Machine Slayer

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This was the cheapest laugh i got in the year, congratulations.

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I have a problem to understand how a character qualifies for a Unified Tradition. So far, i had understood the following:

*Casting Tradition: Whenever you gain the first level on a Sphere Casting Class (or archetype that grants sphere casting) you can select a Casting Tradition.

*Martial Traditions: At character creation, select a Martial Tradition if your class grants it, or trade your starting proficiencies (other than simple weapons, light armor and bucklers) to gain one.

Unified Tradition: Here the lines blurs a little bit. Which classes are allowed to take a unified tradition: Sphere casters, Combat Practitioners or a classes that deal with both elements?

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Almost drown while swimming on a lake when i was 8.

I got a little away from my family while exploring the lake (i was a very enthusiastic swimmer as a kid) untill i reached a big stone surfacing the water and decided to climb it. As soon as i got near it, something sucked my left foot and immediatly went underwater (some air vacuum effect at the stone's base?).
I desperatly climbed to the surface and screamed for help, but at that moment my parents were assisting my small sister so after a second, i went down again. My energies were spent from the first climb, oxigen was almost gone so i stop struggling and everything fades to black.

Suddenly, i felt something pulling me up insanelly fast, and whithin seconds i was breathing again that sweet sweet air again.

Long story short: My life was saved by a taxi-driver that decided to stop at the lake to have a swim break, and was the ONLY ONE that managed to see a little poor bastard struggling for his life at the back of the lake.

To this day on, i always say that my life was saved by a very oportunistic random encounter. And also, i always leave a generous tip to kind taxi drivers (you never know...)

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An almost mandatory feat you will need if you are playing a maneuver rogue is Surprise Maneuver: Just get yourself in a flanking position (or deny your target's dexterity) and go nuts with a bonus to your CMB equal to the sneak attack dice you would roll!

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15 years old, RuneQuest 1st edition. My first character was named Gundalf (because apparently, 'Gandalf' is not a good name for a Human Barbarian).

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Buenos Aires, Argentina. Hola Pathfinders!

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Tangaroa wrote:

Back Sphinx Boys

Dwarf Investigator
Dwarf Druid (snake companion)
Dwarf Oracle of Bones
Dwarf Monk

See the pattern?

... we're all 3/4 BAB!

I have always wanted to play on an all dwarf party, count me jealous!

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Group Name - 'Los Escarabajos de Jade' (or The Jade Scarabs, we are all Argentinian players)

Current Path - The Half Dead City, we are about to enter the third place on the Wati Necropolis.

Seherab Deathkeeper (me) - LN Male Dwarven (Pahmet) Unbreakable Fighter 1/Spellbreaker Inquisitor 2 (Nethys Worshiper)

Shanun - LG Garundi Male Human Warpiest of Sarenrae 3 (Healing Blessing)

Fahim - NN Garundi Male Human Wizard 3 (Necromancer, Nethys Worshiper)

Latya - CG Keleshite Female Human Scout Rogue 3

Right now party is doing quite ok, had one or two fights that were close to a TPK. Since we've got a wand of infernal healing, our recovery out of fights has improved significatively.

My char uses a Dwarven Longhammer (or Falchion at close quarters) and is the main damage dealer, Shanun is a sword (scimitar) and board frontliner and the party's tank, Latya flank with us to get sneak or uses a shortbow and Fahim blasts from afar with his spell repertorie.

Personally i'm quite happy with the campaign and my character: Taking the Glory of Old + Steel Soul and the Strong-Willed feature from the Spellbreaker archetype, i've become quite resistant against hostile magic in general. Good HP and AC, lots of skills (taking the Heresy Inquisition makes me available as a party face with low charisma) and divine spells that buff my already decent melee damage. Plus, roleplaying a dwarf is always a blast for me.

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It's a 7.5/10 for me: Big nostalgia hit, nice casting overall, spectacular effects.


