Can you use a higher spell slot for a lower spell, in P2?

[fedana]

ie Memorise a 1st Bless with a 2nd SLot?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Flagged to move to Rules Questions, as this is a Rules Question.

But otherwise, yes, and it counts as a 2nd level spell in this case.

The rules state that for Prepared Spellcasters, they can prepare spells of a lower level heightened to a higher level for the day, but can't prepare lower than the spell's minimum level. For Spontaneous Spellcasters, however, they can only heighten Signature Spells (or other spells that count as Signature Spells, depending on what feats or abilities let you bypass the normal restrictions).

[fedana]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Flagged to move to Rules Questions, as this is a Rules Question.

But otherwise, yes, and it counts as a 2nd level spell in this case.

The rules state that for Prepared Spellcasters, they can prepare spells of a lower level heightened to a higher level for the day, but can't prepare lower than the spell's minimum level. For Spontaneous Spellcasters, however, they can only heighten Signature Spells (or other spells that count as Signature Spells, depending on what feats or abilities let you bypass the normal restrictions).

Opps, sorry about the wrong section..

Do you know which Book and Page it says this in 2E Rules, so I can show my GM

[finalresting]

Page 299 of the core rulebook.

[Lucas Yew]

It's usually no problem for prepared spellcasters. The problem is that it goes murky (or all the way up to ugly, depending onthe amount of your enotional investment with solving this topic) for spontaneous spellcasters.

I wish it was cleared up to be doable in a future CRB errata, as I'm sick of seeing the Final Fantasy III (the real deal, not FF6 renamed haphazardly) MP management grotesqueness again in a tabletop environment...

[Heather F]

Moved to Rules.

[Guntermench]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Flagged to move to Rules Questions, as this is a Rules Question.

But otherwise, yes, and it counts as a 2nd level spell in this case.

The rules state that for Prepared Spellcasters, they can prepare spells of a lower level heightened to a higher level for the day, but can't prepare lower than the spell's minimum level. For Spontaneous Spellcasters, however, they can only heighten Signature Spells (or other spells that count as Signature Spells, depending on what feats or abilities let you bypass the normal restrictions).

Spontaneous casters can also just learn lower level spells at higher levels, either to make a signature spell (which would let them use lower level slots that are still equal or higher than the spell's original level) or to take advantage of a certain level of heightening or just to have but they didn't have room at lower levels.

[The Rot Grub]

fedana wrote:

ie Memorise a 1st Bless with a 2nd SLot?

You would technically be memorizing a 2nd-level version of Bless in that 2nd-level slot. This is important for counteract checks (to dispel that Bless, for example). One may very well want to cast a 5th-level Bless in order to prevent a Level 9 spellcaster from dispelling it.

[Ellias Aubec]

For spontaneous I believe One of the Js mentioned in a reddit post that yes you can use higher slots to cast lower level spells without heightening etc.

[Gortle]

Ellias Aubec wrote:

For spontaneous I believe One of the Js mentioned in a reddit post that yes you can use higher slots to cast lower level spells without heightening etc.

Well that is not in the rules when you read them. The heightening is not optional.

[Ellias Aubec]

I realise that just pointing out the clarification from one of the Paizo people as to their intention.

[Aw3som3-117]

Ellias Aubec wrote:

For spontaneous I believe One of the Js mentioned in a reddit post that yes you can use higher slots to cast lower level spells without heightening etc.

Right, that. That came up in another thread as well, and unless something's changed since then that I'm not aware of (which is certainly possible, but without a link I have going to assume that's not the case) the Dev in question never commented on doing this without heightening. The question was phrased very similarly to this thread, simply asking if you can use higher slots for lower level spells, and the answer was, I kid you not "yes". That's it. And I think this thread makes it pretty clear the answer of "yes" is a perfectly valid one when taking the rules at face value, because of heightening being allowed even if the spell doesn't have a Heightened X or Heightened +X effect.

If my info is outdated and further clarification was given then please let me know (preferably with a link), but until then I'm not trusting I understand the designer intent better from a single word answer to a completely different question than I do from reading and interpreting the rules those same designers wrote in the book that they published.

[Guntermench]

This was the question and response.

[Gortle]

Thats a clear enough statement and a reasonable thing to do. I'm happy to just run with statements from Paizo staff where we have a gap in the rules. Given that we have nothing better.

But this is not a gap in the rules. The rules are not vague or unreasonable. This would be a flat out change.

Everyone even the designers play the game a little differently. Which is OK quite frankly

But we shouldn't be taking on board changes like this as a rules change. It needs to go thought the official errata or FAQ. It just fragments the game unnecessarily.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Gortle wrote:

Thats a clear enough statement and a reasonable thing to do. I'm happy to just run with statements from Paizo staff where we have a gap in the rules. Given that we have nothing better.

But this is not a gap in the rules. The rules are not vague or unreasonable. This would be a flat out change.

Everyone even the designers play the game a little differently. Which is OK quite frankly

But we shouldn't be taking on board changes like this as a rules change. It needs to go thought the official errata or FAQ. It just fragments the game unnecessarily.

Bulmahn only gave a simple answer to a simple question: "Can you Heighten spells without benefit?" "Yes you can." It didn't go into specifics, so specific answers weren't needed to be provided.

Even so, in regards to the two different casting types (prepared versus spontaneous), the rules already give clear guidance as to how it works.

[Guntermench]

Technically the post doesn't mention heightening anywhere. It asks if you can cast a 1st level spell with a 2nd level slot without any benefits.

[Ascalaphus]

Guntermench wrote:

This was the question and response.

Yeah.. he gives a simple answer, so simple, that it doesn't really answer the actual question at hand here.

Because he might just as well have thought the question was something along the lines of "can a wizard prepare True Strike in a second level slot". Which doesn't have a lot of benefits since it doesn't normally run into any counteract effects or other things that care about spell level or heightening. But yeah, that's allowed.

And he didn't answer the question whether this was about using higher level slots without heightening. People asked as a follow-up question; he didn't answer.

So it's really quite inconclusive.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Guntermench wrote:

Technically the post doesn't mention heightening anywhere. It asks if you can cast a 1st level spell with a 2nd level slot without any benefits.

Does it really have to? The rules already explain how this is done, and the ramifications behind it, nor does this technicality even change mine or Bulmahn's effective response, which is that yes, you can cast a first level spell from a second level slot without any benefits.

Just because Jason decided not to waste time as to reference the Core Rulebook page number and the section header doesn't mean he's wrong or changing the rules on folks. It merely means he felt there was no need to explain it further. And he doesn't; the rules already adequately do this for him.