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Witch is a class that's considered underwhelming by many. It can be built well in a right campaign, but can also be disastrously weak in different circumstances due to its focus on hexes (which can be too situational) and familiar (which is not something an entire class should depend on). Compared to the likes of Bard, Cleric, or Druid, Witch sacrifices its durability (with 6 HP per level and no armor proficiency); compared to Sorcerer and Wizard, Witch sacrifices its spellcasting (getting 3 spells per level like non-specialized spellcasters instead of their 4). All these classes have their own additional tools, often as powerful as what Witch gets to compensate for its weaknesses. Most homebrewers try to buff Witch's strong side, the Hexes and ability to Sustain Spells with Cackle. That's a valid path, but I prefer another one.
The Playtest Witch was a specialized spellcaster, getting 4 spells slots per level, and wasn't very different from its finalized form. The most meaningful change, besides losing one fourth of its spells, was that Basic Lesson got separated into a feat and Patron Themes, with focus spells converted into very powered-down one-action cantrips. It was a positive change, but I don't consider it to be that overwhelming. Hexes are no Compositions, being much more situational, and, in current form, are not something that a class should be built on.
Thus, I propose a buff in two steps:
1) Make Witch a specialized 4-slots-per-level spellcaster like in Playtest.
2) Remove some unnecessary restrictions from the weaker Hexes, with Shroud of Night affecting all creatures without Greater Darkvision, and Wilding Word affecting every creature type.
While that's a powerful buff, I don't think it to be overwhelming. There are five points of comparison:
1) Fervor Witch and Cloistered Cleric are both prepared Divine casters. Witch gains more slots, Stoke the Heart, a familiar, and a bigger selection of focus spells. Cleric gains Divine Font (which I consider to be comparable to the expanded spellcasting, maybe even better with investment in Charisma), more HP, a domain, better Will saving throws, possibility of specializing in Heal/Harm, and, most importantly, access to the entire divine list without needing to Learn any Spells. Overall, I think they are equal, with each having their own niche, instead of Cleric being overwhelmingly superior.
2) Primal Witches and Druid are both prepared Primal spellcasters, but Druid gains much better defense, having access to Hide armor and more HP, better Will saving throws, much better focus spells (or comparable ones, if Witch has access to Glacial Heart), order benefits like an animal companion, and, again, access to their entire spell list instead of a small slice of learned spells. Again, in my opinion, the buffed spellcasting evens those odds.
3) Occult Witches were clearly inferior to Bards in almost every respect. Inspire Courage and Dirge of Doom are much more powerful than Hexes, and Bards also have 8 HP per level and access to light armor. This way, at least, Witch is better at actual spellcasting.
4) Wizard is a harder sell. They now have similar spellcasting (with specialist wizards trading the restrictions on prepared spells for one more versatile spell of the highest level, and universalists being straight up more versatile with their slots), Patron Familiar is slightly inferior to Arcane Thesis, because Wizard can actually choose theirs, and Spell Substitution/Blending is no joke, and, finally, the school spell is put against Discern Secrets. The Hex wins, because Witch can get actually good focus spells, but Wizard has access to Clever Counterspell and Spell Penetration too. Overall, I'd say that Buffed Witch may be slightly more powerful, but Wizard still has a niche in other Arcane Theses.
5) Sorcerer puts spontaneous spellcasting, blood spells, and Blood Magic against prepared spellcasting, Hexes, and Patron Familiar. Blood Magic is unique, while a familiar is not, but the same can be said about Hexes. Still, spontaneous spellcasting will always have its niche, and Charisma is a stronger key stat due to Demoralize and Bon Mot existing.
By and large, the buff seems to make Witch more or less as powerful as other spellcasters without the need to comprehensively alter every Hex or class feature, which is a win in my book. I'm open to your opinions on the matter.
4 spell slots without any limitation seems a bit too strong.
I think you underestimate the limitations of the other 4-slot casters a bit.
Universalist Wizards are limited to prepare 3 different spells per level and can use their "4th" spellslot only to recast one they've already used. I personally think repeating spells is best left to the spontaneous casters and would nearly always prepare a different spell in each slot on a Wizard. So a Specialist would have more flexibility than a Universalist in my book. And yet, even the Specialist is limted in the use of his 4th slot as he can use it only to prepare spells of a particuar school.
