Magic Mouth, you can defeat an any level rogue's trapfinding ability, the one unique ability, the thing they are supposed to be the best at, to justify the lack of power in other area's, with a second level spell. The rogue can not make a check to see it (which should be a perception check for the rogue, who can see magic traps). The rogue can not do anything to stop it (should be a disable devise check). Traps are now only necessary if you don't have someone nearby.
Any thief trying to get in on a second story window heist is now defeated by a 3rd level wizard, or a rich person that can afford to higher a 3rd level wizard, you can only steal from the poor which is a waste of time.
Please note: I play rogue's almost exclusively, I don't fully agree with a lot of the other arguments on the weakness of rogues, mine being that yes the rogue can't do as much damage, but he's the Trapfinder, I was wrong.
Second Note: this is not a pathfinder exclusive problem, it's a problem in all of 3rd edition.
I always considered this a missing part of the Magic Mouth spell.. I consider it a magic trap like symbols and other spells are.
Easy to fix (of course, one could say it was very easy to write down too).
Magic Mouth, you can defeat an any level rogue's trapfinding ability, the one unique ability, the thing they are supposed to be the best at, to justify the lack of power in other area's, with a second level spell. The rogue can not make a check to see it (which should be a perception check for the rogue, who can see magic traps). The rogue can not do anything to stop it (should be a disable devise check). Traps are now only necessary if you don't have someone nearby.
Any thief trying to get in on a second story window heist is now defeated by a 3rd level wizard, or a rich person that can afford to higher a 3rd level wizard, you can only steal from the poor which is a waste of time.
Please note: I play rogue's almost exclusively, I don't fully agree with a lot of the other arguments on the weakness of rogues, mine being that yes the rogue can't do as much damage, but he's the Trapfinder, I was wrong.
Second Note: this is not a pathfinder exclusive problem, it's a problem in all of 3rd edition.
I'm assuming you mean to use Magic Mouth to act as an alarm. It's not a bad idea for a home owner. Of course per the wording of the spell Magic Mouth only responds to visual or audible signals. So rogue needs to have a high stealth roll (for silence) and be invisible, covered in supernatural darkness (not normal darkness), or other similar vision imparing magic. Or if the rogue knows where it is through any number of means (detect magic, trapfinding *see below*, casing the house) it could simply have it covered from a distance in some mundane way. I picture a specially designed crossbow bolt that has a cloth attached in such a way as to cover the mouth.
Perhaps i'm missing something but I fail to see how a rogue can't detect the mouth with trapfinding, or without for that matter. Detect magic would work from 60 feet away. A first level caster or anyone else with detect magic could find a Magic mouth. If you want to assume the mouth is a trap (as I would) then trapfinding would work without Detect magic.
If you would please clarify why Magic Mouth is so "dangerous."
It happened in a recent session. The rogue disabled several alarms (pary was infiltrating) and then met to Magic Mouth set as an alarm.
Maybe the Rogue was able to not be seen but hide the cavalier was harder.
I ruled that the spell worked as a trap in everything.
Magic Mouth, you can defeat an any level rogue's trapfinding ability, the one unique ability, the thing they are supposed to be the best at, to justify the lack of power in other area's, with a second level spell. The rogue can not make a check to see it (which should be a perception check for the rogue, who can see magic traps). The rogue can not do anything to stop it (should be a disable devise check). Traps are now only necessary if you don't have someone nearby.
Any thief trying to get in on a second story window heist is now defeated by a 3rd level wizard, or a rich person that can afford to higher a 3rd level wizard, you can only steal from the poor which is a waste of time.
Please note: I play rogue's almost exclusively, I don't fully agree with a lot of the other arguments on the weakness of rogues, mine being that yes the rogue can't do as much damage, but he's the Trapfinder, I was wrong.
Second Note: this is not a pathfinder exclusive problem, it's a problem in all of 3rd edition.
I'm assuming you mean to use Magic Mouth to act as an alarm. It's not a bad idea for a home owner. Of course per the wording of the spell Magic Mouth only responds to visual or audible signals. So rogue needs to have a high stealth roll (for silence) and be invisible, covered in supernatural darkness (not normal darkness), or other similar vision imparing magic. Or if the rogue knows where it is through any number of means (detect magic, trapfinding *see below*, casing the house) it could simply have it covered from a distance in some mundane way. I picture a specially designed crossbow bolt that has a cloth attached in such a way as to cover the mouth.
Perhaps i'm missing something but I fail to see how a rogue can't detect the mouth with trapfinding, or without for that matter. Detect magic would work from 60 feet away. A first level caster or anyone else with detect magic could find a Magic mouth. If you want to assume the mouth is a trap (as I would) then...
