Is there a basis--whether RAW, RAI, or general GM good judgment--to determine the order of operations for Leap-related feats?
To give a specific example of a PC in one of my games, a level 17 swashbuckler whose Speed is 60 when he has panache has the following relevant feats: Quick Jump, Powerful Leap, Cloud Jump, and Flamboyant Athlete.
Quick Jump: Long Jump = 1 action
Powerful Leap: Increase distance by 5 feet
Cloud Jump: Triple the distance, plus if you spend additional actions, your maximum jump distance increases by your Speed to maximum distance
Flamboyant Athlete: DC decreases by 10
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Problem 1: Assuming he spends 3 actions on a Long Jump, his maximum distance is 180 feet.** What is the DC of a 180-foot Long Jump?
It seems to me like there are a couple ways to calculate it.
Method 1: DC starts at 180. Cloud Jump triples our distance so 60. Powerful leap gives us 5 extra feet so 55. Flamboyant Athlete reduces DC by 10 so 45.
Method 2: DC starts at 180. Flamboyant Athlete reduces the DC by 10 so 170. Cloud Jump triples the distance so 57. Powerful leap gives us 5 extra feet, so 52.
Method 3: DC starts at 180. Powerful leap gives us 5 extra feet, so 175. Cloud Jump triples distance so 59. Flamboyant Athlete reduces the DC by 10 so 49.
Method 4: DC starts at 180. Powerful leap gives us 5 extra feet, so 175. Flamboyant Athlete reduces DC by 10 so 165. Cloud Jump triples the distance so 55.
All of those methods assume all three can be combined, but Flamboyant Athlete says that it "doesn't combine with other effects that reduce the DC." None of the other feats say they reduce the DC, but functionally it seems like Powerful Leap reduces the DC by 5 and perhaps also Cloud Jump can be said to reduce the DC by one-third. If Flamboyant Leap can be combined with Cloud Jump but not Powerful Leap, then the possible DCs are 57 and 50, and if Flamboyant Leap cannot be combined with either, the possible DCs are 59 and 55.
So it seems like the DC for a 180-foot jump could be 45, 49, 50, 52, 55, 57, or 59.
**Technically his maximum distance is 240 if he is quickened but even in the best case scenario of calculations the DC would be 65 and even rolling a 20 he cannot hit 55, so there wouldn't be any benefit to spending 4 actions on the Long Jump.
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Problem #2:
Finally, the question can be considered from another direction: what is the least distance he could possibly try to Long Jump with 3 actions without having to make a roll as even a 1 is a success?
His Athletics modifier is currently +29. So, if he rolls a 1, he gets a 30, and it is one degree of success worse than it otherwise would be, so we need the DC to be 20 so that the 1 is converting a critical success into a normal success.
Normally, that would be 20 feet, but...
Method 1: -> 60 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 65 feet (Powerful Leap)
Method 2: -> 60 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 70 feet (Flamboyant Athlete)
Method 3: -> 60 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 70 feet (Flamboyant Athlete), -> 75 feet (Powerful Leap)
Method 4: -> 25 feet (Powerful Leap), -> 75 feet (Cloud Jump)
Method 5: -> 25 feet (Powerful Leap), -> 75 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 85 feet (Powerful Leap)
Method 6: -> 30 feet (Flamboyant Athlete), -> 90 feet (Cloud Jump)
Method 7: -> 30 feet (Flamboyant Athlete), -> 90 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 95 feet (Powerful Leap)
Method 8: -> 25 feet (Powerful Leap) -> 35 feet (Flamboyant Athlete), -> 105 feet (Cloud Jump)
So the possible minimum auto-success distances are 65, 70, 75, 85, 90, 95, or 105
feet
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I'm tempted to go with DC 45 for problem #1 and 105 feet for problem #2, since my general principle is that if there is no good reason to prefer one interpretation over another, I default to the interpretation most favorable to the players. But I'm curious if there's some order of operations principle that would dictate a RAW answer, as well as how people would adjudicate this at their tables.
I don't see a definitive thing like you're asking for, but fwiw my 2c:
It doesn't make sense to apply Flamboyant before Cloud Jump. Cloud Jump helps you decide how far you're jumping in the first place. Since it triples the distance you jump, you're not actually attempting a 180 foot jump, but a 60 foot jump. You make that decision before you ever start worrying about the DC.
