Okay, so I have never seen a PF2 party without access to the Medicine skill.
Sure you've got healing clerics and elixirs of life and lay on hands and whatnot, but out of combat, Medicine reigns supreme.
It's actually hilarious to hear people claiming PF2 avoided must-haves with a straight face. Adding proficiency in Medicine is such a small investment with such a huge impact it's not even funny to suggest its "optional" and not a skill tax.
I think this is a bit of hyperbole. Yes, medicine skill healing is the best out of combat healing available. However, that is only when built with more than just trained proficiency in medicine. Focus point healing spells come a close second for out of combat healing.
That aside...
It makes perfect sense that intelligent creatures, even monsterous ones, generally have some level of medicine skill based healing. It wouldn't be listed on their stat block because it isn't relevant to the actual combat most of the time. If they do have battle medicine, then it should be listed.
So yeah, if the player party has to retreat and regroup for an hour or two, I don't see any reason why the enemy group that they were fighting against couldn't also heal up a bit and prepare for round two.
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I can't really wrap my head around the fact that the heroes could simply whale on a monster and then withdraw. They heal back up, the monster does not. Rinse and repeat and the encounter can only end one way.
I had this happen in Trail of the Hunted in my PF2 coversion of Ironfang Invasion. At 4th level the PCs decided to check out one of the roadblocks set up by the Ironfang Legion. The module did not describe the roadblocks themselves, so I hastily set up a garrison in a hamlet by throwing together 1st-level Hobgoblin Soldiers, 2nd-level Ironfang Heavy Troopers (a creature from the module, a hobgoblin soldier in heavy armor), and 4th-level Hobgoblin Archers. When the players decided to battle the garrison and the battle went into a second game session, I had time to create a 5th-level spriggan lieutenant as the commander.
Three quarters of the way through defeating a garrison that on paper was a 300-xp encounter, one of the party members finally dropped unconscious. Most other party members had half hit points remaining. The party defeated the last of the archers, retreated stealthily to the forest, and spent an hour healing while hiding.
As for the dozen remaining hobgoblin soldiers and heavy troopers, half were wounded. And they had no way to heal up. I decided that they would retreat to the local Ironfang Legion base 20 miles away, the wounded riding on carts pulled by the healthy. The party caught up to them 5 miles out and killed them.
Thus, when I adapted more hobgoblins in the next module, Fangs of War, I gave some of them Medicine training and healer's tools to make sure that the enemy could heal up, too. The party has not had to retreat from combat again, so my only test of enemy medicine was the hobgoblins stabilizing a downed commander and trying to evacuate him from the battlefield for Treat Wounds. They died in the process.
Paizo creative director James Jacobs had talked about how a setting in a module is a snapshot of one moment in time and will change if the party remains there for a long time or enters at an unexpected time of day. I think what we have to consider creatures from the bestiaries that way, too. We see a snapshot of the abilities that they will use in combat, but for brevity the stat block leaves off their downtime abilities. The hobgoblin soldier spends more time digging latrines and peeling potatoes than fighting, but the GM and players don't get to see that.
A hobgoblin garrison ought to have a few specialists, such as a hobgoblin cook and a hobgoblin medic and a hobgoblin scribe. Yet if we expect the party to fight the garrison non-stop, then the cook might as well have the same stats as a soldier, but the GM can claim that he is wearing an apron over his armor and wielding a cleaver that deals the same damage as a longsword. And the medic won't reveal his Medicine skill until he pulls healer's tools out of a chest and starts bandaging up soldiers during downtime. Just remember to list healer's tools among the treasure from looting the barracks.
On the other hand, a dire wolf, creature 3, that escaped with injuries would just hide in its den and heal up gradually over many days. It would avoid the party if at all possible, so as far as the party is concerned, it disappeared forever.
Okay, so I have never seen a PF2 party without access to the Medicine skill.
Sure you've got healing clerics and elixirs of life and lay on hands and whatnot, but out of combat, Medicine reigns supreme.
It's actually hilarious to hear people claiming PF2 avoided must-haves with a straight face. Adding proficiency in Medicine is such a small investment with such a huge impact it's not even funny to suggest its "optional" and not a skill tax.
I don't really see the problem with a skill that you want one or two in a party. You could say the same about half the skills in the game.
It's not forced on any character. It's just that at least one person in the party/squad/village should have it. Maybe there is some value in a second. But there is much less value with a third.
Out of combat. The ten minute refocus healing is supreme. Medicine requires the continual recovery skill feat. If anything is that skill feat which is very strong.
Yes NPCs should heal between combats. It just makes sense when the assumption in most modules is that the party is fully healed between combats.