The story is plain and unimaginative, mostly a New Hope rehash with a fresh face. Dialogs are quite standard, with a LOT of puns and only few of them gave me a real laugh.
I kinda liked Kylo Ren...until he started to give tantrums and whinnings, plus the removal of his helmet killed the "big bad boss" mood for me (making him "Darth Puber"). In any case, i would have prefered that his helmet removal was at the scene with Han Solo, for a more dramatic effect.
The transition from "Return of a Jedi" to this is quite strange and forcefull: Why has the Empire reformed around the First Order...WHY is it called the First Order? Why the Resistance still exists, if the Republic has been behind them all the time? Why the Republic does not simple actively fight against the Empire remenants with the Emperor, Darth Vader and the Death Star Destroyed? Who the hell is Lord Snoke (horrible name by the way), where did he come from?
WHY THE REPUBLIC IS CLUSTERED IN A SINGLE SYSTEM AND GETS ONE-SHOTED WITH A GIGANTIC PLOT CANON? Why Kylo Ren venerates Darth Vader as the ultimate evil figure when he was REDEEMED at the end of "The Return of the Jedi", making him the worst traitor to the Empire ever?
Shouldn't Leia have learned SOMETHING tangible about the force right now? I would have loved to see her as some kind of mentor to Rey, or even the guardian of Luke's Lightsaber. Instead, she plays the role of a "nice grandma", when she could have done so more.

Finally: If Luke needs around 3 movies to be trained as a decent Jedi Knight (with both force powers and lightsaber skills), Rey suddenly is able to defeat Kilo Ren because "she listened to the force?".

With a little more depth, this could have been the movie of the year for me. As it is, its a nice foundation for another trilogy, but nothing too memorable.

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I don't see the purpose of gaining complete spell immunity at level 20, if you gain 15+Class Level at 19 level (which is already a good ammount).

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There's a gunslinger archetype that focus on Siege Weapons, i would not know if its what you are looking for but here it is: gunslinger-archetypes/siege-gunner-gunslinger-archetype

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"The Lord of Chaos", from the Wheel of Time. Started the saga three months ago, i like it quite a lot!

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As a Battlestar Galactica ans sci—fi fan, i was always intrigued by B5 but never really took the time to watch it. That was untill 2 years ago, when a friend of mine insisted me SO MUCH to see at least the first episodes that i gave it a shot.

Today, it remains the ONLY series in which i have ever cried. Seriously, the last episode was a freeking ninjas—chopping—onnions fest.

Lando and G'Kar are by far the BEST characters , their relationship grows at an amazing rate and you manage to love/hate them at the same time, in several ocassions.

In Valen's name!

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I would also like to know where to get the errata. I've got the PDF version from Paizo.

Nothing but love for this book, it has revitalized my faith in spellcasting for pathfinder.

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Starting "Sound of a Thousand Screams".

Duke Sigismund Zhukov (Fighter 15) - Ruler of the Kingdom of Zhukovia, with Stagfall as the capital city (founded on the Staglord fort), Vordafall (former Varnhold) and Tigerfall (former Fort Drelev) as secondary cities. A Human, Legal-Neutral sword-and-board fighter, wielder of the powerfull artfifact sword "Briar". Tough, stuborn, deadly and a somewhat distracted fellow (wisdom was his dump stat). Has married the young daughter of a powerfull Brevoy noble house and commited his armies on the civil war against Restov. Made a pact with the Soothscale Tribe and the Tiger Lords, whom now are his most powerfull allies and lend armies in times of neccesity.

Lord Patrician Brandon Zhukov (Rogue 15) - Former Royal Assasin, now acts as the the Patrician of Pitax, advising (controlling, in the shadows) the young new ruler of that nation after the "disappearance" of King Irovetti. A Human, Legal-Evil two-weapon combatant (adamantite shortswords).
Charismatic, resourceful and lethal, prone to get the company of good wine and fine woman. Tries to win allies before making enemies...but never forgets a betrayal, going to costly and inhuman lenghts to settle a score.

Hierophant Argat Zhukov (Druid 15) - The current spiritual leader of Zhukovia, focused on the Green Faith and desdains all other gods. A Half-Elf, True Neutral Earth Domain druid, focused on casting spells and using wild shape to explore.
Almost every creature on Zhukovia Wilds has heard of him: Able to walk between trees, summon storm and earthquakes to his enemies, and has a very serious attitute towards nature balance. Is/was Nyrissa 's lover for a time, but the party has no idea of that. Tends to use Baleful Polymorph to change his most powerful enemies into rabbits while they are weak, and has a herd of two male (Imeckus Stroon - Human Wizard 12, Gaetane - Wererat Ranger 12) and one female rabbit (Ngara - Spirit Naga Sorcerer 3). Plans to mate them to breed a new race of super-magical rabbits.