I just don't think it makes any sense to try to parse it the other way. Method 2 and 4 don't work.
You still can't Leap farther than your Speed, though, right?
Cloud Jump allows you to increase the maximum possible distance of your leap by your speed with an action, so cloud jumping twice gives him that 180.
You still can't Leap farther than your Speed, though, right?
With a +29, a Speed of 60, and multiplying the distance you can jump, I don't think such a character could ever fail to Leap anywhere within their Speed.
Cloud Jump includes this line: "You can jump a distance greater than your Speed by spending additional actions when you Long Jump or High Jump. For each additional action spent, add your Speed to the limit on how far you can Leap."
Cloud Jump says you would go 60ft on a successful DC 20 check, Flamboyant Athlete would make that a DC 10 check.
So per your example, you could make a DC 50 check to jump 180ft.
Ok so, to be clear, you are saying that Powerful Leap can't combine with Flamboyant Athlete? Because that's the only scenario that leads to a calculation of DC 50.
It doesn't make sense to apply Flamboyant before Cloud Jump. Cloud Jump helps you decide how far you're jumping in the first place. Since it triples the distance you jump, you're not actually attempting a 180 foot jump, but a 60 foot jump. You make that decision before you ever start worrying about the DC.
I just don't think it makes any sense to try to parse it the other way. Method 2 and 4 don't work.
Do you also think then that Methods 6 through 8 don't work on the second problem? I tend to agree with you but I feel like my intuition on the second problem is a little different for some reason.
Ok so, to be clear, you are saying that Powerful Leap can't combine with Flamboyant Athlete? Because that's the only scenario that leads to a calculation of DC 50.Cloud Jump says you would go 60ft on a successful DC 20 check, Flamboyant Athlete would make that a DC 10 check.
So per your example, you could make a DC 50 check to jump 180ft.
They both set your vertical jump to 5ft. They would combine for a horizontal jump if you just did the basic Leap action, but that's not what you're doing.
Powerful Leap extends your Leap by 5ft, great. Long Jump doesn't care. "The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap" means the DC for jumping 180 feet with Cloud Jump is going to remain at 60, since that's how far you're trying to jump. Then it goes down from Flamboyant Athlete reducing the DC, to 50.
But Leap is a subordinate action to Long Jump. So wouldn't things that modify Leap in general modify the Leaps you do with Long Jump, much like things that modify how Strikes work in general (like weapon runes) modify the Strikes you do with, say, Attack of Opportunity?
I think we're having this conversation in two places.
The distance you can Leap doesn't matter when you Long Jump unless you roll a failure, where you Leap normally. A success with a Long Jump sets your maximum Leap distance to the DC set for the jump, which is the distance you are jumping. It doesn't care about how far you can Leap, it overwrites it.
That's fair and makes sense to me. But how is that different from the fact that, say, Power Attack overrides the normal damage your Strikes do, and yet runes that modify the damage of Strikes in general aren't ignored?
(I'm not saying that they aren't different, I just want to understand the reason).
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But Leap is a subordinate action to Long Jump. So wouldn't things that modify Leap in general modify the Leaps you do with Long Jump, much like things that modify how Strikes work in general (like weapon runes) modify the Strikes you do with, say, Attack of Opportunity?Ok so, to be clear, you are saying that Powerful Leap can't combine with Flamboyant Athlete? Because that's the only scenario that leads to a calculation of DC 50.Cloud Jump says you would go 60ft on a successful DC 20 check, Flamboyant Athlete would make that a DC 10 check.
So per your example, you could make a DC 50 check to jump 180ft.
They both set your vertical jump to 5ft. They would combine for a horizontal jump if you just did the basic Leap action, but that's not what you're doing.
Powerful Leap extends your Leap by 5ft, great. Long Jump doesn't care. "The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap" means the DC for jumping 180 feet with Cloud Jump is going to remain at 60, since that's how far you're trying to jump. Then it goes down from Flamboyant Athlete reducing the DC, to 50.
Just wanted to back up this claim by pointing out that in the Long Jump activity the word "Leap" is even capitalized. It's something they notably forget to do a lot when referring to specific terms, but they actually remembered this time, and it makes it pretty clear that when you Long Jump you Leap, not just thematically, but mechanically as well.
