiling sprayers has a +2 bonus to this saving throw (+1 for partial cover, +4 for total cover). Secondary Effec On the second round, poison gas begins to rise from vents around the edge of the floor, filling the room (2d6 damage); DC 14 Fort half each round. Characters with working environmental protections are immune to this damage. For the first 4 rounds in which the gas is present, characters can lie prone in the middle of the floor to minimize the effects of the gas, which is lighter than air; after 4 rounds, however, the gas has filled enough of the room that lying prone is no longer effective. Characters may also cover their mouths and noses and breathe through some sort of filter, such as a cloth. Each of these strategies gives a +2 bonus to the Fortitude save (OH, What a coincidence, what I said about a creative solution and the player did not accept). After 10 total rounds, including the round in which the acid sprayers activated, the trap begins to reset. Water sprays from the ceiling to wash acid off of everything, and the gas is sucked out of the room through the vents.
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If that is the actual written trap in the scenario, word for word then I can judge on that. Strictly speaking, it is not a poison as the game mechanic. It is an area of effect attack which is an environmental effect. The trap gives a bonus to the DC with certain effects.
The No breath ability does not come into play. The character does not have it. I would say they can gain the bonus, even a +4 for holding their breath.
I am curious, how would the trap effect an Android or an SRO? One of the PC races which do not need to breathe? With the Android being a CRB race, I would guess a scenario would make mention of them.
If it is a home built trap, then technically what ever the GM says goes... The 'poison' being descriptive and the covering of the mouth and nose is basically a way to reduce the amount you absorb...
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If that is the actual written trap in the scenario, word for word then I can judge on that. Strictly speaking, it is not a poison as the game mechanic. It is an area of effect attack which is an environmental effect. The trap gives a bonus to the DC with certain effects.
The No breath ability does not come into play. The character does not have it. I would say they can gain the bonus, even a +4 for holding their breath.
Yes, but it is not the first time that I read that covering the nose and mouth gives a bonus of +2, in other similar traps they tell you (mainly pathfinder), and I give that bonus in similar situations if the players make creative ideas. The problem comes when they contradict me and take that rule out saying it's better.
The bad thing is that before opening this thread, I have looked for information on the subject, and the few that I have found and have read (either by an attack of a smoke grenade or similar) said something similar to this, I do not breathe and it doesn't affect me. hence, I ask to what extent you have to let a player twist the rules.maybe the word twist is not appropriate, but I can't find something better.
I am curious, how would the trap effect an Android or an SRO? One of the PC races which do not need to breathe? With the Android being a CRB race, I would guess a scenario would make mention of them.
Easy, are inmune, an Android have no breath Ability. this trap it is useless against them.
Android as a PC race doesn't have the no breath rule (From my read of the CRB)
For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both constructs and humanoids (whichever type allows an ability to affect them for abilities that affect only one type, and whichever is worse for abilities that affect both types). They receive a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and sleep, unless those effects specifically target constructs. In addition, androids do not breathe or suffer the normal environmental effects of being in a vacuum.
In regards to players, I would say its situational. If it helps the story, I can understand bending rules for benefits (A GM once gave me a +1 to disabling a trap because I used a +1 dagger. Not Starfinder but this is about games in general), if however they are just being a bad player, moaning and the such to try and get benefits, I don't think as a GM you should give in. I am not saying they is a bad player, I don't know them.
Holding your breathe and not breathing are 2 different things. A creature that doesn't breathe most likely doesn't have the anatomy a breathing creature does. The gas can still enter your mouth and nose and get into your system.
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ummm. you doubt me, I've always heard that if they have.
Constructed
For effects targeting creatures by type, androids count as both constructs and humanoids (whichever type allows an ability to affect them for abilities that affect only one type, and whichever is worse for abilities that affect both types). They receive a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, poison, and sleep, unless those effects specifically target constructs. In addition, androids do not breathe or suffer the normal environmental effects of being in a vacuum.
They may not have the ability as it is written, but the effect does.
I am aware they have something similar but if you are speaking of rules, they do not have the ability 'No breath'.
When it comes to questions of rules, just because something does something similar, doesn't mean its the same ability.
I only asked about the Android (With pointing out the different ability) more as a way to question rules in the scenario. I have read scenarios where they will have a little info box that state how basic/common PC abilities effect it, like how an Android who doesn't breathe might be immune.
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It all comes down to: was the player acting in a disruptive manner? Yes.
Why was he being disruptive? He felt cheated out of a basic assumption of the setting (environmental protections)
Should he have behaved in a disruptive manner? No.
Was the scenario unfair? No, not really... it just was written so that a player could use disruptive behavior to try and weasel out of it. It's also written in such a way that it handwaves away default assumptions of the setting in a unsatisfying way.
All in all, I don't think you or your player were at fault for the falling out here. I would recommend more communication, and file this encounter under 'lessons learned' as to what sets off this particular player's sense of fair play.
Pre-written or not, this scenario feels far to much like 'aha, you activated my trap card' and not 'Ooh, you triggered a trap, bad idea to roll a 1 this time ol' buddy'.
To be fair Nimor, I would hazard that the trap (By both its description and some logic for it) doesn't just turn it off but breaks it.
Other then that, yeah they are good points.
Like Garret said, it sounds like a learning experience.
By specifics of the damage I assume you mean game mechanic wise? as in 'A DC 15 Engineering check to repair'. Yeah that would be useful to know.
I don't think the idea of holding his breath was the disruptive part, its the player not accepting the circumstance bonus offered and basically going 'This rule section stats I can do X, this monster rule sounds like X and gives me a benefit I want'
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An inhaled affliction is delivered the moment a creature that breathes (and isn’t wearing a space suit or suit of armor that filters out such toxins) enters an area containing such an affliction. Most inhaled afflictions fill a volume equal to a 10- foot cube per dose. A creature at risk can attempt to hold its breath while inside such an area to avoid inhaling the affliction. There is a 50% chance each round a creature holding its breath doesn’t need to attempt a saving throw against the affliction (see Suffocation and Drowning on page 404).
In an ideal world the scenario text would have provided a reminder of this rule.
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If a trap is supposed to disable environmental protection, it really should provide a lot more details on *how* it does so. Like, *does* it damage their armor, such that it needs to be repaired? Be specific, because the victims of this trap will *definitely* want to know how to fix things afterwards.
And why do PCs with a black heart necrograft or a life bubble spell care what happens to their armor's environmental protection, anyway?
Not everyone is a spell caster.
Not every spell caster has life bubble.
My armour, which is a must if I want to survive does the job.
Not everyone wants to corrupt themselves with Necrografts.