A sorcerer can cast all his spells spontaneously, but his repertoire is quite limited. He can choose 3 spells per level and gains a 4th one from his bloodline. Even if you find a bloodline that has only spells you'd actually want (unlikely, in my experience), a very large number of those spells will become useless rather qickly unless you either set them as signature spells or re-learn them at a higher level. As a result, most sorcerer repertoires are quite bit less flexible then they appear to be at first glance.
I don't mind the witch having 4 spell slots but they should not be without any limitation. Maybe look for a fitting school or trait and limit the slot to spells with that school/trait? My only gripe with that is that non-school traits are often not broad enough to give a good slection and limiting by school traits is probably too close to specialist wizards.
Anyway, I would add some form of limitation to the additional spell slot. Otherwise the witch's spellcasting becomes superior to any other class.
I keep thinking about Focus Spells as a great mechanic that is unfortunately held back by a lack of options.
Giving more, diverse Focus Spells to the classes that use them (not all of them really need more; the Bard is probably fine, for example) would go a long way towards making the Witch more viable.
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I think you underestimate the limitations of the other 4-slot casters a bit.
Being a prepared spellcaster without armor proficiency and don't have auto-access to all common tradition spells and don't having something like thesis and divine font isn't enough?
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I think you underestimate the limitations of the other 4-slot casters a bit.Being a prepared spellcaster without armor proficiency and don't have auto-access to all common tradition spells and don't having something like thesis and divine font isn't enough?
First of all, the familiar Thesis is basically what the Witch gets. It might not be the strongest choice, but it is nearly a perfect copy of the Wizard thesis. Even stronger since you can replace your familiar much easier. Arcane Bond will still leave the Wizard ahead, since it's definitely more powerful than Phase Familiar.
But even then: No, I don't think it is enough to balance 4 unrestricted slots.
How many different spells does an average character cast per spell level you think? Over their whole adventuring career and not counting heightened from lower levels. Maybe a dozen? In fact, the numbers are quite a bit lower in my experience. With significantly dwindling numbers as the spell levels progress.
There's sorcerers who hardly ever use their Bloodline abilities. I know mine never did. Knowing 4 spells per level was easily enough for me to never felt like I had nothing to do, even with one of them being locked by my bloodline. Did I have the one perfect spell for any situation? Nope. But I've hardly ever seen anyone pull this off unless they had substantial foreknowledge of the things to come - which is pretty damn rare, all things concidered.
Knowing few spells sucks, don't get me wrong. But since you don't have to worry about Signature spells or spell schools you can do with your slots whatever you want. Prepare only heightened fireballs in your 7th level slots if you want. A Wizard can't do that unless he specifically happens to be an Evoker.
I'm not opposed to the witch getting more spells in some manner. I just don't think giving her an unrestricted extra slot across all 9 levels is a good idea.
That being said, I'd be fine with the witch getting more spells known for free than a Wizard. Maybe like 3 or 4 per level up instead of 2? They are accessing the knowledge of a higher being rather than doing lots of study on their own, after all. It would also help to close the gap between them and druids/clerics.
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That being said, I'd be fine with the witch getting more spells known for free than a Wizard. Maybe like 3 or 4 per level up instead of 2?
No, that wouldn't be nearly enough. Even if Witch got access to the entire spell list automatically, I'd still rate Bard, Cleric, and Druid significantly higher.
Maybe look for a fitting school or trait and limit the slot to spells with that school/trait? My only gripe with that is that non-school traits are often not broad enough to give a good slection and limiting by school traits is probably too close to specialist wizards.
That is a solution, but I dislike it due to its inelegance. Choosing by school traits clashes with the theme and flavor of Witch class, and is too close to specialist Wizards too. I can whip up a custom restriction for each Patron Theme pretty easily (only spells with Will saving throws for Curse, only heals and summons for Wild, etc.), but it'll be hard to balance and very heavy-handed. House rules are at their best when they are concise and easy to understand and remember.
I personally think you overvalue how much of a restriction specialization (or universalism) is. I played as a Wizard a few times (that's my favorite class, even in 2e), and I didn't have much trouble filling the specialist slots with school spells. Sure, sometimes you'd want to prepare something else in that slot, but the situations where there are no spells of a particular school that fit into a slot of a particular level were fairly rare - almost nonexistent, if you were willing to be creative. A spare True Strike, Feather Fall, False Life, or Magic Missile never hurts, and Drain Bonded Item is so powerful a feature that I'd choose a specialist Wizard spellcasting with DBI instead of a buffed Witch's one any day of the week.