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Hello, please review this post. You are still Leaping on a long jump, the action just increases your Leap distance.
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Personally, I like the interpretation in which you set a DC based on an unmodified jump, lower it from Flamboyant Athlete, and then determine the actual distance you're can jump (unclear order of operations from that point). So, DC 30 becomes DC 20, which then is either (30+5)*3 = 105ft or 30*3 + 5 = 95ft.
That being said, I'll be the first to admit that it's ambiguous, and I don't see any clear indication of how these abilities work together. There is also a legitimate claim that powerful leap doesn't apply to leaps done through long-jumps, but I think that's a bit of a stretch both RAW and from what seems to make sense / be the purpose of the feat, especially since the failure condition for long jumps is leaping normally, and that leap would obviously be affected.
Edit: See Cordell Kinter's link. It addresses the section I crossed out.
Guntermench almost convinced me before I was thrown again into a state of uncertainty lol.
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The difference is that Power Attack adds an additional die, instead of setting a maximum.
I mean isn't that what Powerful Leap does too? Not a die, obviously, but "add 2d6" and "add 5" are still both adding things to an otherwise predetermined value.
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I'm hitting an issue at my table with leap feats+ boots of bounding, and lava leap. I had a player insist they could Leap (as a part of lava leap) 60 feet with no check. The player has 45feet of movement (boots, fleet, nimble elf), powerful leap, dancing leaf, and boots of bounding. I told them they couldn't leap more than their movement and allowed them to leap 45 feet with no check to keep things moving, but their entire build is around Lava Leap and I am trying to sort out what it is they can actually do. As far as I can figure out with those feats and the boots, the max leap that can be made with no check is 30 feet.
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I'm hitting an issue at my table with leap feats+ boots of bounding, and lava leap. I had a player insist they could Leap (as a part of lava leap) 60 feet with no check.
Lava Leap specifically changes the Leap action by setting the maximum distance to your land speed. There is no check, as Leap doesn't involve one. Since Lava Leap sets a maximum distance, those other feats and items mentioned can't exceed it. So the character could Lava Leap for 45 feet, like you had ruled.
Lava Leap uses Leap as a Subordinate Action.
This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but it's modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride.
The feats and equipment that modify your land speed would apply, but things that modify your Leap distance would be overridden by the limit set in Lava Leap where it sets the maximum distance to your land speed.
If the character was using Leap directly or using a subordinate action Leap that didn't have additional specifications of its distance or distance calculations, then the other feats may be able to apply.
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Also this is a great example of someone trying to use PF1 mentality in PF2.
Doubling down (or quintupling down in this case with all the feats and equipment) on a particular gimmick in order to do something 'super good' has diminishing returns in PF2.
The character would likely be better optimized and more useful if some of those feats were retrained.
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I'm hitting an issue at my table with leap feats+ boots of bounding, and lava leap. I had a player insist they could Leap (as a part of lava leap) 60 feet with no check.Lava Leap specifically changes the Leap action by setting the maximum distance to your land speed. There is no check, as Leap doesn't involve one. Since Lava Leap sets a maximum distance, those other feats and items mentioned can't exceed it. So the character could Lava Leap for 45 feet, like you had ruled.No, I don't see how it could be 45 feet. I also count only 30 feet at all, as LordPretzels does. Where does even 45 come from (let alone 60)? [Well, the speed is 45, yes. But I don't see how it adds up to it and more]
Ah, yes, I see. "Leap up to your Speed." Yes, then, 45 feet it is. But nothing else matters as everything else gives just 30 at max.
P.S. Well, I don't see any status bonuses, so with Tailwind it would be 55 feet all day and with Fleet step ...75 feet for a minute.
I think the player is calculating it this way, the base leap is being set to 45, as per lava leap. Then all the +leap distance is being stacked on top of the new base of 45. So far, from what everyone has stated here, lava leap changes what applies to leap, removing +horizontal leap distance from the equation and applying only movement speed. I'm fine with the investment into fleet step and tailwind increasing it.
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Juddimal, nothing you said matters. "Leap up to your Speed." That's it. This is a specific new rule for this action. Everything else is a general rule, which gives you only 30 ft. That's all there is. Specific rule trumps general one.