Perhaps medicine should be an uncommon skill to stop ît dominating magic healing. But that's really a GM world building choice.
Out of combat. The ten minute refocus healing is supreme. Medicine requires the continual recovery skill feat. If anything is that skill feat which is very strong.
Yep, having refocus healing or continual recovery the party is 6 times faster at healing vs any enemies that do not have them. This means that most times the party can heal to full while the monsters can only get a single medicine check per trained user. You add Ward Medic and it just gets faster.
As to required, yeah it's not really for everyone. You get someone with the blessed one archetype and a bard with the hymn of healing and the skill isn't needed so much. That and some characters are just so much better at it than others: an investigator or rogue have the spare skill feats to max out the skill feats needed to get the most out of it. A Forensic Medicine investigator only needs a few levels to get all the needed medicine feats and medic ones to really kick some butt in medicine.
With a simple skill investment in medicine you'll heal 2d8 or 4d8 per hour per character. It's going to be inadequate quite quickly.
Also in my experience people don't invest too much into skills to actually find monster of which a lot of animals at least have high survival modifiers to cover their tracks.
That's their way of gaining time to heal back up imo in lore.
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Paizo created Medicine and then gave it only* to heroes. It's their problem to fix.
It's only a problem if you think it's a problem: I don't think most people do. The idea is that players are expected to start their encounters at at full hp, not monsters. If a DM wishes to give some monsters Medicine, that up to them to change but it's not so much a fix as a personal change to an encounter. You also have to remember that monsters/NPC's are often built to only see a single combat and as such would only be given combat healing. [you don't give medicine to someone you expect to be dead right away]. IMO, this is a feature not a bug.
it is not unrealistic to assume a Tyrannosaurus Rex would heal back up if you just leave it alone for an hour.
LOL I read this and thought of a t-rex trying to use a healer's kit with it's tiny arms. ;)
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Please understand this is a game first and not an accurate simulation of reality. To elaborate on Mathmuse's post, there's no need to give the latrine diggers Digging Lore. Things can exist without literally being written in to the game, it's not going to ruin your life.
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I word-searched Pathfinder 2nd Edition Bestiary 1, which has 413 creature entries, for creatures with Medicine skill or healing abilities. I found 19 trained in Medicine and 61 with other healing abilities. That is 19% of the creatures.
None of the creatures with Medicine skill carried healer's tools, so by the rules they cannot Treat Wounds. I presume that is a careless oversight in their inventory and they really do carry healer's tools. Unless we want to believe that they learned Medicine for no reason or can Treat Wounds without healer's tools.
1. Boggard Swampseer, Creature 3, Medicine +9, Items staff
2. Changeling Exile, Creature 3, Medicine +9, Items leather armor, staff
3. Leukodaemon, Creature 9, Medicine +20, Items +1 striking composite longbow (50 arrows)
4. Shemhazian, Creature 16, Medicine +28, no items
5. Dero Stalker, Creature 2, Medicine +3, Items aklys, giant centipede venom (4 doses), hand crossbow (20 bolts)
6. Dero Strangler, Creature 3, Medicine +4, Items aklys, hand crossbow (10 bolts), lethargy poison (5 doses), rope (50 feet)
7. Dero Magister, Creature 5, Medicine +8, Items aklys, also spells vampiric touch and soothe.
8. Young Gold Dragon, Creature 11, Medicine +21, no items
9. Adult Gold Dragon, Creature 15, Medicine +27, no items
10. Ancient Gold Dragon, Creature 20, Medicine +36, no items
11. Young Silver Dragon, Creature 10, Medicine +20, no items
12. Adult Silver Dragon, Creature 14, Medicine +24, no items
13. Ancient Silver Dragon, Creature 19, Medicine +33, no items
14. Gnoll Cultist, Creature 3, Medicine +7, Items falchion, hide armor, wooden religious symbol
15. Merfolk Warrior, Creature 1, Medicine +4, Items trident (2)
16. Naiad Queen, Creature 7, Medicine +15, no items, also spell heal and water healing
17. Assimer Redeemer, Creature 5, Medicine +9, Items crossbow (10 bolts), half plate, steel shield (Hardness 5, 20 HP, BT 10), longsword, also lay on hands