Universalism is likewise fine - the fact that you're unable to prepare a fourth spell per level is offset by effectively having a versatile selection of the three spells you did prepare, and in my opinion, being able to sometimes flexibly choose to cast a second True Strike or Haste instead of Fireball is well worth the hassle. There's no need to divide prepared and spontaneous casters like that - Universalist simply has a combination of both worlds, which is not an objective drawback. Not to mention the ability to cascade your spells with Bond Conservation.
We can agree to disagree on the matter of Wizard's spellcasting restrictions. However, I must say that even if Witch's spellcasting, in vacuum, becomes superior to any other class, is that a problem when other classes' features may serve as a counterweight? The classes are balanced as the whole, and besides, Paizo didn't see a problem with sharing a playtest class with the spellcasting I propose - there's nothing wrong with it from the design perspective. They only ended up changing it as a response to the need to shift the focus to Hexes (to the detriment of the class, in my opinion).
I won't comment much on Sorcerer, given that I don't have much experience with the class, but Sorcerer still has 4 slots that they can use to cast any of the three remaining spells. This restriction is less of a big deal to them than to the prepared spellcasters, who must cast the fourth spell they have; the bloodline spells can be treated as a bonus you can sometimes cast, not as an obligation to fulfill.
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I would prefer no change to the spellcasting, but a significant boost to the number and variety of cantrip hexes that a witch can obtain.
I would prefer no change to the spellcasting, but a significant boost to the number and variety of cantrip hexes that a witch can obtain.
Agree. Hexes are what makes the witch, and instead of trying to make them on par with spellcasting, adding options for the (Cantrip) Hexes seems like a much better solution.
Options:
- Choose a second hex cantrip.
- Fix some of the existing ones (Example: Clinging ice can do damage on sustain, but new save every sustain)
- More (variety in) Lessons.
- Add flexibility in spells from Patrons and lessons (choose from the following list: 1,2,3)
I see. Thanks for your feedback. Well then, I'm thinking about making an alternative to the buff I proposed, focusing now on the hexes to make them as powerful as Bard's compositions. While that's a more cumbersome solution, it's also more customizable, as Witch is a multi-tradition caster, and some lists should have more powerful hex cantrips.
I'm talking about compositions because of this post:
…The implication when that question was asked, and during the discussions on the topic, was that cantrip hexes should be as powerful as bard options, and the selection should be expandable. The loss of armor, weapon proficiency, and HP compared to bard was supposed to pay for the familiar.
…
I'd also like to see more hex cantrip options that have more raw power, on the order of a single target Inspire Courage. I still can't imagine how a single target Inspire Courage is too strong. If that's outside the realm of possibility then Bards should be straight up nerfed.
in this thread. It was talking about making Witch better through new sourcebooks, hence more options; but this is a House Rules subforum, so we can do better and fix the starting hex cantrips themselves.
Let's look at Inspire Courage. This cantrip is ridiculously strong compared to what Witch gets, giving +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, and also saving throws against fear - all this in a positively colossal 60-foot radius, applying exclusively to allies. There is no limit to its uses (aside from 1 composition/turn limitation, which hexes share too for some reason), it doesn't provoke Attack of Opportunity, it can be lengthened with a very efficient focus spell, and there are numerous alternatives that are as powerful as this cantrip and can be picked up with feats.
What's worse, Bard is better at everything else in its chassis too. The class has light armor, more HP, more skills, better weapons, better Perception, better Will saves (why??), and comparable Fortitide and Reflex. All Witch gets in return is prepared spellcasting with the need to learn spells (and enigma bard with Esoteric Polymath is better even here), a really good familiar, some focus spells she needs to buy with feats, and a possibility of getting another tradition. Honestly, hexes should be better than compositions. Way better, I'd say. But I'll be considerate and make them comparable.
The hexes are all single target buffs or debuffs. The sustained duration is… interesting, but to match AoE compositions, I'd say we need to make hexes last longer on their target without the action tax. I'd like to make the duration an Int-mod of rounds, but nothing in 2e uses that format, so we'll use 3 rounds - the basic duration of Lingering Composition - and try to adjust their power to be roughly equal to Inspire Courage on a single target. I'll also follow the example of Dirge of Doom, so hexes will affect their targets without saving throw.