Magister Asaka Fushibayashi (Summoner 15) - Leader of Zhukovia's Magical Academy. A powerful Chaotic Neutral Human lady, with a winged serpent called Cyris as her eidolon. Has dealt a series of comercial trades between Zhukovia and several neighbour kingdoms. A care-free spirit and a powerfull ally of the Zhukov house.

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Pretty much everyone would recommend your player to rebuild his character as a Slayer, Investigator or Vivisectionist Alchemist, since those clases not only feel "roguish" enough but are better combatants.

If not, you could apply some house rules to help him stay in toes of other full BAB characters.
For example giving a +1 to all sneak attack rolls for every odd sneak attack die he has as a class feature (+1 at 1D6, +2 at 3D6 and so on).
Or, allow sneak attacks on other conditions other than flat-footed or flanked: Like Frightened, Panicked or Stunned. He could gain new conditions to sneak as he levels.

Etc, the point is to help him to do more damage and keeping his character more or less intact.

If not, then the only way i see for him to improve in combat is heavily investing in magic items or multiclassing on a full BAB class.

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There seems to be an issue on the Open Office last version file: When calculating the leadership scores (using Ultimate Campaign Core rules) it is listing some wrong values.

For example:

Alyan Finn (Paladin, Ruler)

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 17

When selecting him as a ruler, it should provide a +3 Bonus to Economy (due to his Charisma) but it is currently providing a +2.

Johan Cross (Rogue, Royal Enforcer)

STR 14
DEX 19
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 10

When selecting him as a ruler, it should provide a +4 Bonus to Loyalty (due to his Dexterity) but it is currently providing a +2.

Kesten Garess (Fighter, Warden)

STR 17
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 14

When selecting him as Warden, it should provide a +3 Bonus to Loyalty (due to his Strenght) but it is currently providing a +1.

Lastly, even if i change the stats on the Rulers label, the leadership scores will remain (mostly) the same.

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I loved the Ultimate Battle and Ultimate War products, i would be very interested in a supplement or add-on with a LOT of examples of armies (land, sea and airborne) created with those rules (also, having all the rules in one place to create armies from scratch would be much easier). There could be even space to tailor some of those armies, with background, officer names and so.
Ultimate Armies, perhaps?

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Normally you can only use Disarm, Sunder or Trip in replacement of an attack. You may use those options on a Flurry, be aware that if you don't have the correspondent Improved Feat you still cause an AoO.

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I have a 14th Human Rogue and have been playing with him through the whole Kingmaker AP.
There are two things that i have to mention before describing him:

1) I rolled his stats instead of using point buy (14 STR, 16 (+2) DEX, 15 CON, 16 INT, 11 WIS, 14 CHA)
2) We use a house-rule where, if you have the TWF feat, you can attack as a standard action with your main hand and off hand (must still use a full attack action to get extra attacks)

Our party is composed with a Human Fighter, Half-Elf Druid and Human Summoner (all 14th Lvl).

My experience through the whole campaign has told me that i am able to do more or less the same amount of damage (sometimes even more) that our sword and board Fighter and our Pouncing Eidolon, thanks to the TWF house rule.

This was only to single mobs (since i was unable to flat foot/flank more than one at the time), untill i got our Summoner to cast Improved Invisibility and turned me into a weapon of mass destruction (doing now 9D6 per attack, with two Frost Adamantite Shortswords).

Using also a mix of Fighting Defensive + Crane Style + Shield Spell (Rogue Talent) + Offensive Defensive (Rogue Talent) i am able to get a VERY decent AC, specially when fighting against one or two creatures. So far we had very little encounters that i cannot sneak attack (Oozes, Swarms and Elementals), and for those i always carry some wands/scrolls that will still make me usefull on the fight.

I took Improved Evasion, Hard Minded, the Twist Away and Steadfast Personality feats (Advanced Class Guide) so i am able to shake of most of every effect that allows a save.
Uncanny Dodge has also proved invaluable to not loose my AC to surprise attacks.

Finally, having a wide array of skills i have taken the role of the face of the party and trap disabler, speaking multiple languages that have turned invaluable in some ocassions. The Druid is the ultimate Scout since he has Wild Shape and a tremendous bonus to Perception (+35) and our Summoner focuses on several Knowledges.