18. Simurgh, Creature 18, Medicine +35, no items, also spell heal
19. Werebear, Creature 4, Medicine +9, Items chain shirt, greataxe, hatchet (8)
20. Cassian, Creature 1, spell heal
21. Choral, Creature 6, spell heal
22. Balisse, Creature 8, spell heal
23. Astral Deva, Creature 14, spell heal
24. Lantern Archon, Creature 1, spell heal
25. Horned Archon, Creature 4, Touch of Charity absorbs others' damage
26. Lyrakien, Creature 1, spell heal
27. Gancanagh, Creature 4, spell heal
28. Lilend, Creature 7, spell heal
29. Ghaele, Creature 13, spell heal
30. Crimson Worm, Creature 18, fast healing 20 while in fire
31. Cacodaemon, Creature 1, fast healing 5 if consumed a soul gem.
32. Quasit, Creature 1, Abyssal Healing [one-action] ... The quasit restores 1d6 HP to itself.
33. Balor, Creature 20, Lifedrinker [free-action] ... The balor drinks the triggering creature’s life force and regains 10d8+80 Hit Points.
34. Imp, Creature 1, Diabolic Healing [one-action] ... The imp regains 1d6 Hit Points.
35. Dullahan, Creature 7, fast healing 5
36. Air Mephit, Creature 1, fast healing 2 in open air
37. Earth Mephit, Creature 1, fast healing 2 while underground
38. Fire Mephit, Creature 1, fast healing 2 while touching fire
39. Water Mephit, Creature 1, fast healing 2 while underwater
40. Ghost, template, Rejuvenation ... When a ghost is destroyed, it re-forms after 2d4 days within the location it’s bound to, fully healed.
41. Golem, template, healed by specific damage type of magic
42. Lich, template, Lich Phylactery ... the lich manifests next to the phylactery, fully healed and in a new body.
43. Lizardfolk Stargazer, Creature 2, spell heal
44. Merfolk Wavecaller, Creature 2, spell heal
45. Guardian Nage, Creature 10, spell heal
46. Naiad, Creature 1, Water Healing [two-actions] .. While within her bonded body of water (see water dependent above), the naiad heals 1 Hit Point every 10 minutes.
47. Dryad Queen, Creature 13, spell heal
48. Ofalth, Creature 10, Filth Wallow ... fast healing 2 while in filth
49. Phoenix, Creature 15, spell heal and self-resurrection and regeneration 20 (deactivated by cold or evil)
50. Poltergeist, Creature 5, rejuvenation like a ghost
51. Voidworm, Creature 1, fast healing 1
52. Naunet, Creature 7, fast healing 2
53. Keketar, Creature 17, fast healing 10
54. Morrigna, Creature 15, spell heal and regeneration 20 (deactivated by acid or fire)
55. Redcap, Creature 5, fast healing 10 while wearing its cap
56. Shoggoth, Creature 18, fast healing 20
57. Bloody Skeleton, template, The skeleton is covered in dripping blood and gains fast healing equal to its level.
58. Soulbound Doll, Creature 2, chaotic good dolls have spell heal.
59. Terotricus, Creature 19, regeneration 25 (deactivated by cold) and Infest Environs [two-actions] ... The terotricus is healed 200 Hit Points.
60. Treerazer, Creature 25, regeneration 50 (deactivated by good) and Blackaxe ... Make a Strike against a living tree with Blackaxe. If it hits, the tree withers to ash and you heal 250 Hit Points
61. Unicorn, Creature 3, spell heal
62. Vampire, template, fast healing and coffin restoration. Vampire Rogue Spawn hs fast healing 5, Vampire Count has fast healing 7, Vampire Mastermind has fast healing 10.
63. Warsworn, Creature 16, Absorb [free-action] ... killing the creature and healing the warsworn for a number of Hit Points equal to the creature’s level.
64. Wemmuth, Creature 15, Blood Leech [reaction] ... The wemmuth heals a number of Hit Points equal to half the total damage dealt by Constrict.
65. Feasting Zombie, template, Feast [two-actions] ... the zombie can feast upon its flesh to heal itself. This restores an amount of Hit Points equal to the zombie’s level.
66. Goblin War Chanter, Creature 1, spell soothe
67. Lamia Matriarch, Creature 8, spell soothe
68. Kolyarut, Creature 12, regeneration 15 (deactivated by chaotic)
69. Pleroma, Creature 20, regeneration 20 (deactivated by chaotic)
70. Pit Fiend, Creature 20, regeneration 30 (deactivated by good)
71. Dezullon, Creature 10, regeneration 15 (deactivated by fire)
72. Hydra, Creature 6, head regrowth and hydra regeneration
73. Crag Linnorm, Creature 14, regeneration 10 (deactivated by cold iron)
74. Ice Linnorm, Creature 17, regeneration 10 (deactivated by cold iron)
75. Tarn Linnorm, Creature 20, regeneration 15 (deactivated by cold iron)
76. Tor Linnorm, Creature 21, regeneration 20 (deactivated by cold iron)
77. Mu Spore, Creature 21, regeneration 50 (deactivated by sonic)
78. Troll, Creature 5, regeneration 20 (deactivated by acid or fire)
79. Troll King, Creature 10, regeneration 30 (deactivated by acid or fire)
80. Wendigo, Creature 17, regeneration 30 (deactivated by cold iron)
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I did the same for the 84 NPCs in the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Gamemastery Guide.