I'd say stealth would work for the unseen part as well seeing as being invisible just gives you +40 to stealth if you aren't moving and +20 if you are. So even invisible it's still a stealth roll.
...Magic Mouth, you can defeat an any level rogue's trapfinding ability, the one unique ability, the thing they are supposed to be the best at, to justify the lack of power in other area's, with a second level spell. The rogue can not make a check to see it (which should be a perception check for the rogue, who can see magic traps). The rogue can not do anything to stop it (should be a disable devise check). Traps are now only necessary if you don't have someone nearby.
Any thief trying to get in on a second story window heist is now defeated by a 3rd level wizard, or a rich person that can afford to higher a 3rd level wizard, you can only steal from the poor which is a waste of time.
Please note: I play rogue's almost exclusively, I don't fully agree with a lot of the other arguments on the weakness of rogues, mine being that yes the rogue can't do as much damage, but he's the Trapfinder, I was wrong.
Second Note: this is not a pathfinder exclusive problem, it's a problem in all of 3rd edition.
I'm assuming you mean to use Magic Mouth to act as an alarm. It's not a bad idea for a home owner. Of course per the wording of the spell Magic Mouth only responds to visual or audible signals. So rogue needs to have a high stealth roll (for silence) and be invisible, covered in supernatural darkness (not normal darkness), or other similar vision imparing magic. Or if the rogue knows where it is through any number of means (detect magic, trapfinding *see below*, casing the house) it could simply have it covered from a distance in some mundane way. I picture a specially designed crossbow bolt that has a cloth attached in such a way as to cover the mouth.
Perhaps i'm missing something but I fail to see how a rogue can't detect the mouth with trapfinding, or without for that matter. Detect magic would work from 60 feet away. A first level caster or anyone else with detect magic could find a Magic mouth. If you want to assume the mouth is a trap (as I
I may have misrepresented my idea.
What I meant was that the spell needs either a visual or audible trigger.
Stealth is the easiest way to remove the Audible trigger.
Visual trigger is a little harder. The spell is stationary and constantly "searching," for lack of a better word. So you would need to somehow "blind" the spell. Magic Mouth specifically mentions using magical darkenss (and that mundane darkness does not fool the spell) as does Invisibility. The point of using invisiblity here is not to increase one's stealth roll. The point is to remove the visual trigger.
Using mundane stealth wouldn't work to remove the visual trigger. It's like trying to sneak past a guard who is staring at you. Mundane stealth works on living creatures because you take advantage of their inability to constantly watch the same spot. They blink, they look to one side, they fall asleep, etc. The magic spell does none of these things. It has a radius that it can see and hear constantly like a construct without resting, blinking, etc. Think of it as a modern high tech motion detector. If you're in it's radius and not covered in magic somehow it can see you.
I fail to see how any of this is a problem for a 20th-level Rogue. Stealth + invisibility or magical darkness and you're done.
Or just get the magic mouth inside an area of magical silence and let the thing go off.
EDIT:
Some more thoughts: Also, magic mouth isn't really a magical trap. It has many functions as a spell beyond serving as a watch dog. It's not like the symbol series, which only do one specific (harmful) thing.
Another tip-off is the fact that nowhere in the description of magic mouth does it say at what volume the mouth speaks, what range it can project its voice to, whether it can be muffled while it is talking, or even if it gets a perception check to detect silent movement-- all of which are your GM's call, and all of which tell me that this spell was never really intended to be a trap.
If some clever person wants to employ the spell as an alarm, that's all well and good, but its limitations don't make it overpowering in this regard.
And speaking of alarms, how is magic mouth worse than the alarm spell (which is also not a magical trap!)?
And speaking of alarms, how is magic mouth worse than the alarm spell (which is also not a magical trap!)?
In fact, alarm is another good example.
wesF... Just to pick nits I'll point out that you *could* stealth past a motion detecter. Granted you'd have to move at speeds far less than 15 a round, being much closer to 5 feet a minute (not sure the exact threshold for 'movement' but it's high enough I managed to sneak past).
It's not a pefect metaphor. But if you really want to nit pick I did say "high tech" and those have body heat sensors, infared, and i'm sure other generally better methods of detection that i am not familiar with. However, since we're talking about magic, which doesn't exist in the real world **Gasp**, it's a moot point.
In fact, alarm is another good example.
And speaking of alarms, how is magic mouth worse than the alarm spell (which is also not a magical trap!)?
I think this is an overestimation of what the Rogue's Trapfinding ability can do. If you disagree and want to house rule it, by all means, go to it, that's what house rules are for!
But the way this works isn't broken. These spells are not traps, because they don't cause direct harm.
