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I wish that Paizo had included an example where the fighter defeated their CMB by 35 so he could Bull Rush them a total of 40ft, except he would only be able to BR them a total of 30ft because his available movement for that round would be expended.
An example of bullrush as part of a full attack would be even better.
Your example above is stil a standard action leaving a move action with what there is left of the base speed after the Bull Rush.
I like a build Wonderstell proposed in a thread long past... this build involved the Flying Blade Swashbuckler's Disruptive Counter Deed and the Warrior Poet Samurai's Petals to the Wind Flourish to effectively negate incoming attacks. There was a level of Reliquarian Occultist with the Transmutation Implement, but I cannot remember exactly what it was doing for the build (other than helping Will saves).
Flying Blade
1(B). Weapon Finesse
1. Combat Reflexes
2.
3. Extra Panache
Reliquarian Occultist
4. Transmutation Implement
Flying Blade
5(B). Weapon Trick
5. Extra Mental Focus
6(B). Improved Critical
Warrior Poet
7. Quickdraw
I wish that Paizo had included an example where the fighter defeated their CMB by 35 so he could Bull Rush them a total of 40ft, except he would only be able to BR them a total of 30ft because his available movement for that round would be expended.An example of bullrush as part of a full attack would be even better.
Your example above is stil a standard action leaving a move action with what there is left of the base speed after the Bull Rush.
Yeah, technically you'd still have a Move Action, but you wouldn't be able to use it to Move because you already spent your movement as a part of your Standard to Bull Rush, but you could use your Move Action to sheathe/draw a weapon or retrieve a stored item if you wanted.
@Wonderstell It's pretty simple. If you're a human with 30ft movement speed, then you have 30ft of available movement in the round. It's not a "separate pool" of available movement, so stop putting words in my mouth.
Oh? I read this post and figured you still held your opinion from the previous thread. My mistake if that's not what you've been arguing for, but then I genuinely don't understand how you rationalize your interpretation.
If you're a human with 30ft movement speed, then you have 30ft of available movement in the round.
If you choose to spend a move action for movement, yes. It would be more apt to call it potential movement. If you don't spend actions on movement then you have exactly 0ft of available movement, with the exception of the 5-ft step.
That's a pretty well understood rule. If you don't spend actions on movement you don't have any available movement. You start out with 0ft of available movement in the round. Them's the rules.
@VoodistMonk
I actually got a chance to play it recently but had to shuffle around some feats. If I remember correctly the thread was about a throwing build so Slashing Grace wouldn't work, but I recommend rushing Weapon Focus/Slashing Grace at level 5 the latest.
Extra Mental Focus wasn't a strong priority with a +Wis race, so I never took it.
Reliquarian was mostly for the saves, but also the versatility of a domain and the Legacy Weapon base focus power.
I don't know that I'm following either of you exactly for Bull Rush, so here's a question: How far can the average Human Bull Rush an opponent while Staggered?
I don't know that I'm following either of you exactly for Bull Rush, so here's a question: How far can the average Human Bull Rush an opponent while Staggered?
30ft. You can take a Standard to Bull Rush an opponent 30ft, provided you have a high enough CMB roll. But then you can't take a Move Action to sheathe/draw a weapon or retrieve a stored item, because you're staggered and you can only perform a Standard or a Move, and you already performed a Standard.
@Wonderstell It's pretty simple. If you're a human with 30ft movement speed, then you have 30ft of available movement in the round. It's not a "separate pool" of available movement, so stop putting words in my mouth.Oh? I read this post and figured you still held your opinion from the previous thread. My mistake if that's not what you've been arguing for, but then I genuinely don't understand how you rationalize your interpretation.
If you're a human with 30ft movement speed, then you have 30ft of available movement in the round.If you choose to spend a move action for movement, yes. It would be more apt to call it potential movement. If you don't spend actions on movement then you have exactly 0ft of available movement, with the exception of the 5-ft step.
That's a pretty well understood rule. If you don't spend actions on movement you don't have any available movement. You start out with 0ft of available movement in the round. Them's the rules.
Tbh, I think you and I agree in a weird way, we're just calling it different things.
I wish that Paizo had included an example where the fighter defeated their CMB by 35 so he could Bull Rush them a total of 40ft, except he would only be able to BR them a total of 30ft because his available movement for that round would be expended.
The problem with your proposed example is that bull rush doesn’t work like that… how far you can bull rush your target and how far you can move with them during a bull rush are not linked… if you roll high enough on your CMB to bull rush someone 40ft but you only have 30ft of movement, you still bullrush them 40ft but you may only move with them for up to 30ft.