You really should stop searching for exploits in this way.
Is 45 not enough for you? Really? Is 55 or 75 feet with spells not enough? What's even the point?
I think the player is calculating it this way, the base leap is being set to 45, as per lava leap. Then all the +leap distance is being stacked on top of the new base of 45. So far, from what everyone has stated here, lava leap changes what applies to leap, removing +horizontal leap distance from the equation and applying only movement speed. I'm fine with the investment into fleet step and tailwind increasing it.I said it above, it's not a "base". It's new everything, there's nothing else at all. You "Leap up to your Speed", full stop. This is the new rule. If there were something else, it must have been written there. But this game probably never works in this way: when it overrides something completely it doesn't allow anything on top.
"Base" is definitely the wrong phrasing, "Maximum" would be more accurate. Lava Leap sets the Maximum distance traveled with this ability to your movement speed. In this case up to 45, allowing for a lava leap of 0-45 feet horizontal distance traveled.I hope you have a better day then when you posted this response, your tone sucks and is not conducive to discuss rules clarifications. I came here to get clarification on what does or doesn't apply to be sure a player gets the most out of their build within the bounds of the rules, not to be berrated. Go to 4chan or redit to do that.
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My land speed is 45. Lava Leap allows me to leap up to 45 feet. Dancing Leaf adds to that distance because it is a leap.
Elf land speed is 30 feet.
Nimble Elf adds 5 feet to that.Sneak is an activity that lets you Stride up to half your speed. Like the example given in the Subordinate Actions rule.
But you don't get to sneak half your base speed (half of the 30 foot base speed being 15 feet) and then add 5 feet to that because of Nimble Elf since you are using a Stride subordinate action.
You do get to add the 5 feet to your speed and then Sneak half of that total.
The rules for the top level activity take priority. You can use Nimble Elf and Fleet to add to you land speed when calculating how far you can Lava Leap.
But because Lava Leap says that you Leap up to your speed, you are not adding any other feat's distances to it afterward. The top level activity gets to take priority.
That is what the Subordinate Actions rule says where it states: "but it's modified in any ways listed in the larger action".
Even better: Elf with Nimble Elf, Fleet, and Swift Sneak.
Now you can Stride 40 feet, but you can Swift Sneak 50 feet since you can Sneak for your full base speed and then add Nimble Elf and Fleet on top of the subordinate Stride action in Sneak.
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Lava Leap sets the Maximum distance traveled with this ability to your movement speed.Do you believe that High Jump sets the Maximum distance travelled with a success to 5 feet?High Jump
Skill Athletics (Untrained)
You Stride, then attempt a DC 30 Athletics check to jump vertically. If you didn't Stride at least 10 feet, you automatically fail. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.Success: You Leap up to 5 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally.
For the general rule of a high jump i would say yes. Then the specific rule of powerful leap changes it, increasing what distance can be traveled. Then there is also boots of bounding, which only change the vertical distance on a high jump but not the horizontal, making it "up to" 8 feet vertical while 5 feet horizontal is unchanged.
Lava leap seems to change leap to a subordinate action to the ability itself, redefining how the distance is determined. Its like a leap but now its Lava Leap. And Lava Leap follows its own rules setting movement to set its upper limit. Because normally outside the move 15 can leap 10, move 30 can leap 15, and you can't leap further than you speed, movement speed has no affect on upper leap distance. Then long jump uses movement to set the cap on how far can be jumped as long as you succeed at the DC. So far I'm happy with the up to your ground speed and horizontal leap distance modifiers not applying. If something said increase distance traveled with Leap by x amount "including Lava Leap", that's a differnt story.
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My land speed is 45. Lava Leap allows me to leap up to 45 feet. Dancing Leaf adds to that distance because it is a leap.Elf land speed is 30 feet.
Nimble Elf adds 5 feet to that.Sneak is an activity that lets you Stride up to half your speed. Like the example given in the Subordinate Actions rule.
But you don't get to sneak half your base speed (half of the 30 foot base speed being 15 feet) and then add 5 feet to that because of Nimble Elf since you are using a Stride subordinate action.
You do get to add the 5 feet to your speed and then Sneak half of that total.
The rules for the top level activity take priority. You can use Nimble Elf and Fleet to add to you land speed when calculating how far you can Lava Leap.