A rogue (and his friends) all have a number of other ways of defeating these spells, and if we're really talking about 20th-level heists, a couple of 1st and 2nd level spells are going to be the least of your worries. :)
But the way this works isn't broken. These spells are not traps, because they don't cause direct harm.
Respectfully, call in a crapload of monsters is quite WORSE than spring up a blade, a poisoned dart or a spell most times.
Of course I can houserule it. The problem is, if I have to houserule too many things, there is something wrong. Expecially in the case of stuff that should be a base for the Rogue, and for certain kind of scenarios.
So, just what would be the the Stealth DC be then, as the Magic Mouth doesn't have a Perception score with which to make opposed checks with?
Of course I can houserule it. The problem is, if I have to houserule too many things, there is something wrong. Expecially in the case of stuff that should be a base for the Rogue, and for certain kind of scenarios.
But that's just it. The Rogue can defeat these measures, she just has to use means other than a single specific class ability. I'm still not convinced this is broken.
Trapfinding applies to traps. Spells like alarm and magic mouth are a different type of magical defense, but they aren't traps. A solo rogue has other reasonable ways to deal with these spells. Working as Intended, IMO.
I don't think it's overpowered to rule that these spells count as magical traps, but I'm worried that it may open a door to other interpretive abuses.
But that's just it. The Rogue can defeat these measures, she just has to use means other than a single specific class ability. I'm still not convinced this is broken.
Trapfinding applies to traps. Spells like alarm and magic mouth are a different type of magical defense, but they aren't traps. A solo rogue has other reasonable ways to deal with these spells. Working as Intended, IMO.
I don't think it's overpowered to rule that these spells count as magical traps, but I'm worried that it may open a door to other interpretive abuses.
Respectfully, I find very, very weird that a symbol trap is a magical trap, but an alarm is not. This is beating a trope to death.
AND yet another case of "spellcasters will manage it". Which is fine, I perfectly see a wizard dispel a magical defense. But IMHO if walks and quacks like a trap, rogues should be able to manage it too.
Respectfully, I find very, very weird that a symbol trap is a magical trap, but an alarm is not. This is beating a trope to death.AND yet another case of "spellcasters will manage it". Which is fine, I perfectly see a wizard dispel a magical defense. But IMHO if walks and quacks like a trap, rogues should be able to manage it too.
I see your point, and fully realize that this is pretty much an argument in semantics at this point. But a symbol trap gets triggered and does something directly to the person who triggered it. An alarm does not do this.
Not necessarily a case of "spellcasters will manage it." I said a solo rogue can handle these situations and I stand by that assertion. If you want to talk about a Rogue with no access to magic items, well, that's another case.
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So, just what would be the the Stealth DC be then, as the Magic Mouth doesn't have a Perception score with which to make opposed checks with?
It really does need one, doesn't it?
Give the thing a Perception bonus, either static, or affected by the caster's prime casting stat, and assume it's taking 20.
That way, invisibility effectively cancels it's advantage, which means most rogues will walk in past it, but it isn't an auto-pass for a clumsy intruder, invisible or not. The other invisible PCs could kick a stone, tilt a loose paving tile, brush the curtains, etc.
And a high-level rogue really should have access to magic, via UMD.
Even if they have awful Cha, they should be able to put enough ranks in to routinely use wands and scrolls of silence, invisibilty, dispel, gaseous form, etc.
We should just agree to disagree then.
Just another thing: people keep saying "solo rogue". The rogue my player played last session had to "clean the path" for the party.
No houserule, no rogue usefulness, in a scenario everybody expected he took the spotlight.
@Snorter: now UMD is not "cross class", so an oracle could do the same i guess.
We should just agree to disagree then.
Agreed! And here's another weird thing: sepia snake sigil doesn't appear to be a magical trap, either (although you do get a reflex save)!
Its a 20th level rogue. They've gotten that far through 20 levels of suckage, you're not supposed to be defeating them in the one area that they're good at.
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Dude has UMD, at 20th level if he isn't Batman, then he hasn't properly earned his levels. To say it in a less stupid way: being 20th level implies that your character has been around and done some things, fought monsters, and dealt with some rather crazy things. They should be prepared for just about anything, they have plans for when their plans go south, and plans for when those plans go south, etc. They shouldn't be completely unbeatable, but it can very well seem that way, because they didn't make it to level 20 by falling off a log.
Its a 20th level rogue. They've gotten that far through 20 levels of suckage, you're not supposed to be defeating them in the one area that they're good at.
The OP said this. the spell seems a trap, but RAW is not and beats the Rogue in the nuts, even if everybody and their granmas expect the exact opposite.