Let's start with Fervor. Divine is the weakest list of the four by general consensus, balanced only by Divine Font on the Clerics, so Stoke the Heart should be the most powerful hex as well.
Stoke the Heart: 1 action verbal, 30 feet range, targets 1 creature, duration 3 rounds.
Intense fervor fills the target creature, empowering their blows. The target gains a +2 status bonus to the damage rolls and +1 status bonus to saving throws against fear effects.
Heightened (+1) The status bonus to damage increases by 1.
With +1 to attack rolls amounting to around 10% damage increase (or 15 to 20% comparative damage increase), I'd say that 2 to 11 scaling damage bonus seems about right. The only concern is the area damage of spells that this hex empowers too, but for a class-defining ability of a Divine spellcaster that you can't improve with feats (and divine blasting is piss-poor too, so this would work best on a second spellcaster), it should be this powerful.
The other themes are next. Primal is a good list, rougly equal to Occult and slightly worse than Arcane, so the following cantrips will be rougly equal too, with Discern Secrets being the weakest.
Spirit Object: 1 action verbal, 30 feet range, targets 1 unattended object up to 1 Bulk.
Using a sliver of Baba Yaga's power, you briefly bring an object to life. The object gains a means of locomotion, such as sprouting chicken legs, and Strides up to 25 feet to a space you decide within range. If you spent 2 actions Casting the Spell, the object then attacks one creature of your choice adjacent to its new space. Make a melee spell attack roll against the creature. On a success, the creature takes bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage (as appropriate for the object) equal to 1d8 plus your spellcasting ability modifier, and on a critical success, it takes double damage.
Heightened (+1) Increase the maximum Bulk of the target by 1 and the damage by 1d8.
Evil Eye: 1 action verbal, 30 feet range, targets 1 creature, duration 3 rounds.
Your fix your eye on the target, imposing a malevolent hex. The target becomes frightened 1. This condition value can't be reduced below 1 while you can see the target for the duration of the spell.
Nudge Fate: 1 action verbal, 30 feet range, targets 1 creature, duration 3 rounds.
You read slightly into the future and give fate a tiny push to achieve the result you desire. Once during the duration, when the target attempts an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw and a +2 status bonus would increase the degree of success, you grant the target a +2 status bonus to the check retroactively, changing the outcome appropriately. The spell then ends.
Shroud of Night: 1 action verbal, 30 feet range, targets 1 creature, duration 3 rounds.
Drawing your hand in a sweeping gesture, you shroud the target in a veil of night. The target's eyes are blanketed in murky darkness. Unless the target has greater darkvision, other creatures are concealed to it.
Discern Secrets: 1 action verbal, 30 feet range, targets 1 creature, duration 3 rounds.
When you Cast the Spell, the target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive. The check is no longer secret, and the target gains a +1 status bonus to the skill or Perception used for the roll.
Heightened (5th) You can target two creatures instead of one.
Wilding Word: 1 action verbal, 30 feet range, targets 1 creature, duration 3 rounds.
With a few words, you convince a creature you are kindred spirits, making it reluctant to harm you and your allies. When the target attempts an attack roll or skill check that would harm you or your allies, it takes a –2 status penalty to its roll, and the target also becomes sickened 1 each time it damages you or your allies.
Clinging Ice: 1 action verbal, 30 feet range, targets 1 creature, duration 3 rounds.
Freezing sleet and heavy snowfall collect on the target's feet and legs, dealing 1d6 cold damage and imposing a –5-foot circumstance penalty to its Speeds.
Heightened (+2) The damage increases by 1d6.
We can also make a 1st or 4th level feat that gives Witch another hex. Something like Versatile Patron from Deadmanswalking's house rules.
Oh, I made a post full of buff proposals for hexes a while ago. Would've shared it earlier if that had come up initially — maybe the alternate takes will help with ideas.
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Oh, I made a post full of buff proposals for hexes a while ago. Would've shared it earlier if that had come up initially — maybe the alternate takes will help with ideas.
Yeah, I've seen them. Those proposals are interesting, but seemingly made with buffing it to the level of the strongest hex in mind, maybe slightly higher; my proposal tries to bring hexes to the level of Inspire Courage.
Still, this Nidge Fate idea is very good, and I can add disabling light blindness on allies to Shroud of Night.