1. Assassin, Creature 8, Medicine +14
2. Priest of Pharasma, Creature 6, Medicine +14, also spell heal and healing hands
3. Hunter, Creature 7, Medicine +15
4. Apothecary, Creature -1, Medicine +10, carries minor elixir of life (2) and healer’s tools
5. Physician, Creature -1, Medicine +12, Items minor elixirs of life (2), healer’s tools, medical textbook
6. Surgeon, Creature 2, Medicine +16, Items healer’s tools, scalpel (3)
7. Plague Doctor, Creature 5, Medicine +13, carries healer’s tools, minor potion of healing (4), also spells heal, neutralize poison, remove disease
8. Executioner, Creature 6, Medicine +10
9. Sage, Creature 6, Medicine +12
10. Reckless Scientist, Creature 6, Medicine +10, carries moderate antidote, moderate antiplague, and 3 lesser elixirs of life.
11. Advisor, Creature 5, carries minor healing potion, and spell soothe
12. Acolyte, Creature 1, spell heal
13. Prophet, Creature 2, spell heal
14. Chronicler, Creature 3, scroll of heal, Live to Tell the Tale
15. Beast Tamer, Creature 4, focus spell heal animal
16. Despot, Creature 5, carries 2 minor healing potion
17. Gang Leader, Creature 7, carries minor potion of healing
17 out of 84 would be 20%, but I don't think the Executioner, Sage, Chronicler, Despot, and Gang Leader count as people who heal. 12 out of 84 is 14%. The NPCs in the Healer family carry healer's tools, but others who would use Medicine to heal, such as the Priest of Pharasma and the Hunter, don't.
Please understand this is a game first and not an accurate simulation of reality. To elaborate on Mathmuse's post, there's no need to give the latrine diggers Digging Lore.
It says right here in the diggers union hall #623 handbook that every differ much have Digger Lore to apply for a job. It's be against union rules to not have the skill! ;)
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No it isn't. At the levels where trained proficiency is appropriate for PCs and monsters, it is the difference between "I have to wait several days, and in that time the heroes can attack me several times fully ealed up for free each time".
As monsters gain hit points they also gain skill proficiency levels. You never see a high level monster with a +8 modifier, for example.
But you do see monsters at every level without the skill at all. Which is precisely my point.
I fully get that the game requires you to be able to heal up between encounters, and that Paizo wanted to get rid of CLW wands. But they could have so easily implemented this in a way that doesn't assume a trained skill. They could have implemented it as a heroic ability that many monsters could gain too. I mean, if heroes can spend a single action to get a fallen ally back on their feet, it is not unrealistic to assume a Tyrannosaurus Rex would heal back up if you just leave it alone for an hour.
If you don't invest further into medicine you'll be healing on average 18 life per hour per character once you always crit. That is not a lot of healing a couple levels into the game. If you let the party game it completely then that's fine if you don't like it you could let the animal attack them while they are healing, flee, get reinforcements,... If you want dynamic then add dynamic to your games.
If you are saying that your heroes can't track down and kill wounded monsters you are playing a quite different game than me...Anyway, the game's world building isn't helped by lopsided rules.
Yes, if you treat an adventure as a roller-coaster where nothing outside the adventure is ever important, this is not a big issue.
I just wish Paizo cared more for all the players that want to use their game for something more than that...
This is an example illustrating this. Don't make free rapid healing possible and then just give it to heroes, or your game will feel videogamey and artificial as a result.
Ok let's take the Caustic Wolf from Plaguestone's first fight with a +8 to survival so that's a DC 18 to track.
Even trained at lvl 1 with a wisdom caster (+7) their chances to track the Wolf would be exactly 50/50.Survival is very niche as a skill imo since it doesn't fall into the medicine, spell casting, combat or stealth category. It's a thing the GM actively has to include because stranding characters that can't subsist themselves somewhere w/o resources is going to be a struggle. Which mostly just leaves the scout archetype and tracking. Tracking can be pretty important to be fair but most other skills offer much more than that.
Please understand this is a game first and not an accurate simulation of reality. To elaborate on Mathmuse's post, there's no need to give the latrine diggers Digging Lore.It says right here in the diggers union hall #623 handbook that every differ much have Digger Lore to apply for a job. It's be against union rules to not have the skill! ;)
I would think that Poop Lore would be more appropriate for latrine diggers to have myself.
