So, I've been receiving some mixed signal in regards to the efficacy of summoning as a Sorcerer/Oracle (full caster progression but stuck casting as a full round action). I've seen opinions ranging from "amazing" to "basically useless". So, I figured I'll just come out here and ask: what are your opinions on the subject? Do you think Oracles and Sorcerers are "good enough" at summoning to use it as their primary tactic in combat? Or do you think such a character would not be making a good contribution to a fight? Anything in between?
There are two issues with summoning on a non-Summoner... or rather 3 major advantages for the Summoner (or archetypes).
You've identified one, the 1 round cast time vs standard action. (NOTE: 1 round cast time is vastly different from a full-round cast time) There are a few ways to get around the 1 round cast time, like Sacred Summons, but are extra hoops to jump though. If you aren't getting standard action summons, you are really missing out on a powerful tactic. Doubling up on Summons at the cost of uses. Specifically, Round 1 you standard action summon and your summons immediately take their actions. Round 2, your summons act again, and you simply summon a new set... which also immediately take their actions. 1 round cast times are much easier to disrupt as any damage you take between rounds means you need to make a concentration check.
The second is that Summoners get a number of max level summons for 'free' per day. For example, a level 10 Summoner with 24 Cha effectively has 7 level 5 spell slots for summon monster only and has 2 4th level spell slots. A level 10 Oracle will have 4 level 5 slots and 6 4th level slots. So the Oracle will get a couple max level summons, and then have to use lower slots when the Summoner gets more max rank ones.
The third advantage for the Summoner is the duration, Summoners have 1 minute/level on their SLA. Meaning that they can generally get a second combat out of them, or summon before combat starts.
Essentially, you can do it, but is it worth it? If your point was to get higher level spells, I am not sure if you are actually getting them if you have to spend them on Summons anyway to be competitive.
Well, my original "use-case" that caused me to look into this subject was a build that was mostly focused on out of combat utility (namely a Lore Oracle). So in that case the "point" of going with summoning was to make that character actually useful in combat. Though I definitely noticed that having to keep the highest available level SM spell at all times (and probably one level before that in case you run out) significantly delayed everything else, as you've noted in the last paragraph.
It can be done, but as Firebug notes those are particularly sub-optimal class choices. You can standard action summons with Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Arcanist, or Summoner (possibly a couple other ways). Those all have access to the next higher Summon spell at odd levels, where Oracle/Sorcerer are a level behind (at odd levels). And it doesn’t seem to play to their strengths; as spontaneous casters, their special special is being able to dump all their slots in one direction one day and a different direction the next, without needing to prepare. If you plan to go with Summons every combat, might as well be a prepared caster (needing to select multiple levels of Summon spells kind of chews up your limited Spells Known as well).
I guess mostly, why would you choose one of those classes?
Lelomenia wrote: It can be done, but as Firebug notes those are particularly sub-optimal class choices. You can standard action summons with Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Arcanist, or Summoner (possibly a couple other ways). Those all have access to the next higher Summon spell at odd levels, where Oracle/Sorcerer are a level behind (at odd levels). And it doesn’t seem to play to their strengths; as spontaneous casters, their special special is being able to dump all their slots in one direction one day and a different direction the next, without needing to prepare. If you plan to go with Summons every combat, might as well be a prepared caster (needing to select multiple levels of Summon spells kind of chews up your limited Spells Known as well).
I guess mostly, why would you choose one of those classes?
As I've said earlier, the reason I was looking into using summoning as Sorcerer/Oracle is because I was looking for a way to provide a character that focuses a lot on out of combat utility with a way to pull their weight in a fight(specifically, a Lore Oracle). So in my particular case the class was chosen first for it's other features, and summoning was a later addition.
I'll note that Unchained Summoner replaced the APG Summoner (which had multiple issues and a GM would be silly to allow it) but it is what it is. Sure that class is specifically good at summons (if the name didn't give it away already).
As with most things it's a trade off. In this case spell choice and having to split your *filled* magic item slots with your eidolon. Essentially the summoner becomes the weak point in the build which people try to fix by being enveloped by the caster's eidolon.
Honestly if you're just starting out, the magic system takes some expertise and experience to use effectively. The divine casting side has less choice and is more forgiving (most spellcasting choices are obvious).
It's a game. Play what you think you will enjoy.
All in all low BAB classes aren't that good at melee combat. They just don't get the proficiencies, feats, and such that martials do. So you have to choose between a full caster, middle ground, or martial.
Magus, Warpriest, or some of the hybrid classes or occult classes might be what you're looking for. It's a combination of the campaign you're in, it's style, and what you want to be successful at.
Azothath wrote:
All in all low BAB classes aren't that good at melee combat. They just don't get the proficiencies, feats, and such that martials do.
To be more precise - by "pull their weight in a fight" I meant "be useful in a combat encounter" rather than "be decent at punching people". I apologize for the confusion - english isn't my first language so every now and then I end up missing some nuance or implying something I didn't intend to.
You should be fine for most campaigns. Keep in mind summoning is just an option for oracle / sorcerer - you are free to spend an adventuring day without any summon, using your slots for something else. Known spells are a limitation for both classes, but you get a lot of options out of a single Summon Monster spell, and you can trade away the lower-level versions for something else.
Sorcerer has a few summoning-friendly bloodlines (abyssal comes to my mind). Oracle might have a helpful mystery or achetype.
well, hopefully everyone pulls their weight in a fight. Really it's a matter of game theory; strategy and method versus challenge. Those change with time and theme of the game.
I'm sure people will have a million suggestions.
Personally I think a Cleric is a good learning class. You get the softer side of magic and some combat skills, and a party can never have too many clerics or paladins.
If you're familiar with magic then grab the bull by the horns and play a diviner wizard that focuses on evocation, conjuration, or necromancy and get your aegis of recovery as your bonded object. You won't be a specialized as evokers, conjurers, or necromancers but you'll go first and have more tricks. IF you want more combat savvy, it'll take a dip into flowing monk for 2 levels or rogue for 2 levels.
There's nothing wrong with sorcerer or oracle, both are pretty powerful but the class choices can be more critical than with other classes and you tend to specialize pretty quickly. If that's not what you want or you feel you've made a mistake then retraining rules are your "out".
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