Overall, i am quite happy with the PC, but i do understand why the lack of love for the class: I had to optimize every single bit to be able to shine along the rest, including house rules.

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Perhaps this has been already answered, but how can i make visible the other Army Sheets? (Army2, Army3). Even when i copy or create a new sheet i am not able to access it.

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We have been playing Kingmaker with the a house rule that you may attack with your both hands as a Standard action if you have the TWF feat (but must still spend a full action to get more attacks). It has been great for my Rogue (dual shortswords) and combat for all TWF characters is much more mobile.

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Outsider (air)
Outsider (chaotic)
Outsider (earth)
Outsider (evil)
Outsider (fire)
Outsider (good)
Outsider (lawful)
Outsider (native)
Outsider (water)

I do not play at PFS, but picking a "evil" as a subtype is not too general...your bane will only work against OUTSIDERS and they have to be EVIL for the bonus to work. Unless you are playing a themed adventure with this kind of foes appearing all over the place, it is a mostly a circunstancial bonus.

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Shield Champion Brawler is really nice, i'd love to play one.

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Awesome, i'll pick it out with my current rogue at KM to give a bump to my survivability. I wonder what would happen if you somehow you are immune to staggering? Either way, it's an immediate action, so it comes with all the usual drawbacks (once per turn and you don't have your swift action next turn). Thanks!

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Twist Away
Your quick reflexes and dexterous movements make up for your lack of stamina.
Prerequisite: Evasion.
Benefit: While you are wearing light armor or no armor, if you are forced to attempt a Fortitude saving throw, you can use an immediate action to instead attempt a Reflex saving throw (at the same DC). If you succeed at this saving throw and the attack has a reduced effect on a successful save, you avoid the effect entirely. Whether the saving throw is successful or not, you are staggered until the end of your next turn

Does this feat ONLY work on effects that have a reduced effect on a successful fortitude save? I would think that it's intended for all fortitude saves, but i find the bolded text slightly confusing.


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What happens if you use Two Handed Thrower + Quick Draw to throw your shield as a part of Flurry of Blows? Do the targets hit by the ricochet attacks (the ones after the first hit) also get the increased strength bonus damage? Or does only counts for the first hit?

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Just to make a note: The Unflinching class feature from the Unbreakable archetype applies only to mind affecting effects, not to all will saves (it's still better than the regular bravery feature).

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Simple question:

Destruction: The inquisitor is filled with divine wrath, gaining a +1 sacred bonus on all weapon damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every three inquisitor levels she possesses.

I could be confused since i'm used to see this kind of increases on spells (which list the cap), but does this means that the inquisitor get's the increment at levels 3, 6 ,9 ,12 ,15 and 18?


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I know posting on this thread is heavy necromancing, but i had the same doubt and found the following item on Ultimate Equipment:

Ruff, Mummer’s

Usually fashioned from brightly colored silk, a mummer’s ruff is a favored accoutrement of performers and con artists alike. The wearer of a mummer’s ruff gains a +10 bonus on Bluff skill checks when attempting to imitate another’s voice. In addition, once per day, the wearer of the mummer’s ruff can throw his voice as if using ventriloquism for up to 5 minutes.

So there seems to be a precedent for using Bluff on imitating voices.

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MAD: Multiple Ability Dependency. It is related to classes that need high scores on several attributes in order to be effective (Monk, for example, need a good mix of CON, WIS and STR/DEX to survive at melee). It's opposed to SAD (Single Ability Dependency), in which you only need one high attribute to be effective (like the Wizard, you only need to boost your INT).

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"Zhukovia", our party are the nobles of House Zhukov (a fictional minor house of Brevoy) so there comes the name. The first city was founded at the Stag's Lord fort and is called "Stagfall". To continue with the tradition, Varnhold was renamed "Vordafall" (to our GM's dismay).

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Our party just got in a fight with the Spirit Naga on Blood for Blood, after she failed to charm our group. The first turn we saw it was going to be a tough one, due to the Naga's high AC (we only could hit her with +15 on the die) and spell repertoire....untill the party Druid decides to cast a baleful polymorph spell on her. The Naga fails it Fortitude and Will saves (DC 23) and shrinks into this:

PD: Our DM was so confused for the combat outcome that he decided to end the session, amidst laughs and plans for our new fluffy party member.