But because Lava Leap says that you Leap up to your speed, you are not adding any other feat's distances to it afterward. The top level activity gets to take priority.
That is what the Subordinate Actions rule says where it states: "but it's modified in any ways listed in the larger action".
Not a great example tbh, Nimble Elf adds to your speed, which is the thing being modified by Stride, not to mention no one here has tried to argue that you have to disregard Nimble Elf when calculating how far you can sneak.
If there was an ability worded similarly to powerful leap, say "whenever you stride increase the distance by 5 feet" it would be much more ambiguous how it interacts with things that modify strides.
Hence the confusion in this thread.
"The top level activity takes priority" doesn't even really mean anything here, because there are plenty of examples of activities being modified by things. It's actually pretty much the standard way the game works, I can't think of any other scenario where you'd be making this argument. Activities that contain strikes would basically break if you tried to argue strike modifiers couldn't be applied to them, and you're literally allowing the subordinate action to be modified in your own Sneak example.
Not a great example tbh,
Perhaps. But at least it is a concrete example using actual feats that exist.
"The top level activity takes priority" doesn't even really mean anything here, because there are plenty of examples of activities being modified by things. It's actually pretty much the standard way the game works, I can't think of any other scenario where you'd be making this argument. Activities that contain strikes would basically break if you tried to argue strike modifiers couldn't be applied to them,
In general, feats that improve actions can also apply to subordinate actions. For example, the increase in Step distance from Tiger Stance can be used in the Step subordinate action of Light Paws because Light Paws does not give any specifications or modifications to the Step action.
In a theoretical activity that says "Step up to 5 feet", then the distance increase from Tiger Stance would not override that.
If an activity specified making a strike at a particular bonus value, I would not allow the character's feats to override that specified bonus. But that is an even worse example because it is entirely hypothetical. There are no activities that specify the bonus value for the subordinate Strike action. I don't expect that to change any time soon either.
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Again though, we run into the problem of phrasing. Tiger Stance doesn't stack with your suggested activity because both of them reference a fixed value. It doesn't do what the feat here does, so we wouldn't expect it to work similarly anyways.
Powerful Leap is unique/weird here in that it's specifically additive, rather than replacing a value but other than in this thread, additive effects are usually treated as always applying unless specifically called out as not working (like how battle forms put limits on what you can add to the fixed modifiers they give you).
There's also the additional issue that basically every ability that contains Leap uses the same "up to X" language, so it's unclear why it should be meaningfully restrictive only in this specific case.
FWIW I want to agree with you, but so far most of the arguments have been very vibes based or referencing rules concepts that aren't really a thing. So I think it's helpful to try to drill down on the actual mechanics at play here, and when doing that I'm struggling to find a reason that "increase the distance you leap" doesn't apply to an ability that gives you a leap.
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For the general rule of a high jump i would say yes. Then the specific rule of powerful leap changes itI 100% agree with what you are saying, but perhaps not the vocabulary. I don't think we should say that it sets the "Maximum Distance Travelled" if we are then going to allow other things to increase the distance. But we both agree that we have a general rule that sets a value and a specific rule that modifies the value.
An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions—in a different circumstance or with different effects.Lava Leap allows me to use the leap action, changing the distance (from 10 or 15) to my speed. This is exactly like the subordinate action example of Stride. We both agree that this is a subordinate action. This becomes the general rule and sets my leap speed to my land speed.
This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects,I am making a leap, as the subordinate action, and that should follow all of the rules of leap. It is a move action and would provoke attacks of opportunity, would benefit from Guarded Movement, etc.
Because normally outside the move 15 can leap 10, move 30 can leap 15, and you can't leap further than you speedThere is no restriction in the Leap action that defines you can't go farther than your speed. That is, however, mentioned in the success conditions of the Long Jump action that require you to make skill checks.
I still contend that I am making a leap action, as part of the subordinate action rules, and subordinate actions have all of their normal effects. I leap, feats that effect leap are part of it's normal effects. So we have a general rule of move 45 in lava leap and it is modified by the specific rules of +5 when you leap. This follows exactly from your high jump example in the previous post...
there are definitely some decent arguments for your case. I just think the arguments against it are better. I would accept an errata or some sort of official ruling against my position and follow it even though I wouldn't agree with it.