Which actually throws a bit of a damper on any bullrush spam builds since there is no way to insure you only bullrush someone 5ft… once you run out of movement to follow with, the tactic falls apart…
I wish that Paizo had included an example where the fighter defeated their CMB by 35 so he could Bull Rush them a total of 40ft, except he would only be able to BR them a total of 30ft because his available movement for that round would be expended.The problem with your proposed example is that bull rush doesn’t work like that… how far you can bull rush your target and how far you can move with them during a bull rush are not linked… if you roll high enough on your CMB to bull rush someone 40ft but you only have 30ft of movement, you still bullrush them 40ft but you may only move with them for up to 30ft.
Which actually throws a bit of a damper on any bullrush spam builds since there is no way to insure you only bullrush someone 5ft… once you run out of movement to follow with, the tactic falls apart…
Yes bull rush does work like that. If you only have 30ft of available movement and you roll to BR an opponent 40ft, you could only move with them 30ft, but you can still shove them up to 40ft because you rolled it. You would basically shove them 30ft and give them a final shove that propels them another 10ft, or not, it's the Bull Rusher's option.
Yes bull rush does work like that. If you only have 30ft of available movement and you roll to BR an opponent 40ft, you could only move with them 30ft, but you can still shove them up to 40ft because you rolled it. You would basically shove them 30ft and give them a final shove that propels them another 10ft, or not, it's the Bull Rusher's option.I wish that Paizo had included an example where the fighter defeated their CMB by 35 so he could Bull Rush them a total of 40ft, except he would only be able to BR them a total of 30ft because his available movement for that round would be expended.The problem with your proposed example is that bull rush doesn’t work like that… how far you can bull rush your target and how far you can move with them during a bull rush are not linked… if you roll high enough on your CMB to bull rush someone 40ft but you only have 30ft of movement, you still bullrush them 40ft but you may only move with them for up to 30ft.
Which actually throws a bit of a damper on any bullrush spam builds since there is no way to insure you only bullrush someone 5ft… once you run out of movement to follow with, the tactic falls apart…
That is exactly what I just said… that however, is NOT what your earlier example that I quoted said… your proposed example said the fighter could only bull rush 30ft even though their check was for 40ft… your example made it out to sound like you were saying the enemy can’t be bull rushed any further than the fighter could move…
Now clearly we both know how it works and that the enemy doesn’t stop moving just because you ran out of movement short of your check result… so I’m just going to chock it up to communication error…
I don't know that I'm following either of you exactly for Bull Rush, so here's a question: How far can the average Human Bull Rush an opponent while Staggered?
How far can the average Human follow an opponent they Bull Rush while staggered?
If they started a partial charge 10ft before their bull rush, then 20ft.
Otherwise, 0ft.
Ok, I see where you're both at.
I agree with Ryze Kuja, sorry Wonderstell.
Any movement made as part of a Bull Rush would be a part of the Standard Action. The easiest way that works is if you allow the aggressor to move up to their speed as part of the Bull Rush. This also makes it consistent with other Combat Maneuvers (eg. Drag).
I do understand why there's some confusion, it could have been a little clearer.
I don't know that I'm following either of you exactly for Bull Rush, so here's a question: How far can the average Human Bull Rush an opponent while Staggered?How far can the average Human follow an opponent they Bull Rush while staggered?
If they started a partial charge 10ft before their bull rush, then 20ft.
Otherwise, 0ft.
No wonder you have a problem with my build. That's not how bull rush works at all.
Any movement made as part of a Bull Rush would be a part of the Standard Action. The easiest way that works is if you allow the aggressor to move up to their speed as part of the Bull Rush. This also makes it consistent with other Combat Maneuvers (eg. Drag).
Genuinely baffled. Where are you reading this?
The rules for Bull Rush are explicit in that you must have movement available to move with your target. Not that you "must be able to move", but that you must have movement available for the task.
"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
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Any movement made as part of a Bull Rush would be a part of the Standard Action. The easiest way that works is if you allow the aggressor to move up to their speed as part of the Bull Rush. This also makes it consistent with other Combat Maneuvers (eg. Drag).Genuinely baffled. Where are you reading this?
The rules for Bull Rush are explicit in that you must have movement available to move with your target. Not that you "must be able to move", but that you must have movement available for the task.
"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
I’m with you, obviously.
You can bullrush people around all that you want, but you can only move with them IF you have avaible movement your self.
Any movement made as part of a Bull Rush would be a part of the Standard Action. The easiest way that works is if you allow the aggressor to move up to their speed as part of the Bull Rush. This also makes it consistent with other Combat Maneuvers (eg. Drag).Genuinely baffled. Where are you reading this?
The rules for Bull Rush are explicit in that you must have movement available to move with your target. Not that you "must be able to move", but that you must have movement available for the task.
"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
When do you make that movement?
During the Bull Rush?
After?
Before?