Its a 20th level rogue. They've gotten that far through 20 levels of suckage, you're not supposed to be defeating them in the one area that they're good at.The OP said this. the spell seems a trap, but RAW is not and beats the Rogue in the nuts, even if everybody and their granmas expect the exact opposite.
It just further proves that wizard > rogue. ;-)
It just further proves that wizard > rogue. ;-)Its a 20th level rogue. They've gotten that far through 20 levels of suckage, you're not supposed to be defeating them in the one area that they're good at.The OP said this. the spell seems a trap, but RAW is not and beats the Rogue in the nuts, even if everybody and their granmas expect the exact opposite.
Better not threadjack in class vs class. My point is not that a class should not do everything, or that certain actions should be performed only in one way (you can remove traps with a barbarian too! and I'm fine with that!).
What baffles me is that, IMHO, certain things should be well done by the rogues and are not.
This happened to other departments. See "you have to take a PrC to gain Hide in Plain sight", "you have to take a PRC to use safely poison, OR you must give up one of your your most iconic abilities".
People will disagree even more about this, I'm sure. This is just, you know, my opinion, man.
It just further proves that wizard > rogue. ;-)Its a 20th level rogue. They've gotten that far through 20 levels of suckage, you're not supposed to be defeating them in the one area that they're good at.The OP said this. the spell seems a trap, but RAW is not and beats the Rogue in the nuts, even if everybody and their granmas expect the exact opposite.Better not threadjack in class vs class. My point is not that a class should not do everything, or that certain actions should be performed only in one way (you can remove traps with a barbarian too! and I'm fine with that!).
What baffles me is that, IMHO, certain things should be well done by the rogues and are not.
This happened to other departments. See "you have to take a PrC to gain Hide in Plain sight", "you have to take a PRC to use safely poison, OR you must give up one of your your most iconic abilities".
People will disagree even more about this, I'm sure. This is just, you know, my opinion, man.
Down boy. I was making a joke. I forget sometimes that sarcasm doesnt translate as well in type.
My point was a second level spell cast by a 3rd level wizard at most might(and I stress might) inconvience a 20th level rogue for a second, but not much more.
All classes have strength's and weaknesses. However, any 3rd level character is unlikely to be much more than an inconvience for any 20th level character.
wesF, I think I didn't explain myself correctly. I'm NOT saying "Rogue is teh Suxx!" or things like that. Actually, I think that a lot of power level discussions are not relevant because assume PCs in a vacuum, thing that does not happen in game.
Nevertheless, I do think that "avoid multiclassing" and "streamline rules" was one of the purposes of the game (and i indeed think that the game is very good, I actually think is the best version played and my players agree).
Nevertheless, I find odd, in the case of the rogues, for these reasons, that features that should be "typcal" of the archetype the class represents, at least in my view, are missing, or you need to multiclass for that.
And UMD is not an answer sorry. Now is far more easy for most class UMD. Rogues are better of a lot of classes, but is no more a "better you are a bard or rogue or not even try to UMD".
Considering magic mouth is not considered a trap. I think it bears noting that it probably can't be hidden from a very simple detect magic spell.
Considering magic mouth is not considered a trap. I think it bears noting that it probably can't be hidden from a very simple detect magic spell.
There is range problem there. Detect magic's range is smaller what the range the Magic Mouth could activate on. At 15' per level after 4th level the range is greater than Detect Magic.
As for Stealth you can simply stealth past if you have some cover. Normal Darkness provides no cover though. So you need cover of some other sort or invisibility.
wesF, I think I didn't explain myself correctly. I'm NOT saying "Rogue is teh Suxx!" or things like that. Actually, I think that a lot of power level discussions are not relevant because assume PCs in a vacuum, thing that does not happen in game.
Nevertheless, I do think that "avoid multiclassing" and "streamline rules" was one of the purposes of the game (and i indeed think that the game is very good, I actually think is the best version played and my players agree).
Nevertheless, I find odd, in the case of the rogues, for these reasons, that features that should be "typcal" of the archetype the class represents, at least in my view, are missing, or you need to multiclass for that.
And UMD is not an answer sorry. Now is far more easy for most class UMD. Rogues are better of a lot of classes, but is no more a "better you are a bard or rogue or not even try to UMD".
Your arguments are valid, I just don't think magic mouth is a trap, and RAW agrees. On the other hand, RAW doesn't think sepia snake sigil is a trap either, which is a bit weird.
But here's a question for you: Should Rogues be able to disarm illusory script with disable device? Because I can definitely see how a clever use of this spell could be used as a trap or trigger for one, sort of like a low-level symbol of persuasion. There's that slippery slope I was talking about earlier.
