Leap feat interactions


Rules Discussion


Is there a basis--whether RAW, RAI, or general GM good judgment--to determine the order of operations for Leap-related feats?

To give a specific example of a PC in one of my games, a level 17 swashbuckler whose Speed is 60 when he has panache has the following relevant feats: Quick Jump, Powerful Leap, Cloud Jump, and Flamboyant Athlete.

Quick Jump: Long Jump = 1 action

Powerful Leap: Increase distance by 5 feet

Cloud Jump: Triple the distance, plus if you spend additional actions, your maximum jump distance increases by your Speed to maximum distance

Flamboyant Athlete: DC decreases by 10

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Problem 1: Assuming he spends 3 actions on a Long Jump, his maximum distance is 180 feet.** What is the DC of a 180-foot Long Jump?

It seems to me like there are a couple ways to calculate it.

Method 1: DC starts at 180. Cloud Jump triples our distance so 60. Powerful leap gives us 5 extra feet so 55. Flamboyant Athlete reduces DC by 10 so 45.

Method 2: DC starts at 180. Flamboyant Athlete reduces the DC by 10 so 170. Cloud Jump triples the distance so 57. Powerful leap gives us 5 extra feet, so 52.

Method 3: DC starts at 180. Powerful leap gives us 5 extra feet, so 175. Cloud Jump triples distance so 59. Flamboyant Athlete reduces the DC by 10 so 49.

Method 4: DC starts at 180. Powerful leap gives us 5 extra feet, so 175. Flamboyant Athlete reduces DC by 10 so 165. Cloud Jump triples the distance so 55.

All of those methods assume all three can be combined, but Flamboyant Athlete says that it "doesn't combine with other effects that reduce the DC." None of the other feats say they reduce the DC, but functionally it seems like Powerful Leap reduces the DC by 5 and perhaps also Cloud Jump can be said to reduce the DC by one-third. If Flamboyant Leap can be combined with Cloud Jump but not Powerful Leap, then the possible DCs are 57 and 50, and if Flamboyant Leap cannot be combined with either, the possible DCs are 59 and 55.

So it seems like the DC for a 180-foot jump could be 45, 49, 50, 52, 55, 57, or 59.

**Technically his maximum distance is 240 if he is quickened but even in the best case scenario of calculations the DC would be 65 and even rolling a 20 he cannot hit 55, so there wouldn't be any benefit to spending 4 actions on the Long Jump.
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Problem #2:

Finally, the question can be considered from another direction: what is the least distance he could possibly try to Long Jump with 3 actions without having to make a roll as even a 1 is a success?

His Athletics modifier is currently +29. So, if he rolls a 1, he gets a 30, and it is one degree of success worse than it otherwise would be, so we need the DC to be 20 so that the 1 is converting a critical success into a normal success.

Normally, that would be 20 feet, but...

Method 1: -> 60 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 65 feet (Powerful Leap)

Method 2: -> 60 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 70 feet (Flamboyant Athlete)

Method 3: -> 60 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 70 feet (Flamboyant Athlete), -> 75 feet (Powerful Leap)

Method 4: -> 25 feet (Powerful Leap), -> 75 feet (Cloud Jump)

Method 5: -> 25 feet (Powerful Leap), -> 75 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 85 feet (Powerful Leap)

Method 6: -> 30 feet (Flamboyant Athlete), -> 90 feet (Cloud Jump)

Method 7: -> 30 feet (Flamboyant Athlete), -> 90 feet (Cloud Jump), -> 95 feet (Powerful Leap)

Method 8: -> 25 feet (Powerful Leap) -> 35 feet (Flamboyant Athlete), -> 105 feet (Cloud Jump)

So the possible minimum auto-success distances are 65, 70, 75, 85, 90, 95, or 105
feet

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I'm tempted to go with DC 45 for problem #1 and 105 feet for problem #2, since my general principle is that if there is no good reason to prefer one interpretation over another, I default to the interpretation most favorable to the players. But I'm curious if there's some order of operations principle that would dictate a RAW answer, as well as how people would adjudicate this at their tables.

Sczarni

You still can't Leap farther than your Speed, though, right?