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Best spreadsheet ever, it would be very hard to track all changes to big kingdoms without it, congratulations!

Just a suggerence: Some labels on on the different types of goverment to let know what bonuses they give would be quite nice!

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"Your sneak attack damage is maximized when used against a creature that is totally unaware of your presence. You can use a maximized sneak attack in this manner only once on any particular creature; thereafter, it will be wary of such a trick from you (even when surprised)"

Question: Is the creature forever wary of the maximized sneak attack, even if he/she survives the encounter and face the same enemy a year later (to put a date). What about a maximized sneak from another creature?

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I'm gonna start with Stolen Lands the next week, and the party i'll run consists of:

Paladin (Erastil)
Cleric (Erastil)
Inquisitor (Erastil)

I'm having some issues to make diferences on how each class would approach it's worship to the "old deadeye", so every player can roleplay something different. Any suggestions?


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Comprehend Languages & Tongues (you either know the language or not)
Endure Elements (to avoid immunity to weather/environment rules, which i use a lot)
True Resurrection (not a big fan of resurrection in my games, but at least the corpse has to exsist).
Create Food and Water: Use survival, professions or anything else to create food (magic items that provides free food are scarce)

Leadership (You get followers/cohort by roleplaying, and the party cannot take more than 1 cohort with them at any time).

Not banned but modified:
Teleport casting time is changed to 1 minute and it's used more as a 'ritual' to travel somewhere rather than disappearing mid-combat.

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I don't think shields would be obsolete, they are unique in the way they have their own feats/enchantments (and are far more usefull at defense that a weapon). Plus, going into the TWF way still requires some feat-tax/score tax that balances this (DEX it's still a requisite on our table), it's a little less punishing and attractive combat style but definitely not free.

I liked your suggestions for one-handed fighting, perhaps the +1 to attack and dodge could increase as your BAB does? (+1 each 5 BAB?) to give a little bit more edge at higher levels?

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I have been playing with a Rogue with your TWF variant (the part that with a Standard action you may attack with your both hands, but still have to use a Full-Attack for any extra attacks) for several months in the Kingmaker AP. It has worked really well and i'm able to do the same damage as my fellow Fighter/Barbarian buddies (sometimes even a little bit more, with luck on the SA dices) but still i have to manage to flank or get the enemy denied it's DEX Bonus, so it takes some work.

We also have the house-rule that if you take Two Weapon Fighting feat, you also get it's matching Two Weapon Defense feat (Improved Two Weapon Fighting = Improved Two Weapon Defense from 3.5 and so on).


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Intelligence for extra Spell Slots & Spell Known.
Wisdom as the 'to-hit' stat for ranged spell attacks (instead of Dex).
Charisma as the stat for spell's DC.

I think this would be a nice setup for this class (mainly because DEX is already a superb stat).

Regarding the revision, i think the Counterspell exploit is a great one...but should be more costly (2 reservoir points instead of one at the least and expending one spell slot higher or two spell slots of the same level of the spell casted). Otherwise, give access this mechanic to all spellcasters to be fair, since the standard 'ready an action to counterspell' is quite clumsy and never like it from the 3.0/3.5 era.

Looking good so far, keep up the good work!

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Ravingdork wrote:
Here's a good sample of what can be done with a high charisma oracle necromancer.

This could be a HELL of a villian for Mythic i love how the character sheet is well written and detailed. I'd have to check of the magic items and undead creatures though, never played with a necromancer before.

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Rule question Jason: The 'movement' stat is mentioned a lot on the supplement, but i'm unable to find any base movement stat for armies (wether they are human soldiers, or any other race...specially if dwarves are never reduced their speed with medium/heavy armor). Also, the mounts resource movement is listed as 'as mount / as mount -1'...any idea where i should look for this data?


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This is really quite good, congratulations to Legendary Games folks for this add-on!

Something i was hopping was for an extended/detailed army list (with their stat blocks) like the one at Ultimate Campaign (but with the Ultimate Battle rules). Will it be present at the Ultimate War suplement?


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Just a heads up: I'm getting an error while trying to access your dropbox links =( (page not found)

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What happens if i have a building that gives me a magic item slot but my Base Value is not high enough to generate one? For example, in KM we have filled a district on our first city and the last 4 ones were for building a Waterfront. This has gave us a Base Value for a total of 6500 and 1 Major Wondrous Item. Except that the most cheap Major Item to get is a pair of Dimensional Shackles ( , which are worth 28000 gp...way over our value and even the top 16000 limit for a Metropolis.