As for hide in plain sight, I totally agree with you. How Rangers get that and Rogues don't, I'll never know. But that's getting a bit off-topic.
I'm assuming you mean to use Magic Mouth to act as an alarm. It's not a bad idea for a home owner.yes this is what i mean.
Of course per the wording of the spell Magic Mouth only responds to visual or audible signals. So rogue needs to have a high stealth roll (for silence) and be invisible, covered in supernatural darkness (not normal darkness), or other similar vision imparing magic. Or if the rogue knows where it is through any number of means (detect magic, trapfinding *see below*, casing the house) it could simply have it covered from a distance in some mundane way. I picture a specially designed crossbow bolt that has a cloth attached in such a way as to cover the mouth.
then what if the trigger is a window opening, or a door opening.
I used trapfinding to search the area, made a very high check, disarmed the trap that was there. but because i interacted with the trap, which is what the trigger for the magic mouth i set it off. making the whole damn thing a waste of time, making any check a waste of time, because any one can hire a 3rd level wizard. making me regret playing a rogue, i should have played a fighter, then i could have just kicked down the door, it would have been the same effect.
Perhaps i'm missing something but I fail to see how a rogue can't detect the mouth with trapfinding,
just the rules, that's all, yes a dm could rule it away, but mind didn't, first time i've felt completely useless as a rogue.
or without for that matter. Detect magic would work from 60 feet away. A first level caster or anyone else with detect magic could find a Magic mouth. If you want to assume the mouth is a trap (as I would) then...
I'm a 10th level rogue i didn't realize i needed to carry around all the trappings of a caster, including a way to cast dispel magic, i thought the class stood on it's own.
I'd say stealth would work for the unseen part as well seeing as being invisible just gives you +40 to stealth if you aren't moving and +20 if you are. So even invisible it's still a stealth roll.
What are you rolling against, magic mouth doesn't have a perception skill.
I fail to see how any of this is a problem for a 20th-level Rogue. Stealth + invisibility or magical darkness and you're done.
what is the score i'm rolling against? and is the only way to do this is to be a caster?
Or just get the magic mouth inside an area of magical silence and let the thing go off.
still defeats that 20th level rogue unless he's a caster, or has equipped himself to be a caster.
EDIT:
Some more thoughts: Also, magic mouth isn't really a magical trap. It has many functions as a spell beyond serving as a watch dog. It's not like the symbol series, which only do one specific (harmful) thing.Another tip-off is the fact that nowhere in the description of magic mouth does it say at what volume the mouth speaks, what range it can project its voice to, whether it can be muffled while it is talking, or even if it gets a perception check to detect silent movement-- all of which are your GM's call, and all of which tell me that this spell was never really intended to be a trap.
If some clever person wants to employ the spell as an alarm, that's all well and good, but its limitations don't make it overpowering in this regard.
again, a third level caster beats a 20th level rogue, at the thing rogues are supposed to be good at. it'd be like a 3rd level caster having a spell that made them immune to all damage from a even 20th fighter, unless the fighter was equipped to be a caster
And speaking of alarms, how is magic mouth worse than the alarm spell (which is also not a magical trap!)?
it's not, but you're not really contradicting me are you, you are adding to my problem.
In fact, alarm is another good example.
And speaking of alarms, how is magic mouth worse than the alarm spell (which is also not a magical trap!)?
I think this is an overestimation of what the Rogue's Trapfinding ability can do. If you disagree and want to house rule it, by all means, go to it, that's what house rules are for!
But the way this works isn't broken. These spells are not traps, because they don't cause direct harm.
A rogue (and his friends) all have a number of other ways of defeating these spells, and if we're really talking about 20th-level heists, a couple of 1st and 2nd level spells are going to be the least of your worries. :)
so if you can afford a trap (a possibly significant amount of money) you can afford a 3rd level wizard, no one can ever steal from you. primary ability of a rogue useless, why would it not be everywhere. and the rogue is taken down a notch in usefulness.
Dude has UMD, at 20th level if he isn't Batman, then he hasn't properly earned his levels. To say it in a less stupid way: being 20th level implies that your character has been around and done some things, fought monsters, and dealt with some rather crazy things. They should be prepared for just about anything, they have plans for when their plans go south, and plans for when those plans go south, etc. They shouldn't be completely unbeatable, but it can very well seem that way, because they didn't make it to level 20 by falling off a log.
sweet so as long as he's in effect a caster he's set, why not skip the whole thing, just be a caster. my problem is a 3rd level wizard/sorcerer takes out a 20th level rogue, unless the casts spells.
Edit: and the rogue not only has to have access to something with detect magic, but also ranks (at least one) in knowledge (arcana). you can't make that check untrained. also access to dispel magic, because there is no other way to get rid of the spell.
