The copyright situation hasn't changed, so no.
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I appreciate all the work the community did in trying to "update" the old cards with the newer ones, but I'm actually more interested in going the other direction.
I have far better memories and experiences from the game under the original 1.0 cards. I always thought it was a mistake for them to suddenly create a "2.0" version of the game, but I understood how I was in the minority considering how many people were jumping on the 2.0 bandwagon not only in the the adventure game, but also the actual RPG.
I'd be interested in seeing someone actually take the newer cards and fit them to the old template. The one thing that the new version did better was create armor that could be displayed so that it wouldn't waste hand space. I also liked the design of the new Seoni better, but that's something that easily could have been put on the old card template.
If I ever play this game again in the future, and I'm sure I will, it will definitely be the original campaigns (big box and PFS) with the large number of characters available. Perhaps it'd be fun to create new cards to go into those class decks.
PACG is a great game, especially for me since it’s a game that my wife enjoys playing and we can play with just the two of us or with our regular gaming group. The rich source material in the RPG provided considerable room for expansion and continued development. I am definitely among those that were dismayed to hear that there would be no additional products for the game. I have actually been entertaining a few ideas that might alleviate that; and I think that most would work best as community efforts.
First, though, some explanation of language. When we conducted the project to update the characters, I referred to the Rise of the Runelords/Skull & Shackles/Wrath of the Righteous/Mummy’s Mask era as “legacy.” With the retirement of official PACG products and the overall game becoming a legacy game under Paizo, I’m now referring to it as “classic PACG.”
I think that there are a number of things that can be done to support classic PACG.
1. Expanding Classic PACG
2. Updating Classic PACG to Incorporate Core Concepts
3. Converting Classic PACG into Core
4. Expanding Core PACG
One of the obvious ways to do this is Green Eyed Liar’s suggestion: develop official Pathfinder RPG scenarios/adventures/adventure paths (S/A/AP) for PACG. The trick here is figuring out whether or not we are allowed to do this now. Presumably the previous prohibition was to give Paizo/Lone Shark freedom for future products, but that doesn’t look to be an issue now.
Something that I think would really facilitate homegrown development would be creating baseline cards for regular boons and banes. Bestiary entries could become monsters; equipment can be turned into items, weapons, and armor; spells can be developed into spell cards; etc. We might even look at the work that Obsidian did (I’m sure there are some legal issues we would have to observe if we did this). The goal here would be to create a large inventory of cards.
One thing that would really support this effort would be if the official spreadsheet of templates might be made available to the community, helping us to continue the good work.
These cards might be used in myriad ways. The easiest, of course, is to just add them to APs/decks. Alternately, these might be used in custom scenarios/adventures/adventure paths (S/A/AP) and we might even make the editable versions available so that developers might tweak them. Another use I was considering was creating a classic version of the Core Set. Actually, there might be multiple Core Sets, with a different Core Set for each different region.
The development of additional characters also has a lot of potential (and this applies to both classic and core versions). We’re seeing some new iconics, but there are also a lot of possibilities from various sourcebooks. I’ve previously discussed ideas in this vein here.
What I would be really interested in would be a Community Rulebook that combines all of the classic books and updates them. This might even be maintained as a living rulebook. Elements that are optional to APs (e.g., ships in S&S, mythic in WotR, merchants in MM, etc.) would be provided as extra add-ons, and we might develop some additional add-ons that developers might include in custom S/A/AP. This is also where the living rulebook concept comes in, incorporating such elements later as they are added, playtested, and refined by the community.
Dulcee’s idea hadn’t occurred to me, but I find it intriguing. If I’m interpreting Dulcee’s idea correctly, it’s preserving the classic rules, but incorporating some concepts (improvements) from the Core Set. It basically sounds like a Core > Classic conversion. I’m not sure if the suggestion is to just bring in those concepts or if we’re talking about full conversion of wording (or both). I wonder, though, if it might also be possible to update classic cards to incorporate Core concepts. Many of the classic cards already have core counterparts, providing a solid example of how to change wording. Those might prove instructive, though, showing where adjustments might need to be more than just the wording of powers, especially with the change in interactions.
This takes the previous concept and turns it up to 11. It’s basically fully translating each AP and deck to work in the Core Set. The easy work is converting verbiage to work with rules. The more detailed work is making other adjustments (e.g., check to defeat/acquire changes).
