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Honestly, Dragon Claw doesn't even scale as good as Resist Energy. 7th level Resist Energy gives you and 4 other creatures resistance 15 to any energy type, for 10 whole minutes. But Dragon Claw? You don't get resist 15 until 9th spell level, and only for you, and only for 1 minute, and only for your one specific type.
If you go Dragon Disciple because "oh that archetype is for this". It takes you another 2 feats to get the slightly better resistance. If you even manage to get it, because now you are taking 3 different archetypes and using up all your feats. Not that the Dragon Disciple feats are any good anyway.
Memorizing resist energy as a 7th level spell is a pretty intense cost to compare to something you can do multiple times a day when you need to without using a slot. Level seven Spell slot spells really should blow first level default focus spells out of the water.
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How is numbers comparisons and mechanical implications from the rules not evidence?Flawed assumptions, with a side of selectively ignoring "numbers comparisons and mechanical implications" that run counter to your claim.
It's fact that spellcasters are meant to be behind in martial capability, and the numbers prove it...In the select context of weapon attack rolls, yes. However "I'm not as good as a martial character at this" is not inherently the same as "I'm so bad at this that it's not inaccurate to call it non-viable."
Because after all, if you absolutely had to have a higher attack bonus than casters can get with weapons or it wouldn't be viable to use in play, we'd be seeing a lot of people saying not just "don't go a -10/-8 MAP attack, you've got better options for your actions than that" but something more like "never make an attack if any MAP applies to it because it's just not viable." Not this selectively applied nonsense of it somehow being fine for a martial to make a 2nd attack on their turn with MAP but a caster that makes an attack with a usually higher bonus than that is "useless."
Let's see here. We got D6 HP, no armor proficiencies, the worst Fortitude and Reflex save scaling in the game, and function best not using weapons and casting spells, which is where our 18 stat is. Wading into melee sounds like the absolute best option for us just because we have these fancy claws we can activate! Meanwhile, we get poisoned, diseased, or nuked to oblivion because we weren't smart enough to just use appropriate spellcaster tactics which is to just avoid those situations in the first place. Don't worry, Mirror Images will protect us. Even though we'll just get constantly criticaled and not even have the HP to survive the attacks anyway, even on normal attacks. Genius!
You can say that the numbers being off aren't so bad. That's not really the point being made. Yes, starting out, they're only at-least 1 point behind, if not more, depending. But, the gap widens at every abundance of potency rune adjustments, plus proficiency adjustments, since a caster will not (read: should not) be invested in their off-shots as much as a martial is. Eventually, they are going to be 3 or 4 points behind a Martial at-best, which is just plain bad. A martial caps out at +36 by 20th level (20 level + 6 proficiency + 3 item + 7 attribute), or +38 for fighters. A spellcaster will get +32 by comparison (20 level + 4 proficiency + 3 item + 5 attribute), a big difference at that level, especially if you're facing well-above level foes, not an unreasonable expectation for Level 20 characters.
The biggest problem for our hypothetical martial-caster stems from them not having the HP or proficiencies for defense, including AC and saves. No Juggernaut, Evasion, etc., or even capacity to use armor competently? That's a death sentence in the late/endgame. Even simply bumping it to Master by 17th level via Canny Acumen will not fix the simple factor that not having those features will kill you quickly. And good luck getting Armor to anything beyond Expert, much less keeping pace without burning all your WBL on other spellcaster things.
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What would it take to make trying to use a first level sorcerer focus spell the best option against a higher level monster at level 20?
Primal sorcerers are likely to miss with their focus spell against a higher level enemy. They don’t get true strike after all. Almost all the other sorcerer 1st level sorcerer spells have no effect on successfully save meaning most of them are useless too. Pyschopomp is pretty much the only one likely not to fail to do anything useful that isn’t a buff.
Dragon claws is really not the “woe is me!” Option compared to most sorcerer first level focus spell options.
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My necromancer wizard is not afraid to end up in melee fairly often. He doesn’t waste actions moving towards it, but when it comes to him, the false life spell covers a decent hit and allows the paladin an opportunity to get her hit in. Vampiric touch is pretty good at undoing an attack against, and shattering Gem is a real annoyance. Casters have a lot of creative ways to play the game in a unique way.
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I didn't realize that 2-10 was better than 5-14. Or 7-16 from a raging barbarian. Or 6-20 from a precision ranger. Or 6-24 from a Power Attacking Fighter. By the way you have to spend an action for this 2-10 while the martial gets the 5-14 at the start unless they didn't have their weapon drawn already, something that's pretty rare in my experience and I'm in the AP where you need to sheath your weapon the most.