I'd say stealth would work for the unseen part as well seeing as being invisible just gives you +40 to stealth if you aren't moving and +20 if you are. So even invisible it's still a stealth roll.What are you rolling against, magic mouth doesn't have a perception skill.
That's a fun question considering the spell says specifically it responds to audible or visual triggers.
Funny thing is you can in fact replicate the effect with constructs. A door that screams bloody murder whenever it's opened by an unseen force does the exact same thing. You can't "disarm" a construct.
Also, nothing stops you from triggering the magic mouth, running away until everything calms down and then try another entry point.
If some clever person wants to employ the spell as an alarm, that's all well and good, but its limitations don't make it overpowering in this regard.again, a third level caster beats a 20th level rogue, at the thing rogues are supposed to be good at. it'd be like a 3rd level caster having a spell that made them immune to all damage from a even 20th fighter, unless the fighter was equipped to be a caster
Lets see, 2nd, 1st, and 0th level spells to pick from...
Invisibility, vanish, create pit, darkness, hideous laughter, grease, enthrall, suggestion, command, obscuring mist, hold person, fog cloud, spider climb, tree shape...
That's a fun question considering the spell says specifically it responds to audible or visual triggers.
Funny thing is you can in fact replicate the effect with constructs. A door that screams bloody murder whenever it's opened by an unseen force does the exact same thing. You can't "disarm" a construct.
Also, nothing stops you from triggering the magic mouth, running away until everything calms down and then try another entry point.
nah, you'd want to use the same entry point, it's the one that's been triggered, the other's should still have them active. can't always call the hired caster in in the middle of the night. again, i love playing rogues. i love the high skills. sneak attack is cool, only cuz you have to think about your placement in combat. but those parts are useless if i'm required to have spell access at high levels. (the required part is the troubling part)
Lets see, 2nd, 1st, and 0th level spells to pick from...
Invisibility, vanish, create pit, darkness, hideous laughter, grease, enthrall, suggestion, command, obscuring mist, hold person, fog cloud, spider climb, tree shape...
Invisiblity (+20 stealth, moving) 20th level fighter has 20 ranks in perception (or has to make an untrained check)
Create pit (DC is 10+1+5 16 (with a 20 stat and most characters are not starting with a stat that high)) fighter has a +6 to reflex saves, with a 10 dex
Darkness doesn't stop the fighter, just makes him have to roll a check, and if the darkness is cast on the fighter, the DC is lowish (50/50 shot)
hideous laughter same problem with create pit except will save
ect.....
My problem is that this spell (and other spells like it) completely defeat the rogues primary, and only unique ability unless it's another class, not just limit the effectiveness
so if you can afford a trap (a possibly significant amount of money) you can afford a 3rd level wizard, no one can ever steal from you. primary ability of a rogue useless, why would it not be everywhere. and the rogue is taken down a notch in usefulness.
You're acting like this is some unstoppable combo that completely nullifies a Rogue. The many ways that magic mouth can be nullified have been pointed out.
You want it done in a way such that a rogue needn't use UMD, multi-classing, or the abilities of allies to do it. This can be done through magic items. Your 20th-level rogue doesn't have a ring, or even potion, of invisibility? Enter, trigger the alarm, find a good hiding place inside, and wait until things die down.
If you think you should be able to take on challenges without having to rely on magic gear, you are playing a different game than the rest of us.
Funny thing is you can in fact replicate the effect with constructs. A door that screams bloody murder whenever it's opened by an unseen force does the exact same thing. You can't "disarm" a construct.
This.
Also, does your Rogue not case the places he's planning on breaking into? In this impenetrable fortress of a thousand magic mouths triggered to windows and doors, are there no chimneys? No way to tunnel in from below? How do the owners enter and leave? Maybe some research is required, disguise yourself if necessary, etc. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Trapfinding is not the end-all, be-all of the Rogue.
In a world where the only way for a Rogue to gain entry to someplace is to come through a door or window, yeah, this combo would be pretty potent.
You're acting like this is some unstoppable combo that completely nullifies a Rogue. The many ways that magic mouth can be nullified have been pointed out.
I am
You want it done in a way such that a rogue needn't use UMD, multi-classing, or the abilities of allies to do it. This can be done through magic items. Your 20th-level rogue doesn't have a ring, or even potion, of invisibility? Enter, trigger the alarm, find a good hiding place inside, and wait until things die down.
a thing of invisibility won't stop it, it just makes it not working if it's triggered by someone walking by. why anyone would set it up like this i don't know.
If you think you should be able to take on challenges without having to rely on magic gear, you are playing a different game than the rest of us.