Another idea is to expand the range of Core cards by translating all of the classic cards using Core Conversion language. This would include cards from the APs as well as the character decks and Society S/A/APs.
Green Eyed Liar’s suggestion/question about developing official Pathfinder RPG S/A/AP also applies here.
My idea about creating expanded cards also applies here.
All cards might be created as digital files that players can print and cut out, similar to those that are used in Society play. Alternately, they might be made available via Drive Thru Cards for those players that really want them.
There are probably plenty of other ideas out there. I think the trick is finding out what we can do and then figuring out what we would like to do, and in what order.
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After reading Keith Richmond's reply to the question about why the PACG will no longer be supported, I'm wondering if the future of PACG is virtual.
The primary explanation attributed to the decision to cancel PACG was money. Assuming I'm understanding this portion correctly, insufficient products were selling to recoup the cost to print the game. I know that many players have taken to Tabletop Simulator, especially since early 2020. Could future development of PACG, whether official or unofficial, shift over to TTS as a means of sustaining the game?
Alternately (or additionally), could the print version of the game become a sandbox game? A core set might be vastly expanded, providing much more variety and progression. The game would then be driven by more support for customization (building on the strong foundation established in the Core Set). Expansions might then be AP-based, or might be thematic (e.g., adding Tian, the Darklands, etc.) with smaller boxes. Using this model, a lot could be done to expand the game following the model of the PACS, with scenario/adventure/adventure path storybooks downloaded instead of being printed. This might support a lot more homegrown stuff, especially things like we see in the Tangents discussion (project?).
The latter idea sounds like it would run into the same financial problems that the current model has, so I'm just spitballing ideas...
Note that this is in reply to a comment posted in another discussion. That discussion was about the reason for PACG's cancellation (?), with the future discussion being OT.
I would much rather see a discussion on any future of the ACG being held somewhere other than on the Paizo forums, so it immediately apparent that it isn't in any way an "Official Paizo" channel. The OPF Discord server has made it clear that any discussion there should be limited to PACS play, so that venue isn't an option. Maybe Board Game Geek?
I think that a lot of that depends upon how much interaction/support Paizo might provide. Even if all that is given is a nod of the head, that carries more weight here than if the project is conducted at the BGG. Anything over at the BGG automatically becomes homegrown and unofficial. If Paizo "sponsors" community development, collaboration and communication would be much better where we can reasonably expect regular responses and input. Posing the question here isn't just about asking the community what can be done. It's also about asking Paizo/Lone Shark what will be allowed.
I use BGG extensively for hosting/sharing files, but I think that anything remotely resembling an approved community effort would be much better here. I would expect any content that the community develops to be hosted/shared at the BGG, but the actual development would take place here. Just my opinion (I'm the equivalent of a level 0 Goblin, so the whole tribe needs to weigh in).
Do you know whether they've considered crowdfunding, like LSG did with Apocrypha, to cover costs up front?
I don't know, but I am guessing one disincentive to crowdfunding is that two companies (Paizo and Lone Shark) have to agree to the plan (at least in some fashion).
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All those points are very valid.
That said, my $0.02 from someone who starts to have quite an insight on both PACG and crowdfunding(IMHO):
A good thing about crowdfunding the way it is currently handled by plateforms like KS and others is that you can tune your campain with add-ons and qstretch goals. And that's VERY compatible with a Legacy / Collectible / Adventure CG.
You can ask for a min funding that covers your "Core" (like 5 main RPG classes, basic bestiary and a single adventure)
- Put as optional buys other gameplay main adventures/classes that you think will have a great success so with a price tag coherent with a estimated large set of backers
- Put as optional "deluxe" buys remaining "optional" gameplay main adventures/classes or non gameplay stuff (dice, monsters/boss minis, screens, playmats and the like) that you think will have a limited success so with a price tag coherent with a limited set of backers (i. e. more expensive to ensure you get a margin even with a smaller serie) - if you aren't sure, don't offer it
- Put as stretch goals "important" gameplay items that aren't necessairy for Core but you know people will spend to get (other main classes, iconic minis, single scenarios, iconic bosses / monsters / artefact cards...) -any single one you be "cheap" to produce so you can keep the funding steps between SG challenging but after all easily reached.
Works so well for a little set of companies that constantly raise millions of bucks, sometimes 3 or 4 times a year.