"B-but, but the s-strength score"
I would give you this argument, but you mentioned Finesse. The only way Finesse is going to help the claws is if the Str is 14 or below, and let me tell you 14 str/16 dex is gonna put a strain on that ability budget. You still have a casting stat to take care of. What, you wanna run around in melee as a bad fort class with only 12 con? Have fun in Paizo's poison chambers then. And that's before the HP problem.
The highest I can see someone reasonably expect push the damage of the claws early on is 3-11. Any further would leave you extremely vulnerable while in melee range or would sacrifice your casting ability too much. A focus point to just be able to deal 3-11 damage ain't worth it when you have cantrips dealing 5-8 (or 5-11) damage for free that you can use from range and run off your main stat. You get way more damage types too, and one of them hits two targets at once and runs off of saves instead of attack rolls.
Gods I was calling the offense part of Dragon Claws a shiny dagger but now that I look at the practical math I'm afraid I have to downgrade it to a glowy dagger. This damage is embarrassing if it's struggling to compete with the cantrips.
What would it take to make trying to use a first level sorcerer focus spell the best option against a higher level monster at level 20?
Primal sorcerers are likely to miss with their focus spell against a higher level enemy. They don’t get true strike after all. Almost all the other sorcerer 1st level sorcerer spells have no effect on successfully save meaning most of them are useless too. Pyschopomp is pretty much the only one likely not to fail to do anything useful that isn’t a buff.
Dragon claws is really not the “woe is me!” Option compared to most sorcerer first level focus spell options.
Well, Elemental Toss is only a 1 action Focus Spell. It's great for wombo-comboing big bads with single target damage. Certainly better than Dragon Claws (and relatively safer, too), since it has far better accuracy (by over 5 points by my count). But to be clear, there are ways for Primal Sorcerers to get True Strike, not unlike Divine spellcasters getting True Strike via Deity selection, so it's not the end-all if they don't inherently have access to it. I already know of two certain ways, even if they are limited in application.
It starts off fine, but then it tapers into uselessness. Elemental Toss doesn't have that problem; it's still widely useful across all levels of play, because it maintains relevance via your spellcasting proficiency and primary attribute. The claws simply...don't. Thusly, they suffer much more in comparison.
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Exactly, HyperMissingno. When you have to pay a focus point, a 1st level spell (True Strike tax), a whole lot of money, a bunch of feats, and you still deal less damage than a cantrip?
That's not a good look for any ability.
It's even more spells if you end up using stuff like false life to keep yourself up. At this point I feel it's better to use the claws and then throw out bluff to keep opponents off of you by making it seem like glowy dagger is more deadly than it really is. Or, you know, pop it for that AC and resistance.
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It's starting to become silly when people compare unarmed strike damage to two-handed weapon damage.
You know, one of those is prescribed lower damage universally because it actually gets to use their hands. Please compare to other things like a finesse weapon before I start comparing multiclass cantrip damage to 10th level slots.
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It's starting to become silly when people compare unarmed strike damage to two-handed weapon damage.
You know, one of those is prescribed lower damage universally because it actually gets to use their hands. Please compare to other things like a finesse weapon before I start comparing multiclass cantrip damage to 10th level slots.
This is not an unarmed strike vs. a two handed weapon. This is a focus spell with strength bonus vs. a two handed weapon with some extra class features and strength bonus vs. a buncha cantrips with casting stat bonus.
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I am glad you find elemental sorcerer so satisfying! It sounds like a good fit for how you want to play your sorcerer. I get that thematically you wanted to play a draconic sorcerer, but the mechanic didn’t quite fit. Mechanics and theme are tied together in PF2.
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Why would anyone use the low damage, highly risky dragon claw so long as offensive cantrips remain available? They're literally worse than most cantrips in every way! Nearing 9th-level, I can count the number of times my dragon sorceress has used dragon claw to attack on one hand.
Those of you who mock us for being disingenuous are yourselves disingenuous. Cut it out.
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This is not an unarmed strike vs. a two handed weapon. This is a focus spell with strength bonus vs. a two handed weapon with some extra class features and strength bonus vs. a buncha cantrips with casting stat bonus.It's starting to become silly when people compare unarmed strike damage to two-handed weapon damage.