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Any movement made as part of a Bull Rush would be a part of the Standard Action. The easiest way that works is if you allow the aggressor to move up to their speed as part of the Bull Rush. This also makes it consistent with other Combat Maneuvers (eg. Drag).Genuinely baffled. Where are you reading this?
The rules for Bull Rush are explicit in that you must have movement available to move with your target. Not that you "must be able to move", but that you must have movement available for the task.
"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
When do you make that movement?
During the Bull Rush?
After?
Before?
Here is how I understand the rules.
You move up to your target before the Bull rush, if the target is out of reach.You make your Bull rush and if it succeeds, you push the target back minimum 5 ft. As a part of the Bull rush you can choose to follow your pushed target IF you have movement enough avaible.
The Drag maneuver has a similar phrasing to the Bull Rush maneuver, But the Overrun maneuver is quite different:
“As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.”
You need to move to use this maneuver - you cannot overrun without avaible movement so this phrasing is irrelevant in the text. A 5ft step i simply not enough and you cannot choose not to move.
All this makes me more certain that avaible movement is just that - and not another way to say your base speed.
When do you make that movement?
During the Bull Rush?
After?
Before?
Like, the action or the actual movement? Bull Rush says that you can move with the target so I'd assume everyone has played it that you move in tandem.
But it's not your movement that pushes the target forward (if that was your point). It's the original hit. The proof is that you can bull rush someone 50ft forward and not have to follow them a single square.
Again, baffled. How did the requirement of having movement available lead to your conclusion? It's a hard requirement, a restriction.
It's like if I told you that "you can take the train if you wish but you must have a ticket to do so". That means you need a ticket. Where does the ambiguity come in?
@wonderstell, the issue and confusion here is that you claim that if someone has the ability to bullrush without first moving (such as shield slam) then unless they take a move action to move their “available movement” is 0ft. The rest of us don’t see where you are getting that interpretation from. They way the rest of us understand it is that your available movement is your base speed minus any movement you have already taken in the turn. Of course if you 5ft step before you bullrush then your available movement is at that point 0ft.
In other words, if your base speed is 30 and you haven’t moved yet this round you have an available movement of 30ft. Even if you take a full round action to attack. If you take a 5ft step, then you have an available movement of 0ft. If you charge then you have an available movement of 60ft minus the distance of your charge.
I think we are all in agreement that your available movement has no barring on how far you may move your target with a bullrush, merely how far you may follow them.
I think we are all in agreement that your available movement has no barring on how far you may move your target with a bullrush, merely how far you may follow them.
We are in agreement, indeed.
The rest of us don’t see where you are getting that interpretation from.
That's my exact sentiment. You can't just proclaim that "your available movement is your base speed minus any movement you have already taken in the turn" without quoting something resembling a rule.
If I say "your available movement is three times your base speed" then you can't actually disprove me in any way, because you're not arguing with rules. Your claims are baseless if you keep referencing to a system of your own design. I'm asking you to provide any rule that outlines the different exceptions and interactions that you so confidently bring about.
Do you not see how improbable this is? You are describing a system of "available movement" which isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules, except in a single sentence from which you believe it is implied. It's never stated that "your available movement is equal to your base speed" anywhere, but you treat it as gospel.
the issue and confusion here is that you claim that if someone has the ability to bullrush without first moving (such as shield slam) then unless they take a move action to move their “available movement” is 0ft.
I urge you to read the description of Shield Slam. That's exactly how the feat works.
"You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn."
I think we are all in agreement that your available movement has no barring on how far you may move your target with a bullrush, merely how far you may follow them.
Agreed.
The rest of us don’t see where you are getting that interpretation from.That's my exact sentiment. You can't just proclaim that "your available movement is your base speed minus any movement you have already taken in the turn" without quoting something resembling a rule.
That's not quite what we're proclaiming.
Conversly you can't just proclaim: "If you follow your target 30 feet then you don't get a move action this round" because that's not what it says.
The way you're ruling this would make it the only Standard Action in the game that also uses your Move Action ... and it apparently does so without telling the player that ...
Honestly I CAN see your interpretation, but just like we're assuming some things, so are you. The difference is that our assumptions make this Combat Maneuver work like all others, while yours makes it a unique option that changes the action economy in a way that has no precedent.
And for all Paizo's hand-holding repeating things that don't need to be repeated , they apparently didn't see the need to add in a sentence about how using this Combat Maneuver potentially stops you from taking your move action? Seems unlikely.
The rest of us don’t see where you are getting that interpretation from.That's my exact sentiment. You can't just proclaim that "your available movement is your base speed minus any movement you have already taken in the turn" without quoting something resembling a rule.
If I say "your available movement is three times your base speed" then you can't actually disprove me in any way, because you're not arguing with rules. Your claims are baseless if you keep referencing to a system of your own design. I'm asking you to provide any rule that outlines the different exceptions and interactions that you so confidently bring about.