Paizo and LSG have the dream marketing knowledge and backers/fan base to make that happen - or to allow another company to make it happen.
More important, we aren't talking about a new game but about PACG where at least two thirds of the usual main risks for such a crowdfunding campain is already crushed :
- "Game" is already funded (it's tested, rules are already written and 99% FAQed, parts are already known by factories....)
- Tons of art / IP / AP is already done / there / written
- Core set is already in retail (so the minimum "Core" to be added as minimum game in your campain is actually an extension, so the minimum volume of content needing to be included is much less)
- Fan based in already built on a generic "Golarion" IP
Now to be precise, to be on the very very safe side, I would only fund creating and sending to backers some cards. Nothing else. Printing / sending decks of 54-60 cards is an industrial very well oiled machinery with many initial costs already gone.
See the last move from LLG regarding AHCG : simplifying by selling the full campain as one or two boxes rather than monthly subscription of single decks. Less packaging, less shipping and handling costs, hence less taxes for buyers, less dependencies on production delays, and so on. The full business model change helps keeping the fan based, if not increasing it.
That's another good point in crowdfunding : done once, then gone.
And of course you can take the opportunity of the crowdfunding campain to sell some of your PACG legacy inventory. Some backers may not want to just buy old stuff in a "dead" game, but be interested to complete a collection if it's a "still alive" one. especially if completing the collection means more funds to improve the additional campain they are backing.
Just my $0.02....
I wish Liz, Vic and Mike would still be here to provide some feedbacks.
Nothing can go wrong.
Everything is under control.
Have a croissant.
Frencois - KS superbacker since even before superbacker became a thing :-)
Now to the real question : where is Hawk when we need him ?
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I think that worrying about crowdfunding sites is putting the cart before the horse. A key to every successful crowdfunding effort is that there is a solid plan in place. The people conducting the campaign know what they can produce at different funding thresholds and develop the campaign accordingly. At this point we don't even have a product. More importantly, we don't even know if Paizo/Lone Shark would approve of a crowdfunded campaign for a community-developed product for their game/IP. Even if they were amenable to that, I'm pretty sure that they would want to know what the end product would look like (content and appearance) beforehand. We really need to focus on the content.
In my opinion, our priorities should be:
1. Figuring out what we can develop. This narrows down the list of potential projects.
2. Figuring out what of the above people are most interested in helping to develop. This reduces the list of potential projects even further, getting it down to those that might actually be completed as a community effort.
3. Prioritizing/sequencing the above.
4. Figuring out our methodology for conducting each project.
5. Executing each project in turn (some might be conducted concurrently).
The default for each project is that it would be developed as a product that could be downloaded and printed in accordance with the CUP. Anything above and beyond that (e.g., Drive Thru Cards, publication via Paizo, etc.) is pie in the sky. Don't get me wrong - it would be great to see any of our community developed efforts actually published. I just think that we're setting ourselves up for disappointment if we make that the default expectation. Simply adding to the body of PACG content and helping other hobbyists to continue enjoying the game via community effort is a very realistic goal.
My assumption at this point is that the copyright won't change, preserving our current restrictions.
Some things I'm curious about have to do with what kind of help we might get from Paizo/Lone Shark. Something I would love to see is the files they had showing the templates for rules wordings to help us as we expand upon the game (both classic and core). Those, too, might be a bit much to expect, however. I think a reasonable minimum would be the occasional nudge to keep us from deviating from what is allowed and to push us beyond friction points. Regular input from Paizo/Lone Shark isn't something I really expect to see. PACG is being supported as a legacy system, not something that will be actively supported - they now have other things to focus on so we should really just be thankful for the occasional bit of input without expecting them to hold our hands.
Unless something changes, I think this is going to be up to us.
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Now to the real question : where is Hawk when we need him ?
I can't speak for the 269th iteration of Hawkmoon but I know him and the rest of the ACG VO's are looking into this sort of thing for both what we can do for society as well as non-society. We don't quite have anything to share at the moment (or, at least I don't) though.
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I think that worrying about crowdfunding sites is putting the cart before the horse. A key to every successful crowdfunding effort is that there is a solid plan in place. The people conducting the campaign know what they can produce at different funding thresholds and develop the campaign accordingly. At this point we don't even have a product. More importantly, we don't even know if Paizo/Lone Shark would approve of a crowdfunded campaign for a community-developed product for their game/IP. Even if they were amenable to that, I'm pretty sure that they would want to know what the end product would look like (content and appearance) beforehand. We really need to focus on the content.