You know, one of those is prescribed lower damage universally because it actually gets to use their hands. Please compare to other things like a finesse weapon before I start comparing multiclass cantrip damage to 10th level slots.
Yes, and one of them is being a martial class with access to martial weapons and is locked into using both hands on that weapon. Another uses 2 actions in a 3-action turn.
Dragon claws? Doesn't require any of those things.
Heres's the requirements to use it: Pop dragon claws every fight if you don't have a better third action. Use a cantrip and then claw someone if they run up to you, especially since you'll probably be popping a few boosts into Dex anyways. There, pretty standard use case found.
This is not an unarmed strike vs. a two handed weapon. This is a focus spell with strength bonus vs. a two handed weapon with some extra class features and strength bonus vs. a buncha cantrips with casting stat bonus.It's starting to become silly when people compare unarmed strike damage to two-handed weapon damage.
You know, one of those is prescribed lower damage universally because it actually gets to use their hands. Please compare to other things like a finesse weapon before I start comparing multiclass cantrip damage to 10th level slots.
Yes, and one of them is being a martial class with access to martial weapons and is locked into using both hands on that weapon. Another uses 2 actions in a 3-action turn.
Dragon claws? Doesn't require any of those things.
Heres's the requirements to use it: Pop dragon claws every fight if you don't have a better third action. Use a cantrip and then claw someone if they run up to you, especially since you'll probably be popping a few boosts into Dex anyways. There, pretty standard use case found.
So long as bon mot, one for all and simply repositioning exist as options, I don't think that unused 3rd Acton will exist in any fight that matters. Mechanically, there isn't really any reason to ever pick draconic over genie or imperial if you're looking for an arcane bloodline as all it's focus spells are hilariously lackluster and it's granted spells aren't much better.
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So long as bon mot, one for all and simply repositioning exist as options, I don't think that unused 3rd Acton will exist in any fight that matters. Mechanically, there isn't really any reason to ever pick draconic over genie or imperial if you're looking for an arcane bloodline as all it's focus spells are hilariously lackluster and it's granted spells aren't much better.
Agreed. Even simply moving away and not ending your turn in melee is a better third action than the sure-to-get-you-killed dragon claws.
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Why would anyone use the low damage, highly risky dragon claw so long as offensive cantrips remain available? They're literally worse than most cantrips in every way! Nearing 9th-level, I can count the number of times my dragon sorceress has used dragon claw to attack on one hand.
Those of you who mock us for being disingenuous are yourselves disingenuous. Cut it out.
1 action vs 2 action is a very, very big
NOT "Worse in every way".I can use my claws AND cast another spell.
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It is important to me to give credit where credit is due. Because of this incredibly frustrating discussion, I have managed to come up with a really cool build for an evil demonic sorcerer and another really cool build for a draconic sorcerer. So, thank you.
EDIT: if you are curious about the builds shoot me a message and I'll share.
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Viable here, means good in a difficult situation and these abilities simply don't measure up.
I reject that definition of "good".
To me, something that I can use in lower threat battles in order to conserve my high level spells for the difficult battles IS good.
Although I've never played a sorcerer, I HAVE played a wild shaping druid. And that is EXACTLY how wild shape tends to work.
Against a level +4 boss I'm using all my highest level spells. The ones that I saved by turning into a bear or whatever in previous battles.
Edit : I just realized that this may be one source of the disagreements we're having. If you're in a campaign where the 1 minute adventuring day is a thing (maybe a wilderness campaign with lots of time to rest) then things like Wild Shape or Dragon Claws ARE much less valuable. One of their main purposes (NOT their only purpose, but one of their main ones) is to help conserve resources. If you're in a campaign where that isn't an issue then they absolutely ARE less valuable, quite posssibly to the point of being essentially non viable options
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Side note, I saw some people saying the claws are like resist energy, but they're explicitly tied to the blood magic effect which only lasts 1 round. That's pretty worthless in my estimation.
Dragon Claws give Resist Energy-like resistance the whole duration; the blood magic is +1 AC (or the alternative if Wyrmblessed instead).
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Clearly if some people are walking around assuming that a level 1 focus power has to be a good choice to use against a level +4 enemy at level 20, and other people are expecting it to offer a way to contribute decently in cleaning up lower level threats, there is not going to be any consensus on what the spell "should do."
I have yet to see any counter suggestion that seems even close to reasonable or different enough just from something like elemental toss to be something I would want in my game over the focus spell that currently exists.
Many people here do seem confused about how the spell works and how it interacts with blood magic.
The spell grants resistance for its duration.