With a +29, a Speed of 60, and multiplying the distance you can jump, I don't think such a character could ever fail to Leap anywhere within their Speed.


Cloud Jump says you would go 60ft on a successful DC 20 check, Flamboyant Athlete would make that a DC 10 check.

So per your example, you could make a DC 50 check to jump 180ft.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don't see a definitive thing like you're asking for, but fwiw my 2c:

It doesn't make sense to apply Flamboyant before Cloud Jump. Cloud Jump helps you decide how far you're jumping in the first place. Since it triples the distance you jump, you're not actually attempting a 180 foot jump, but a 60 foot jump. You make that decision before you ever start worrying about the DC.

I just don't think it makes any sense to try to parse it the other way. Method 2 and 4 don't work.

Nefreet wrote:
You still can't Leap farther than your Speed, though, right?

Cloud Jump allows you to increase the maximum possible distance of your leap by your speed with an action, so cloud jumping twice gives him that 180.


Nefreet wrote:

You still can't Leap farther than your Speed, though, right?

With a +29, a Speed of 60, and multiplying the distance you can jump, I don't think such a character could ever fail to Leap anywhere within their Speed.

Cloud Jump includes this line: "You can jump a distance greater than your Speed by spending additional actions when you Long Jump or High Jump. For each additional action spent, add your Speed to the limit on how far you can Leap."


Guntermench wrote:

Cloud Jump says you would go 60ft on a successful DC 20 check, Flamboyant Athlete would make that a DC 10 check.

So per your example, you could make a DC 50 check to jump 180ft.

Ok so, to be clear, you are saying that Powerful Leap can't combine with Flamboyant Athlete? Because that's the only scenario that leads to a calculation of DC 50.


Squiggit wrote:

It doesn't make sense to apply Flamboyant before Cloud Jump. Cloud Jump helps you decide how far you're jumping in the first place. Since it triples the distance you jump, you're not actually attempting a 180 foot jump, but a 60 foot jump. You make that decision before you ever start worrying about the DC.

I just don't think it makes any sense to try to parse it the other way. Method 2 and 4 don't work.

Do you also think then that Methods 6 through 8 don't work on the second problem? I tend to agree with you but I feel like my intuition on the second problem is a little different for some reason.


Unbinder of Fetters wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

Cloud Jump says you would go 60ft on a successful DC 20 check, Flamboyant Athlete would make that a DC 10 check.

So per your example, you could make a DC 50 check to jump 180ft.

Ok so, to be clear, you are saying that Powerful Leap can't combine with Flamboyant Athlete? Because that's the only scenario that leads to a calculation of DC 50.

They both set your vertical jump to 5ft. They would combine for a horizontal jump if you just did the basic Leap action, but that's not what you're doing.

Powerful Leap extends your Leap by 5ft, great. Long Jump doesn't care. "The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap" means the DC for jumping 180 feet with Cloud Jump is going to remain at 60, since that's how far you're trying to jump. Then it goes down from Flamboyant Athlete reducing the DC, to 50.

The main use of Powerful Leap is to increase the vertical jump and increase the Leap distance for people that don't have Quick Jump. Or preferably the Quick Jump + Flamboyant/Raging Athlete + Assurance: Athletics combo, jump 117ft every time with Cloud Jump in your example.


Guntermench wrote:
Unbinder of Fetters wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

Cloud Jump says you would go 60ft on a successful DC 20 check, Flamboyant Athlete would make that a DC 10 check.

So per your example, you could make a DC 50 check to jump 180ft.

Ok so, to be clear, you are saying that Powerful Leap can't combine with Flamboyant Athlete? Because that's the only scenario that leads to a calculation of DC 50.

They both set your vertical jump to 5ft. They would combine for a horizontal jump if you just did the basic Leap action, but that's not what you're doing.

Powerful Leap extends your Leap by 5ft, great. Long Jump doesn't care. "The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap" means the DC for jumping 180 feet with Cloud Jump is going to remain at 60, since that's how far you're trying to jump. Then it goes down from Flamboyant Athlete reducing the DC, to 50.

But Leap is a subordinate action to Long Jump. So wouldn't things that modify Leap in general modify the Leaps you do with Long Jump, much like things that modify how Strikes work in general (like weapon runes) modify the Strikes you do with, say, Attack of Opportunity?