Do you not see how improbable this is? You are describing a system of "available movement" which isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules, except in a single sentence from which you believe it is implied. It's never stated that "your available movement is equal to your base speed" anywhere, but you treat it as gospel.
the issue and confusion here is that you claim that if someone has the ability to bullrush without first moving (such as shield slam) then unless they take a move action to move their “available movement” is 0ft.I urge you to read the description of Shield Slam. That's exactly how the feat works.
"You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn."
I think we are all in agreement that your available movement has no barring on how far you may move your target with a bullrush, merely how far you may follow them.Agreed.
Except that we are arguing with rules here... you are the one making a baseless claim that is not supported by the rules. When you move, how much available movement do you have? Paizo devs have said multiple times, that they don't write rules in legalease, they write them in plain english. In plain english, available movement is equivalent to how much movement you could take this round. It is not rocket science. The simplest and most probable interpretation is that your available movement is your base land speed. It's no different than reading the rules for Rolling Flurry or Circling Mongoose... where in the rules is "maximum speed" ever defined? It's not, but we all understand this inherently to be your base land speed. Not every term needs to be clearly defined when the intent and meaning is obvious. They could have worded Bull Rush to say "maximum speed" instead of "available movement" but then people would try to make an argument for bull rush allowing them to move up to 30ft for every single bull rush when using Giant First Gauntlets or similar item/ability... or trying to claim that they can 5ft step and then bull rush to move 30ft... but instead the term "available movement" makes it clear that you don't get your full speed in movement with every bull rush, only how much movement you still have left after everything else you have done this round.
You want us to argue our case for where in the rules it says "available movement is base land speed minus any movement already taken"... well how about you argue your case for where in the rule it says "available movement is 0ft unless you take a move action to move." Or better yet, what leaps in logic lead you to that conclusion?
Edit: Shield Slam was a bad example on my part in my earlier post... I was posting from my phone on my break at work... Giant Fist Gauntlets are a far better example for the same scenario...
To sum this discussion up:
Talk to your GM how he//she understands the rules of Bull Rush in advance.
True words
Conversly you can't just proclaim: "If you follow your target 30 feet then you don't get a move action this round" because that's not what it says.
Except that we are arguing with rules here... you are the one making a baseless claim that is not supported by the rules.
You've made the mistake of believing that the burden of proof lies with me. I am defending the status quo: that you can't move without spending actions to move. You are both convinced that Bull Rush is such an action. So I am asking you to prove it.
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You want us to argue our case for where in the rules it says "available movement is base land speed minus any movement already taken"... well how about you argue your case for where in the rule it says "available movement is 0ft unless you take a move action to move." Or better yet, what leaps in logic lead you to that conclusion?
"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
My view:
You can't move without spending actions to move. -> If I want to move with the target then I need to spend actions to move.
The opposite view, apparently:
You can't move without spending actions to move. -> But Bull Rush is such an action. (1) -> Which means this rule must be restricting the amount of movement we have, otherwise there's no reason for it to exist. -> The amount of available movement we have is equal to our base speed and it resets every round. (2) -> Unless we charge in which it is 60 ft. -> And if we move before that, then we lose an equal amount of available movement. -> After that, we still have our move action but can't use it for actual movement if we have no available movement left. (3)
You've cut yourself bloody on Occam's Razor, that's what. I count three leaps of logic right there. Please prove that Bull Rush is such an action, preferably without circular logic.
"If you assume that Bull Rush grants movement then this sentence implies that you get movement, which means that Bull Rush grants movement".
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
That is Bull Rush in it's entirety. Everything there is part of a Standard Action , including the movement.
You've made the mistake of believing that the burden of proof lies with me. I am defending the status quo ...
And you've made the mistake of thinking that argument isn't a steaming pile of poop. You're proposing a position, so the burden of proof is as much on you as us.
You've also made the mistake of thining your argument is the status quo, but as far as I can tell your argument changes more about the game than ours does. So even if "defending the status quo" doesn't need to prove itself , you still have to since your position definitely isn't the status quo.
Ok, so rather than just sarcastically talking down to one another, I thought we might as well ask the brains trust.
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Couple of questions
1 what's the most optimal class for a tank . One that'll be a to do what it's it's meant to do by level 7-9
2 optimal race?
3 optimal feats
hmmm... *smile*
Driver(Rog arch), Road Warrior(LegGm Ftr arch) as they drive tanks tha bestest.For race: probably; Goblins, Hoomans, Aasimars(as they just too good with no -2)... and cold resistance, yeah
For Feats: Technologist feat(park a chainsaw next to you and a grenade launcher out the side window, a driver's license and insurance can be handy as well as knowing how to refuel tha tank), anything making you BabaYaga's friend or schmoozing up to her.