It grants a +1 to AC for one round because of blood magic.
Using the claws does not require using truestrike everytime. Especially against lower level threats.
Using the claws with true strike also grants a +1 AC again. You can cast true strike, attack with the claws and raise your shield cantrip in one round. This gives you a +2 AC and a shield block for the round, using one 1st level spell. If you already have false life up at the start of battle, you are hardly helpless and might draw fire away from an ally/ help someone trigger their cool reaction. This works pretty well at mid and even mid high levels using minimal long term resources.
TO me, that is a pretty good functional focus power that clearly works very well with the bonus spells and blood magic options of the bloodline. The Draconic bloodline is a strong option. It is pretty remarkable to see people say that it is underpowered compared to the imperial or the genie bloodline. I have played PFS with 1 genie sorcerer and 1 imperial sorcerer and 3 draconic sorcerers from levels 1 to 3. The genie sorcerer used their focus spell 1 time. The imperial sorcerer never. The draconic sorcerers have used their focus spell at least once (one time in every encounter) in each adventure.
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Viable here, means good in a difficult situation and these abilities simply don't measure up.
I reject that definition of "good".
Sorry for quoting myself, but the edit window expired.
The other thing that wild shape or dragon claws together with some supporting stuff allows, even against that +4 boss, is to get into melee and help my allies. Its certainly not an ideal choice but sometimes it is the best thing that I can do to contribute.
If the boss swings at me that is a swing he isn't making at the melee sorts. That is useful. The boss losing 2 or 3 actions to put me down may be a good tradeoff.
Maybe I'm giving somebody a flank. That can be a good contribution, even against that level +4 boss.
Or maybe I roll high enough to actually connect. Lets say I need a 19 on my first blow and a 20 on the other 2. That translates to SOME damage over a few rounds. Not a lot but some.
I very likely have better options with my spells. But, sometimes, I just don't. A golem is an example. My direct attack spells are useless and maybe I don't have useful support spells.
I'm certainly NOT saying its a good option. But it might be my least bad option. Even against a L20 +4 level boss.
Being generous and assuming that APL+4 was a typo, it still doesn't make sense to compare tools for conserving spells throughout an adventuring day against super deadly boss fights. Everyone's behavior changes for those fights, and even barbarians and fighters are foolish if they stand toe to toe with such big bads.
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Viable here, means good in a difficult situation and these abilities simply don't measure up.
I reject that definition of "good".
To me, something that I can use in lower threat battles in order to conserve my high level spells for the difficult battles IS good.
In my experience, expending resources in low threat fights is mostly for speeding up a fight that you've already won. I've never needed to cast anything above electric arc in such encounters. Moderates get a low level spell or two and High+ are where you actually need to care about what's going on. This is why when I evaluate combat options I only care about how well they function in High+ threat combats.
That aside, something you can only use in low threat situations that you can also only use with additional investment is abysmal.
Dragon Claws give Resist Energy-like resistance the whole duration; the blood magic is +1 AC (or the alternative if Wyrmblessed instead).
Side note, I saw some people saying the claws are like resist energy, but they're explicitly tied to the blood magic effect which only lasts 1 round. That's pretty worthless in my estimation.
Yeah, but the odds that it will actually make much of a difference are pretty much nill.
Utterly useless if the enemy isn't attacking you with said damage (or worse, only does so once, prompting you to cast the spell and wasting an action against non-existent incoming energy attacks) and only mediocre even when the stars do align.
I have both resist energy AND dragon claws. Bother were forced onto the dragon sorcerer chasis with no alternatives. The former is more versatile because I can choose the energy type when appropriate, but is wasted as a bonus spell because it's not worth using a signature slot on or secondary higher level slots on. (If you think I'm wrong about that, please try and sell me on it.)
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a first level focus spell to be widely applicable and decently scaling if it's given to you mandatorily. I suppose you could say the resistance component does, but it's not quite the selling point of a spell called "Dragon Claws".
Much of this chatter doesn't apply to Glutton's Jaw, I think, which is in some ways an even harder sell. And I really don't get how people can spiritedly argue that fewer choices, and having perfectly sensible options be really underpowered, are actually fine or even good for the game. It's the same sheer disconnect that I got back when sturdy shields being the only viable way to shield block was argued about.
What sadist dm is hitting you with apl +4 encounters on a regular enough basis for that to be a build consideration? I'd never play with that dm.
It has nothing to do with a sadist dm. Just that I don't think how good something is should be determined from how well it functions under average conditions as opposed to extreme conditions.