In my opinion, our priorities should be:
1. Figuring out what we can develop. This narrows down the list of potential projects.
2. Figuring out what of the above people are most interested in helping to develop. This reduces the list of potential projects even further, getting it down to those that might actually be completed as a community effort.
3. Prioritizing/sequencing the above.
4. Figuring out our methodology for conducting each project.
5. Executing each project in turn (some might be conducted concurrently).
The default for each project is that it would be developed as a product that could be downloaded and printed in accordance with the CUP. Anything above and beyond that (e.g., Drive Thru Cards, publication via Paizo, etc.) is pie in the sky. Don't get me wrong - it would be great to see any of our community developed efforts actually published. I just think that we're setting ourselves up for disappointment if we make that the default expectation. Simply adding to the body of PACG content and helping other hobbyists to continue enjoying the game via community effort is a very realistic goal.
My assumption at this point is that the copyright won't change, preserving our current restrictions.
Some things I'm curious about have to do with what kind of help we might...
I'm with you on all of this (though I do think there's still at least the potential to make use of DriveThruCards, but that would be a later thing once we design some fun stuff). My proposal is that we all come together as a community and make a new adventure path, built on top of the Core Set, based LOOSELY on the storylines found in early seasons of Pathfinder Society scenarios. There is a lot of rich content there, and since they're part of the Section 1 list in the Community Use Policy, we can 'descriptively reference storylines' from them, so as long as we're not copying any text from the scenarios directly, it should be totally fine.
Who's with me? I think we could make a really fun, feature-rich adventure path and really give the community some content we can be proud of!
How do I sign up?
My proposal is that we all come together as a community and make a new adventure path, built on top of the Core Set, based LOOSELY on the storylines found in early seasons of Pathfinder Society scenarios. There is a lot of rich content there, and since they're part of the Section 1 list in the Community Use Policy, we can 'descriptively reference storylines' from them, so as long as we're not copying any text from the scenarios directly, it should be totally fine.
I would be happy to help out in this effort. If nothing else, I can help with playtesting, wrangling over ideas, and creating a storybook. If I can get my hands on the adventures I can be of even more help.
I suggest a new topic for this in the Homebrew and House Rules forum.
as an experiment, I tried to do some partial "CONVERTING CLASSIC PACG INTO CORE" [TM tylerbeck] using my Skull & Shackles and just with the locations to see how complicated it might be.
The file is available on BGG and lists both the suggested rough conversion into Core and the almost original text (errata included) with the changes marked.
Of course, there is a slight issue of Core locations not hanging around while the original ones are still available for the characters to loiter there. That can't be helped unless there are substantial changes to the cards.
I'll take a gander when I have time.
I think that the locations issue was solved by this update to the Core Conversion Guide:
When you would put a location card back into the vault, flip it over. If it does not have a Pathfinder Adventure Card Game logo on the back (meaning it's an older location), it stays in play and local characters do not automatically move; closed locations are automatically guarded.
P.S.: I kept the original "Structural damage is dealt to your ship" instead of the "XYZ suffers damage" as I am not a native English speaker and do not know if inanimate objects can really "suffer". :)
Inanimate objects can "suffer" damage.
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Hello everyone!
Alright, so a group of enthusiastic PACG lovers from the official Paizo organized play Discord server were discussing all of this, and we decided to branch off and take the conversation to another server. Now, I'd like to invite all of you to join that server and help us plan and design some large-scale community-based projects.
To join the server, please click the following link: Skizzerz's Discord
We would love to see any of you there who would be interested in helping out, whether that be through designing scenarios, characters and cards, or writing and editing story text, or simply reviewing what others create. I am fully convinced that together, we can really put together some great content!
Sincerely,
Tyler "Cartmanbeck" Beck
To join the server, please click the following link: Skizzerz's Discord
Hey Tyler -- will you be posting this info on boardgamegeek? (If not - would be OK if I do so?)
My thanks to you and skizzerz and all involved in this noble effort.
I would love to see updates/finished products posted both here and at the BGG for those of us that aren't on Discord.
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To join the server, please click the following link: Skizzerz's Discord
Hey Tyler -- will you be posting this info on boardgamegeek? (If not - would be OK if I do so?)