No i just don't want to have to rely on being another class, if the only way for a 20th level rogue to stop a 3rd level character from detecting it is by having access to UMD then why would i need ranks in stealth. it causes skills that are required, and other skills to become unnecessary. instead of disable device, i have UMD, instead of disarm trap i have UMD, instead of stealth i have UMD, so why am i a rogue, i could just play a caster. If i could disarm the spell, like i could a higher level spell that is labeled a trap i would have no problem.
Funny thing is you can in fact replicate the effect with constructs. A door that screams bloody murder whenever it's opened by an unseen force does the exact same thing. You can't "disarm" a construct.
What caster level do you have to be to make that golem? the construct does have a perception check, meaning i can sneak by it. and i would want the ability to turn off that effect, that is a trap, even if it doesn't do physical harm.
Also, does your Rogue not case the places he's planning on breaking into? In this impenetrable fortress of a thousand magic mouths triggered to windows and doors, are there no chimneys? No way to tunnel in from below? How do the owners enter and leave? Maybe some research is required, disguise yourself if necessary, etc. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Trapfinding is not the end-all, be-all of the Rogue.
In a world where the only way for a Rogue to gain entry to someplace is to come through a door or window, yeah, this combo would be pretty potent.
How would i know about these spells? if it was a "Magic trap" ie a spell cast on something with the intent to trigger should someone enter unlawfully trapfinding would cover, both the finding of the spell and the disarming. if i don't have a wand of detect magic and UMD, i don't know there is a spell, and if i don't also have knowledge (arcana) i can't identify the spell. so yes, in that place the rogue would try to sneak in, get found out, and have to do a run. and again, that's at 20th level.
Disguise yourself. Pay some street urchins to throw a rock through the window and see if an alarm is triggered. If so, you know the dreaded combo is there and can plan accordingly. If not, then you're in like Flynn.
And no UMD needed for rings, potions, or oil of darkness for that matter.
Guess what, rogues can't really sneak attack on their own either. Okay, sure, they can get 1 on the surprise round if they go first. Then they can hit ONCE every round by doing move action to feint, standard attack. Whoopie! That fighter? Hes doing full-round attacks that dwarf your piddly sneak attack damage every round. He has more AC and HP too!
You haven't even mentioned arcane lock. It lasts FOREVER. You can't open it without a dispel magic or knock spell. Or you can break the door I suppose. Throw alarm on it, and the rogue can't get within 20 feet to even look at it to see if its locked or trapped. You can make that one permanent too! Unless you have a way to go ethereal/astral (in which case, why do you have to unlock doors/disable traps anyway?)
Rogues are great for breaking into mundane areas. You want to get into the magical stuff, time to break out some magic of your own, or get caught. You know why you play a rogue over a wizard/cleric/other caster? You get evasion, when you accidentally do set that trap off, you don't fry because of it. You can stealth really well, and avoid combats. You have sneak attack, which lets you contribute in combat, all day with the fighter. You have LOTS of skills, which lets you cover any holes the 2+int fighter and 2+int wizard have left. You can disable magical traps, all day long. The wizard only has so many dispel magics. Every class has its things it can do, things which may overlap with another class, and things that most people can do. Its up to you to play it how you want to.
You don't have to take stealth, you've chosen to. You don't have to take disable device, you've chosen to. You don't have to take knowledge(arcana) you've chosen to. Why did you choose these things? So you can break into magically secured areas. Why do you refuse to take UMD which also helps with this? Do you also not wear armor, use weapons, or any equipment?
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sweet so as long as he's in effect a caster he's set, why not skip the whole thing, just be a caster. my problem is a 3rd level wizard/sorcerer takes out a 20th level rogue, unless the casts spells.
Edit: and the rogue not only has to have access to something with detect magic, but also ranks (at least one) in knowledge (arcana). you can't make that check untrained. also access to dispel magic, because there is no other way to get rid of the spell.
8 skill points/level + int mod, also even casters need magic items to get by, especially in the higher levels where there are things that are a bit more absolute than in the lower levels, it just takes a few more to be a non-caster (weapons armor whatnot) also there are something casters simply cannot do that non-caster classes can do. Most classes aren't built to operate on their own, though if you are careful and prepared you can make any class able to operate on their own.
Magic Mouth, you can defeat an any level rogue's trapfinding ability, the one unique ability, the thing they are supposed to be the best at, to justify the lack of power in other area's, with a second level spell. The rogue can not make a check to see it (which should be a perception check for the rogue, who can see magic traps). The rogue can not do anything to stop it (should be a disable devise check). Traps are now only necessary if you don't have someone nearby.
