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LordPretzels wrote:
For the general rule of a high jump i would say yes. Then the specific rule of powerful leap changes it

I 100% agree with what you are saying, but perhaps not the vocabulary. I don't think we should say that it sets the "Maximum Distance Travelled" if we are then going to allow other things to increase the distance. But we both agree that we have a general rule that sets a value and a specific rule that modifies the value.

Subordinate Actions wrote:
An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions—in a different circumstance or with different effects.

Lava Leap allows me to use the leap action, changing the distance (from 10 or 15) to my speed. This is exactly like the subordinate action example of Stride. We both agree that this is a subordinate action. This becomes the general rule and sets my leap speed to my land speed.

Subordinate Actions wrote:
This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects,

I am making a leap, as the subordinate action, and that should follow all of the rules of leap. It is a move action and would provoke attacks of opportunity, would benefit from Guarded Movement, etc.

LordPretzels wrote:
Because normally outside the move 15 can leap 10, move 30 can leap 15, and you can't leap further than you speed

There is no restriction in the Leap action that defines you can't go farther than your speed. That is, however, mentioned in the success conditions of the Long Jump action that require you to make skill checks.

I still contend that I am making a leap action, as part of the subordinate action rules, and subordinate actions have all of their normal effects. I leap, feats that effect leap are part of it's normal effects. So we have a general rule of move 45 in lava leap and it is modified by the specific rules of +5 when you leap. This follows exactly from your high jump example in the previous post that specific feats should be able to modify the general rule.

LordPretzels wrote:
If something said increase distance traveled with Leap by x amount "including Lava Leap", that's a differnt story.

It doesn't have to specify because by the subordinate action rules I am taking the leap action and I follow all of the normal rules and effects for leaping.


LordPretzels wrote:
Lava Leap sets the Maximum distance traveled with this ability to your movement speed.
High Jump wrote:

High Jump

Skill Athletics (Untrained)
You Stride, then attempt a DC 30 Athletics check to jump vertically. If you didn't Stride at least 10 feet, you automatically fail. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.

Success: You Leap up to 5 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally.

Do you believe that High Jump sets the Maximum distance travelled with a success to 5 feet?


NorrKnekten wrote:
other similar effects sometimes does not let you push past your speed

I agree. Long Jump specifically calls this out. As you mention, the Jump spell also seems to limit the distance.

NorrKnekten wrote:
Just as Flat checks normally don't benefit from modifiers or bonuses, certain abilities can bypass this

A Flat Check, by definition, specifically states that the value can not be modified. Can you give me an example of an action that bypasses modification?

I don't think this is a 'specific vs general' question; I don't think this is a 'subordinate action' question. I think it is a 'parsing what the developers mean' question. If Lava Leap said "leap 45 feet", then I hope that everyone would agree that you could add +5 feet to that distance with a feat. So what does the phrase "up to 45 feet" mean? Based on my previous post, paizo seems to use "up to" to mean a range and not a limit.


I am the LavaLeap player in question.

Lava Leap wrote:
Leap up to your Speed.
Dancing Leaf wrote:
When you Leap or succeed at a High Jump or Long Jump, increase the distance you jump by 5 feet.

My land speed is 45. Lava Leap allows me to leap up to 45 feet. Dancing Leaf adds to that distance because it is a leap.

I read "up to" as meaning any distance between 0 and my speed. I do not read "up to" as "set the distance as a 'hard limit' and nothing else may modify it." My counter to that interpretation is that other rules use the phrase "up to".

Dancing Leaf wrote:
When you ... succeed at a High Jump..., increase the distance you jump by 5 feet.
High Jump wrote:
Success: You Leap up to 5 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally.

High Jump uses "up to" on all of it's phrasing and you are specifically told to add a distance in the feat, so "up to" can't mean a limit.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

That is a good catch that I had not seen. The wording in the Escape Artist skill is in conflict with the wording in the Entangle spell.

Making an Escape Artist check to escape from rope bindings, manacles, or other restraints (except a grappler) requires 1 minute of work. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a full-round action.


If you entangle someone using Fury's Snare, how long (what action type) does it take for them to escape?

Fury's Snare: The target can break free of the whip by making a DC 10 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check (add the enhancement bonus of the whip to these DCs), or by using a full-round action to disentangle himself.

Obviously, they can escape without a check as a full-round action. Reading the Escape Artist skill, the other circumstances that create the entangled condition seem to take a full-round action. I can't find a reference for what action type an ability check should take.

The closest thing that I can find where it is specified are the rules for a net.
Net: An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action).

But it seems strange to offer three ways to escape all being full-round actions (and one does not involve a check).


Cheapy wrote:

Scenario 1: Two AoOs. Each ranged attack provokes. The act of making a full attack in and of itself does not provoke. The constituent parts of the full attack do.

Scenario 2: Yes, each attack is an attack. You can protect against each one.

I completely agree with you. Specifically, Table 8-2 of the Core Rulebook shows that a Full Attack does not provoke, so I believe that you would need to look at each component of the Full Attack to determine if there are AoO.

However, the people that I play with (and plenty of people online during my searches), do not play this way. Because of the way the movement is called out in the Combat Reflexes section, they have ruled that a single action cannot generate more than one AoO.

Combat Reflexes: This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a -given opportunity-

So the question really becomes does "opportunity" = "action"?


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Combat Reflexes: This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a -given opportunity-

How many opportunities are generated by a full attack?

Scenerio 1:
A 6th level fighter making a full attack action with a bow against an opponent with combat reflexes who is 5 ft away. +6/+1

A full attack is a single action, so should generate 1 AoO?
You are shooting two arrows, so should generate 2 AoO?

Scenerio 2:
The real question that came up during the game was with the Bodyguard feat.

Bodyguard: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to...

A 6th level fighter making a full attack action with a sword against your ally. +6/+1. You have bodyguard and combat reflexes. Is each swing an "is attacked"?

A full attack is a single action and only gives you one opportunity, so should allow you to protect once?
Each attack is a separate opportunity and you can defend against both?

Thanks,
-Judd