My thanks to you and skizzerz and all involved in this noble effort.
Please feel free to share the link over there. I'm not as familiar with the BGG forums, myself.
Posted to BGG in the PACG Core Set forum:
BGG cross-post
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I would love to see updates/finished products posted both here and at the BGG for those of us that aren't on Discord.
We will definitely share the results as widely as possible. Discord lets us collaborate on the design at a much more rapid pace compared to a forum and lowers the barrier for participation (the Paizo forums are terrible for collaboration efforts for a number of reasons; lots of people struggle with formatting, can’t edit posts after an hour, can’t embed images, big posts might just get eaten if you take too long and forget to save the post to your clipboard, …)
I believe the first two projects are going to be continuing the Season 7 storyline for adventures 4-6 and making a “Core 2” to extend Core with additional cards to form a stronger base to build future community APs.
Physical cards will be available on DriveThru; we’ve gotten an ok from both Paizo and DriveThru to create sets of cards on there with the standard PACG card back so you can purchase the entire card bundle for e.g. “Core 2.”
In terms of community help, everyone is welcome even if all you feel qualified to give are suggestions and ideas :)
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I would love to see updates/finished products posted both here and at the BGG for those of us that aren't on Discord.Physical cards will be available on DriveThru; we’ve gotten an ok from both Paizo and DriveThru to create sets of cards on there with the standard PACG card back so you can purchase the entire card bundle for e.g. “Core 2.”
In terms of community help, everyone is welcome even if all you feel qualified to give are suggestions and ideas :)
Would it be possible to put this new content on the official tabletop simulator module for PACG?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2068179987
It would be a great boon for people like myself that are still in a lockdown situation (vaccines unfortunately on several countries are still missing). I can definitely dedicate time to help if needed!
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I would love to see updates/finished products posted both here and at the BGG for those of us that aren't on Discord.Physical cards will be available on DriveThru; we’ve gotten an ok from both Paizo and DriveThru to create sets of cards on there with the standard PACG card back so you can purchase the entire card bundle for e.g. “Core 2.”
In terms of community help, everyone is welcome even if all you feel qualified to give are suggestions and ideas :)
Would it be possible to put this new content on the official tabletop simulator module for PACG?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2068179987
It would be a great boon for people like myself that are still in a lockdown situation (vaccines unfortunately on several countries are still missing). I can definitely dedicate time to help if needed!
Hi Kord!
I want to make one little thing clear before I answer your question... the Tabletop Simulator module that I made that is listed as "official" was NOT created by Paizo. It is the version that Paizo has decided to officially allow us to play Pathfinder Adventure Card Society on, and they have the right at any moment to revoke that, and if they did, I would remove that "official" word from the title and perhaps take it down entirely. I don't envision that ever happening, but I just wanted to make it clear that the module was created by me, currently a Venture Captain for the PACG Society, but was NOT created by Paizo themselves.Now, all that being said, Paizo HAS given us permission to allow our players to play online using the Tabletop Simulator module that I created, which is awesome. My plan is to include as much of the community-created content I can in that module, with clear notes that the content is NOT official and was created by community members for the enjoyment of community members. But nothing will be added until the community creation group has confirmed that it's release-quality. :-D
Not wanting to be left out of the fun, I took the plunge and joined Discord. The link in this discussion didn't work, but the link at the BGG worked fine.
Here's the updated Discord server link for the effort led by skizzerz, cartmanbeck and others to create new fan content for PACG:
https://discord.com/invite/fwGgZK7
...snip...I believe the first two projects are going to be continuing the Season 7 storyline for adventures 4-6 and making a “Core 2” to extend Core with additional cards to form a stronger base to build future community APs.
...snip...
Oh, finishing up Season 7 would be wonderful! My group was so sad when we learned it was just...ended. We haven't played since we 'finished' it. Would be great to have a proper ending to it.
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Oh, finishing up Season 7 would be wonderful! My group was so sad when we learned it was just...ended. We haven't played since we 'finished' it. Would be great to have a proper ending to it.
...snip...I believe the first two projects are going to be continuing the Season 7 storyline for adventures 4-6 and making a “Core 2” to extend Core with additional cards to form a stronger base to build future community APs.
...snip...
Just as a fair warning, nothing we're doing is going to be officially sanctioned. So the characters you use in the Season 7 continuation won't be official PACS characters afterwards.