Any thief trying to get in on a second story window heist is now defeated by a 3rd level wizard, or a rich person that can afford to higher a 3rd level wizard, you can only steal from the poor which is a waste of time.
Please note: I play rogue's almost exclusively, I don't fully agree with a lot of the other arguments on the weakness of rogues, mine being that yes the rogue can't do as much damage, but he's the Trapfinder, I was wrong.
Second Note: this is not a pathfinder exclusive problem, it's a problem in all of 3rd edition.
Well, it does balance out the fact that the rogue is in all other ways completely broken.
1. I agree that Alarm, Magic Mouth and SSS should all be considered traps and have played it that way as far as I can remember.
2. A rogue having UMD isn't "not being a rogue"; UMD was long a unique and powerful ability of the rogue (and bard), and while it's been opened up to other classes, so has stealth; that doesn't mean stealth isn't within the stereotype of the D&D rogue. So is the case with UMD. One of the stereotypical D&D rogues schticks is being a fringe caster using whatever strange devices he can get to use magic. And they've been portrayed like this in D&D works for a long time; just look at Jarlaxle Baenre from Salvatore's books, who's basically the incarnation of the christmas tree effect but in a quite cool way, or even the lead person from the frakkin wonderfully awful D&D movie!
UMD is very much something that any level 5+ rogue should use EXTENSIVELY. He aids all his non-magic skills with magic. Invisibility doesn't replace stealth, it empowers stealth (and is more or less required past a certain level).
Now, there are a few bad eggs in the basket. Things like Spider Climb which more or less replaces Climb,for example.
Knock is kind of a bad egg, because you make a check with a 10 + CL bonus, so a wizard will be better at knocking than a rogue. Personally I'd have preferred if it was "make a disable device check with a bonus equal to 10 + CL"; that way, a wizard would be decent due to high caster level, but a rogue would be excellent due to high DD skills. And in-game, this is of course explained as the wizard being great at manipulating the force, but the rogue being great at knowing how the force should be manipulated to disable the lock.
3. Note that magic mouth is limited by it's trigger. Since magic mouth is most useful in an area with a lot of people, where an alarm with potentially low sound strength can actually be of value, exactly how should you make up the trigger instructions, so it doesn't go off by just anyone?
Well, it does balance out the fact that the rogue is in all other ways completely broken.
I don't know if you're sarcastic or not, but the rogue has together with the barbarian and more than those two the monk, been considered the classes that are "weakest" in PF. Of course, some of it is hyperbole, but with statements like that, you're going to have to explain what would be broken with it.
Magic Mouth is not a trap. It is just a warning device. It is no different than dropping an alarm spell in the hallway out side of the BBEG's door to give him enough time to buff up.
Traps are traditionally things that do damage in some form or cause status affects. I can see how some can see an alarm as a trap, but that is not the game definition of a trap.
Many BBEG's know you are in their HQ before you get to them anyway. Even if there is no BBEG having one bad guy run off to raise the alarm has the same affect.
Magic Mouth is not a trap. It is just a warning device. It is no different than dropping an alarm spell in the hallway out side of the BBEG's door to give him enough time to buff up.
Traps are traditionally things that do damage in some form or cause status affects. I can see how some can see an alarm as a trap, but that is not the game definition of a trap.
Many BBEG's know you are in their HQ before you get to them anyway. Even if there is no BBEG having one bad guy run off to raise the alarm has the same affect.
This kills a character concept. An high level burglar should get rid of things like alarms.
@Stingburka:
1. Yeah, it's what I do too. Easy fix - but I find annoying that rogues are full of things like this, as explained above.
2. As said above, one can't say that UMD it's a "fix" because, unlike 3.5, most classes can UMD decently wands past a certain level. Is not a feature of rogues and bards anymore. It's true that every class will use items, and I don't think of course that a fighter should fly because past a certain level, for certain gamestyles, is required for them to fly.
I just feel that in this and other cases (you have to multiclass to be the best in HIDE IN SHADOWS, you have to choose between two iconic features) the rogues has been spoiled of something that was "his" thing. I could be wrong, of course, but this is what I feel.
3. In my adventure, the PCs were infiltrating into a fortress lost to the enemy. The enemy big boss is an HIIIGH level super-duper eldright knight. he managed to restore the old traps AND to place alarms and similar stuff. The rogue and the ranger were the scouts, and managed to "clean the path" through a tunnel. The enemies in the secret tunnel were not strong, but were fast. A magic mouth overlooked, and the alarm would have been triggered (with subsequent, hard-beating reinforcements arriving).
I had to change the spell to avoid a "lol you lose" situation for a PC, when everybody expected this was his specialization.
Would the minor magic rogue talent work if you chose detect magic? I mean concept wise.