I have a Flurry Ranger dual-wielding Kukris at my table and her preferred tactic against her Hunted Prey is:
- Trip
- Twin Takedown
- Twin Parry
- Then Disrupt Prey (if/when her prey tries to Stand.)
In our last session she tried to trip a Basilisk (described as an "eight-legged reptile") and, later, a Gibbering Mouther (amorphous blob). It seems like neither should be trip-able, but nothing indicates that they are immune to Trip. Ultimately, I compromised and allowed her successful trip action to make the creatures Flat-footed but not Prone.
Is there a General Rule that I'm missing somewhere regarding the limitations of Trip with certain creatures or creature physiology?
As a follow-up, what is the order of operations when her Prone target uses the Stand Action and she reacts with Disrupt Prey? Is the target still considered Prone, and thus still Flat-footed, when she makes her Strike?
(Quote]Is there a General Rule that I'm missing somewhere regarding the limitations of Trip with certain creatures or creature physiology?
Nope!
As a follow-up, what is the order of operations when her Prone target uses the Stand Action and she reacts with Disrupt Prey? Is the target still considered Prone, and thus still Flat-footed, when she makes her Strike?
They stand first, per the page 474 section on move actions that trigger reactions.
Move Actions That Trigger Reactions
Some reactions and free actions are triggered by a creature using an action with the move trait. The most notable example is Attack of Opportunity. Actions with the move trait can trigger reactions or free actions throughout the course of the distance traveled. Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature). If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability.
Some actions, such as Step, specifically state they don’t trigger reactions or free actions based on movement.
Eh, it seems a little less cut and dry when you factor in the critical hit effect:
If the attack is a critical hit, you disrupt the triggering action.
So yes, they're no longer prone when the Disrupt Prey reaction fires. However, if they move to stand, a critical hit says it keeps them knocked down. I think the timing is intended to be less about when it occurs in this case and whether or not it's a critical. If they're leaving their square, then they definitely get to do that 5' move before your reaction fires at which point a critical hit wastes any further movement they intended with that action.
In our last session she tried to trip a Basilisk (described as an "eight-legged reptile") and, later, a Gibbering Mouther (amorphous blob). It seems like neither should be trip-able, but nothing indicates that they are immune to Trip. Ultimately, I compromised and allowed her successful trip action to make the creatures Flat-footed but not Prone.
Yep which is the right approach have a go at it and move on.
I'd like to see a few guidelines like this in the game to help GMs.
For me I'd like to distinguish between these creatures a bit more. This would be what I would do:
A highly legged creature (more than 4) such as ant, basilisk, spider can still be tripped. They have a back and can definitely be flipped over. To my mind that should just be a penalty to the trip roll, as what the attacker has to do is flip the whole body of the animal rather than take out a leg.
Maybe a -2 circumstance penalty to the roll.
Something like a snake still has a back, maybe you could treat that the same. Or maybe you could just allow it to recover from being tripped as a free action.
But a worm, an ooze or an amorphous creature, just don't have an underside or a normal orientation. They should be immune to being tripped.
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But a worm, an ooze or an amorphous creature, just don't have an underside or a normal orientation. They should be immune to being tripped.
Well, if you do an image search of oozes, they are usually fairly erect, with appendage like pseudopods and the like. So I think a "prone" ooze would be a bit splatted on the floor. To get back into the fight, it would need to puff itself back up, or "stand." So that all feels okay to me. (That said, I'm not sure why, say, the weapons with the trip trait would be especially better at splatting an ooze.)
It *does* seem to me like tripping a basilisk should be more difficult. Maybe targeting its fortitude dc instead of reflex might make more sense.
I run two games, and if I made any sort of ruling like that in one, my players would coup (or at least whine about it in their group chat passive aggressively). In my other, the group would expect me to think about something like that and render a judgment and might get irritated and eye-rolly if I handwaved and said "well, RAW, it isn't immune to the prone condition..." They would at least expect me to give an explanation/description of how the snake or ooze or whatever could be prone. The first group, on the other hand, would be irritated that I even felt the need to give such an explanation.
And there are a couple players that play in both groups -- fascinating to observe the effects of groupthink / distinctive group culture that emerges in very long term gaming groups. In any event, my GM philosophy is largely just to give the players the kind of refereeing that they want.
Thanks for the amazing feedback!!
It's been like 12 years since I read the PF2 CRB, but I remember a line either in there or in player rationalization that tripping can simply be taken as a mechanical expression of flat-footed+ for creatures with no legs or lots, and I find this agreeable enough. Frankly, I wish they'd done something similar with precision damage, since it currently exists as a mechanical element mostly just to mess up Rogues, Swashbucklers and Investigators sometimes.
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It's been like 12 years since I read the PF2 CRB
Did you do it through some kind of omen ritual, or do you just have a seriously good inside track to prepublications? :)