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Great! Just another comment: Could you incorporate the "Reserve Army" alternate rule (Ultimate Campaign) on the Army tab? Currently you are either paying the full 4 weeks, or none if army is not active. The third way is to garrison the army into a military building, and you will only pay it's consumption once per month, instead of once per week (A Yes/No/Reserve button list could do it, for example).

I see a note saying "Press F9 to update any calculations or generate a random Event". With F9 i'm only currently updating calculations, how do i exactly generate random Events? Should i press F9 in a particular tab?

Overall, great work indeed! I'm already using these for my KM Campaign =)

PD: Sawmill/w resource is incorrectly listing "Stability +1, Income +1" while it should be "Stability +2, Income +2" (although bonuses are correctly calculated, only the description is incorrect)

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I have created a "Large" Army of Fighters with ranged support. This should be listed as Consumption 5 (Army Consumption 1 + 4 Ranged Support for a Large Army). But consumption is automatically listed as 1 on the Army tab, and in the Overall is listed as 4. Also Moral is set by default on "0", is there a way to modify it?


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(I'm having a hard time to quote your post, so apologies in advance if my reply seems kinda messy)

First of all, one thing clear: I'm NOT stating rogues in Pathfinder are a weak class or underpowered. My original intention was to provide my insight having played one for 9-10 levels, mainly using the Core manual. What i AM trying to state is that in no way they are an overpowered class, at all. Can they put some hard pain on NPCs from time to time? Sure! Can they take over whole combats by themselves? No way, at least in my experience.

"...the majority of every classes damage can be said to be situational". Sure, either you are rolling a melee/ranged attack, chance will always determine wether you are a succesfull combatant or not. What we can argue though, is that some classes are better prepared to face those "odds of chance" so even if you get a low dice roll, you will succedd. What i tried to state in my previous post, was that a Good BAB class like Barbarian or Fighter, will reach a point where his attack bonus get's so high (either by Fighter's Weapon Training or Barbarian's Rage, plus other dozens of bonus) that they can confidently sacrifice it in order to get more damage (power attack) and provide a consistent damage output.

"...uncanny dodge doesn't make you immune to sneak attack. It makes you immune to being flat-footed...and not against a rogue 4 levels higher than you"

A little correction here: Uncanny Dodge prevents you from being flat-footed. Period. It does not matter if the attacker is an invisible 20 lvl Rogue, he simply cannot catch you flat-footed UNLESS he is flanking you or feinting you. The 4 level diference applies strictly to improved uncanny dodge, whitch prevents flanking.

"...All that being said, an average 9th level rogue, dual wielding can do 20d6 + 4d8 + (weapon bonus*4) + (stat and other damage bonuses * 4) in a single round of combat... just by flanking that opponent with a buddy"

Really? A Rogue is ALWAYS going to make those three attacks? At -2/-2/-7 to hit? (assuming you are using a light weapon on your off hand). My current rogue has a +13 chance to hit on level 9 (4 dex + 1 weapon +1 focus +7 BAB), and a +11/+11 for TWF. That's +11/+11/+6 assuming you are using a Full Round to attack. Let's put a flanking partner on the other side, and for some miracle the enemy hasn't moved or used a 5' step on a non-flanking position: That's a +13/+13/+8 chance to hit. I can assure you after 5-6 sessions of intense combat: Scoring those three is almost impossible, two hits at best. Thats 10D6 extra damage on the SITUATIONAL chance you are flanking or getting the enemy flat-footed for all your attacks (improved invisibility, maybe?). It's good damage, but it's not RELIABLE damage.

And making this point again: Rogues tend to have lower AC/HP that other primary combat classes (no shield, no heavy armor), so beleive me, standing around the bad guy all the time in order to find a flanking position is not healthy for the PC's survival.

..."How are rogues weak again? No other class can put out the potential, sustained damage a rogue can. That's not even using anything unusual, just average every day vanilla core class rogue. With the right feats and alternate advancement paths, that goes up a lot"

Create a 19 lvl Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger with the appropiate gear for their lvl and some basic feats: They are going to do TONS of damage, all the time and flanking-flatfooted is something nice, not something you NEED. Even if they do not crit, their damage output is not going to be reduced for these factors.
I'm am not going even to bring what can spellcasters do at that level.