I think we're having this conversation in two places.

The distance you can Leap doesn't matter when you Long Jump unless you roll a failure, where you Leap normally. A success with a Long Jump sets your maximum Leap distance to the DC set for the jump, which is the distance you are jumping. It doesn't care about how far you can Leap, it overwrites it.

You want to go X distance, therefore the DC is X. The only things that can change this are Cloud Jump, which specifically gives an example, and Flamboyant/Raging Athlete, which affect the DC of the jump, and Dancing Leaf which specifies that it increases the distance of High Jump and Long Jump by 5 feet.


Guntermench wrote:

I think we're having this conversation in two places.

The distance you can Leap doesn't matter when you Long Jump unless you roll a failure, where you Leap normally. A success with a Long Jump sets your maximum Leap distance to the DC set for the jump, which is the distance you are jumping. It doesn't care about how far you can Leap, it overwrites it.

That's fair and makes sense to me. But how is that different from the fact that, say, Power Attack overrides the normal damage your Strikes do, and yet runes that modify the damage of Strikes in general aren't ignored?

(I'm not saying that they aren't different, I just want to understand the reason).


This very specifically states what the DC is.

Quote:
The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap

This very specifically states what the Success is.

Quote:
Success Increase the maximum horizontal distance you Leap to the desired distance.

The difference is that Power Attack adds an additional die, instead of setting a maximum. A better comparison is Weapon Surge, which acts like Power Attack but has a maximum number of weapon dice before it's irrelevant.


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Unbinder of Fetters wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Unbinder of Fetters wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

Cloud Jump says you would go 60ft on a successful DC 20 check, Flamboyant Athlete would make that a DC 10 check.

So per your example, you could make a DC 50 check to jump 180ft.

Ok so, to be clear, you are saying that Powerful Leap can't combine with Flamboyant Athlete? Because that's the only scenario that leads to a calculation of DC 50.

They both set your vertical jump to 5ft. They would combine for a horizontal jump if you just did the basic Leap action, but that's not what you're doing.

Powerful Leap extends your Leap by 5ft, great. Long Jump doesn't care. "The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap" means the DC for jumping 180 feet with Cloud Jump is going to remain at 60, since that's how far you're trying to jump. Then it goes down from Flamboyant Athlete reducing the DC, to 50.

But Leap is a subordinate action to Long Jump. So wouldn't things that modify Leap in general modify the Leaps you do with Long Jump, much like things that modify how Strikes work in general (like weapon runes) modify the Strikes you do with, say, Attack of Opportunity?

Just wanted to back up this claim by pointing out that in the Long Jump activity the word "Leap" is even capitalized. It's something they notably forget to do a lot when referring to specific terms, but they actually remembered this time, and it makes it pretty clear that when you Long Jump you Leap, not just thematically, but mechanically as well.

Horizon Hunters

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Hello, please review this post. You are still Leaping on a long jump, the action just increases your Leap distance.


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Personally, I like the interpretation in which you set a DC based on an unmodified jump, lower it from Flamboyant Athlete, and then determine the actual distance you're can jump (unclear order of operations from that point). So, DC 30 becomes DC 20, which then is either (30+5)*3 = 105ft or 30*3 + 5 = 95ft.

That being said, I'll be the first to admit that it's ambiguous, and I don't see any clear indication of how these abilities work together. There is also a legitimate claim that powerful leap doesn't apply to leaps done through long-jumps, but I think that's a bit of a stretch both RAW and from what seems to make sense / be the purpose of the feat, especially since the failure condition for long jumps is leaping normally, and that leap would obviously be affected.

Edit: See Cordell Kinter's link. It addresses the section I crossed out.


Guntermench almost convinced me before I was thrown again into a state of uncertainty lol.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Guntermench wrote:


The difference is that Power Attack adds an additional die, instead of setting a maximum.

I mean isn't that what Powerful Leap does too? Not a die, obviously, but "add 2d6" and "add 5" are still both adding things to an otherwise predetermined value.


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Cordell Kintner wrote:
Hello, please review this post. You are still Leaping on a long jump, the action just increases your Leap distance.

Interesting.

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