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It's starting to become silly when people compare unarmed strike damage to two-handed weapon damage.
You know, one of those is prescribed lower damage universally because it actually gets to use their hands. Please compare to other things like a finesse weapon before I start comparing multiclass cantrip damage to 10th level slots.
Unarmed Strike damage, when used by someone who specializes in it, isn't that far behind in terms of damage, so it's not as silly as you make it out to be.
An 18 Strength Monk with 16 Dexterity is still hitting for 1D8 damage with full Strength modifier with the likes of the Mountain Stance. Heck, let's make things interesting and give them Dragon Stance, which is a D10. Most Reach weapons are D10s, some are even D8s! In fact, my Champion uses a D8 reach weapon, it's both flavorful, powerful, and fun to use based on his backstory. In contrast, unarmed weapons also don't even take up hands, which means those hands can hold and do other things, something the Monk should look at fixing up if their stance doesn't specifically require their hands to attack (Dragon Stance uses legs for "tail sweep" attacks). Holding potions and other consumables for buffs or in-combat healing is pretty smart tactics, especially since they're practically invincible while held.
But I'll tell you what, let's make it more fair and use a Finesse-type weapon. Our two-hander will use a Finesse D8 weapon, the Elven Curved Blade. The most likely contender here will be an Elven (or Half-Elven) character with the Elven Weapon Familiarity Ancestry feat if they need access or proficiency, so it's functional from Level 1, and for all martials, scales with proficiency like normal since it's considered a Simple weapon for them, which all Martials get scaling towards, even Rogues. Of course, Finesse is a strictly optional choice, and most Martials are still going to go full Strength, so for simplicity purposes, let's say all of our Martials have one and use it for combat. Let's compare the damage again:
Clawboi: 1D4 + 1D6 + 3 = 9 damage
Two-Hand Fighter: 1D8 + 4 = 8.5 damage
Thief Rogue: 1D8 + 1D6 + 4 = 12 damage
Dragon Barbarian: 1D8 + 4 + 4 = 12.5 damage
Precision Ranger: 1D8 + 1D8 + 4 = 13 damage
Alright, so, congratulations, you actually beat out the Fighter (and by proxy, the Monk and Champion, too,) that purposefully gimped themselves of damage dice strictly for flavor purposes. Bravo. You want a medal?
By the other comparisons, however, it's still significantly behind the other 3 martials who actually hit much harder in their optimal conditions (Barbarian Rage, Rogue Sneak Attack, Ranger Hunted Prey, etc.). The Rogue actually went up with damage in this case compared to not being relegated to two-handed weaponry, slight as it may be, since most Thief Rogues use D6 Finesse one-handed weapons, as most Finesse weapons which actually exceed D6 (like the Elven Curved Blade) are Martial-locked, which requires specialty proficiency for them to utilize; same goes with Advanced weapons. It cost a 1st level Ancestry feat, though, which could have been for things like Nimble Elf, Otherworldly Magic, et. al. The proficiency feat is something that could have been taken much later, where the impact is most noticeable (but really, only a 4 damage difference on-average by the endgame probably isn't worth an Ancestry feat, since Elves and Half-Elves get plenty of good Ancestry feats to work with).
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Alright, so, congratulations, you actually beat out the Fighter (and by proxy, the Monk and Champion, too,) that purposefully gimped themselves of damage dice strictly for flavor purposes. Bravo. You want a medal?
Yes! And, I appreciate you showing the math that reveals that a level 1 class ability of a full caster can out damage multiple martial classes.
EDIT: with a lower strength score at that!Yes please, show us the "cool" builds that actually contribute at apl+4 or vs a tpk difficulty horde and that actually use the schtick you keep insisting isn't awful.
What do your full casters normally do in those situations?
I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a first level focus spell to be widely applicable and decently scaling if it's given to you mandatorily. I suppose you could say the resistance component does, but it's not quite the selling point of a spell called "Dragon Claws".
Much of this chatter doesn't apply to Glutton's Jaw, I think, which is in some ways an even harder sell. And I really don't get how people can spiritedly argue that fewer choices, and having perfectly sensible options be really underpowered, are actually fine or even good for the game. It's the same sheer disconnect that I got back when sturdy shields being the only viable way to shield block was argued about.
Dragon Claws is not Elemental Toss. If you want Elemental Toss, I'd encourage you to play the elemental bloodline.
I agree, Glutton's Jaw is a harder sell.