And if you check your examples for the Rogue, you will see that he is ALWAYS using Two Weapon Fighting. So either he ignores that feat and reduces his combat efectiveness, or risk his neck for trying to make a full attack with TWF against every single mob to be usefull. Again, providing the target is NOT immune to SA (or impeding your SA in other way), is flat-footed/flanked (flank someone against a wall? someone flying?) AND you get a good dice to strike his AC with your 3/4 BAB and TWF penalties.

Sneak Attack is nice, but it's not broken. You have to work your ass to make it happen, and that's good. What mainly bother's me is the immunity to it: It's frustrating for the player (3.5 was worse) and there's little thing you can do on those situations.
would rather like to have something like "The target reduces your precision dice pool on half, rounded down" instead of an immunity. In that way, you are reduced on your combat abilities, not just ignored.

Again, not trying to "cry a river" for you, just making my input on some real problems for a class that could offer so much more to the game that the one currently propossed.



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Zanathos wrote:
Kord_Avatar wrote:

Finally, woe on the poor Rogue that crosses an Elemental/Ooze/Swarm...those things have "I HATE YOUR CLASS" on their (non exsisting) faces due their immunities.
To be fair, those things hate everyone equally... especially the swarms. Also, it requires a number of feats and a successful bluff check, but there are ways to be able to get a sneak attack every single round in melee. Even to get you full round action of attacks every melee without worrying about flanking/flatfooted. You'll probably be 7th or 8th level before you have full access to it in Pathfinder, but it IS possible... it will require most of your feats to get there, but it turns a rogue into a pretty nasty combat monster.

Sure, but while Fighter & Barbarian buddies can still smack those immunities with raw damage (power attack, high str scores), Rogue will look at his 1D6+2 shortsword damage and cry on a corner.

Yes, i'm aware that with a certain combination of feat/spells you MAY turn a rogue into an awesome damage machine...but remember: It's a SITUATIONAL awesome damage machine, is negated by a low level class feature (Uncanny Dodge), spells (anything that gives the enemy concealment, reveals your invisibility, etc), magic items (fortification)...and that's asuming you are ABLE to hit with your 3/4 BAB in the first place!

Talents are great in the sense that they let you do some interesting stuff in combat (bleed the enemy, penalize him, negate his AoO etc) and give the character somemething unique instead of "hitting the bad guy's hitpoins". Still, most of them require a sneak attack to be activated and suffer the same limitations mentioned above.
Not-Combat talents are kinda 'meh', though some of them might be usefull on a particular game.

The fun and joy of playing a Rogue is playing the character that has that particular skill, item or tactic that the rest of the party has neglected (possibily turning the tables in that combat or give a new direction on how to deal with a problem). That's his place to shine.

That is, untill pure casters start to do everything without blinking. But that's not the discussion here :P

Dark Archive

If the question is: Are Rogues overpowered at combat? (meaning, are they able to outshine other classes on combat?) Then my answer is a negative one.

Even in PF when the Rogue can sneak-attack more types of creatures than 3.5 (BIG help), they are still limited by the flat-footed-flanking requisite to do so. A rogue has either to invest feats-gear in great initiative bonus to make sure he'll go first and have a great start on fights OR spend time positioning himself on the battlefield to gain the advantage of flanking. That movement is translated in less damage for the Rogue AND improves his chance to be smacked on the face due being an D8 hit dice class.

Right now, i'm playing a KM campaign with a Human Rogue. We have a Barbarian, Fighter and Summoner in the party. The only reason i'm able to (sometimes) reach their power-smacking level is because we are using a HR version of Two Weapon Fighting (use a standard action to make an attack with your main and offhand. You still need to use a Full Round for iterative attacks from BAB/Haste/Imp TWF etc) meaning more sneaks and more damage. And i still need to make some risky acrobatic checks just to position myself to do so, when the animal-totem barbarian can just roam freely and full attack everything that he sees.

Ranged combat? Sure, on round 1 or surprise. Then it's quite a pain in the ass to get the requisites (a large chain feat or get party members to get them).

Finally, woe on the poor Rogue that crosses an Elemental/Ooze/Swarm...those things have "I HATE YOUR CLASS" on their (non exsisting) faces due their immunities.

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