I would think that Poop Lore would be more appropriate for latrine diggers to have myself.Please understand this is a game first and not an accurate simulation of reality. To elaborate on Mathmuse's post, there's no need to give the latrine diggers Digging Lore.It says right here in the diggers union hall #623 handbook that every differ much have Digger Lore to apply for a job. It's be against union rules to not have the skill! ;)
I'd say they are a subdivision of the ditch diggers guild so Digging is more important. That and think that lore would be for the sewage maintenance technician guild. ;)
I don't want to play in a setting where Leukodaemons, dragons, and deros carry healer pouches.
Deros are short, wiry humanoids with milky white eyes, gray-blue skin, and wild shocks of off-white or gray hair. The descendants of a mysterious type of fey abandoned in the deepest, darkest caverns of Golarion, deros are the subject of fearful legends and folk tales to most of the world’s surface races. They skulk beneath major metropolitan areas, performing cruel and twisted experiments on unwilling subjects. A dero is 3 feet tall and weighs approximately 70 pounds.
I was surprised that all three deros in the Bestiary were trained in medicine. I presume that they use their Medicine skill in their twisted experiments on the kidnapped subjects. Thus, they might not use Medicine for healing. That could explain why they don't carry healer's tools.
As for dragons and leukodaemans, they are so magical that they might not need physical healer's tools. Instead, they could manifest magical energies as the tools for their Medicine.
Alas, all this is GM fiat. The rules don't explain.
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What do you think?
2 things:
- You aren't able to retreat to all fights with ease. PF2 very high damage spikes makes retreat a risky behavior. I'm not sure your strategy is even good in the first place.- Enemies are not supposed to stand there and wait for death. Especially when they have been attacked by a bunch of adventurers. If the enemy is intelligent, it should get reinforcement or jeopardize the PCs objective in some way or just flee to never be seen again. Now, for a stupid monster, then it's a valid tactic I've allowed my players to use. Stupid monsters are stupid and abusing their low intelligence is what a coordinated party should do.
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Great stuff. Now we know the intent of the designers! :-)
Well we know the intent for those that made the Beginner's Box for those that are playing the Beginner's Box... Not sure what it means for those that aren't playing it.
It means it is the only statement of intent from the developers.
Again, JUST for the Beginner's Box. It doesn't seem off the wall that them might include something to make things easy ot work with in there but not the main game. As such, I don't see it at all useful in divining intent here for a non-Beginner's Box game. So it's just as easy to see that intent that it DOESN'T follow into the normal game as that quote didn't follow to it.
Unless there is another saying "monsters should not be given a free heal up if the characters retreat and attack again" we can justify our own GM decision with this as a reference.
I mean, you can justify your decisions with tea leaves and electronic voice phenomena too. You don't need anything to justify it to yourself and I know I'm not particularly impressed with it as a justification: I'd be more impressed with you just saying it was your personal preference.
I far prefer it to have at least some guidance on what the devs were thinking, so I don't have to come up with a decision that might be the polar opposite of how Paizo plays the game internally. :-)
It'd be one thing is it was actually the version we where playing and talking about. We're talking about the 'quick start' version with a lot different in it [both inclusions and exclusions].
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*) yes, and to the town priest, and the one tribal shaman. That still counts as "no one" given that it doesn't help the dinosaurs, aberrations or even most humanoids (since basically nobody else except the party has the wits to always keep company with a healer)
For dinosaurs wouldn't be a feat under medicine? You know, veterinary medicine? Medicine for animals.
And where do you even learn about the inner workings of aberrations? "Damn it Jim. I don't even know his anatomy."
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I far prefer it to have at least some guidance on what the devs were thinking, so I don't have to come up with a decision that might be the polar opposite of how Paizo plays the game internally. :-)
Why would the knowledge of how Paizo devs play the game make any difference?
Monsters and other enemies should heal or not according to the needs of the plot of the campaign you are in. The Paizo devs are not running your game, your GM and the players at your table are.
Now, certainly you can take the guideline from the Beginner's Box and apply that to the other games you are playing. In general, that is how I would run my games too - if the party retreats from battle, the still living enemies get healed up the same as the players do. Dead enemies stay dead. More reinforcements may or may not arrive. The enemies may leave the area to either hide from or pursue the party.
On the other hand, if the quest is to whittle down and finally defeat a tough monster before it manages to get to a city after a couple of days of travel for the monster, then I would probably have it keep its damage between hit and run attacks by the party. Because that is part of the plot and how I had set up the scenario.