How to tell your players about a secret door that doesn't open like a secret door

[Mark Hoover 330]

Sorry for the long title. I'm looking for advice/suggestions how I could've handled the following situation better:

There is a statue in a dungeon which obscures a passage to another area. The way to activate the opening of this portal is to bring something and present it to said statue. It isn't something where an item needs to be given to the statue so I couldn't say "it has hands as if waiting to grasp something" or something like that.

Anyway, the players randomly encountered the statue today. They specifically searched around the statue for secret doors and rolled exceptionally high, plus they cast Detect Magic on the statue. They got the sense there was some kind of passage there, but there's no lever or any trigger to open it.

We ended up spending a solid 20 minutes on it. Finally, since this statue was related to ancients that first built this dungeon and one player has purposely stated over the past 3 levels he's used Downtime to learn the ancients' language and culture, I just had him make a Knowledge check and made up some BS about how the statue looks like ones that ancient heroes had to make some kind of demonstration before in order to gain secret knowledge or access.

Am I explaining things well enough for folks to advise me on other ways I could have revealed this was a secret door, even though it's not really a traditional secret door but a puzzle? Also, just so everyone's aware, I didn't break the cardinal sin: the statue puzzle is extra, not something the PCs HAVE to complete in order to progress in the dungeon and plot.

[Warped Savant]

Depending on how it mechanically opens, you might be able to give them clues with that.
Scrape marks along the floor from years long past, a seam that indicates it opens / can be moved, something like that.
(But I like what you did with the knowledge for the player that's been studying the culture. It rewards the player for being involved with the story.)

Once they know it's a secret door, it's up to the players to figure out how they want to open it:
Because you shouldn't count on the players thinking to present the statue with something, allow the rogue to "pick the lock," / disable device on it, or use magic device.

The caster can inspect the aura and figure out what's required to open it.

They could smash it to get it open.

[Hugo Rune]

I think you are thinking about it wrong because of game terminology.

You don't have a secret door. What you have is a puzzle, solving it happens to open a door.

You need to scatter clues (rule of 3 again) to enable players to solve the puzzle. Also 'alternative solutions' like those suggested by Warped Savant should be considered.

[Pizza Lord]

I agree with Hugo Rune. If the secret door doesn't have a latch, switch, lever, or lock that can be manipulated, then don't allow that to happen. It's a puzzle, the PCs need to figure it out. As long as you've put a way to figure it out, then you're fine.

Whether that be a mural somewhere depicting a ritual scene with a statue similar to this one, knowledge from a Knowledge check that, if it doesn't spell out exactly what's needed, at least hint towards something (which is what you did), or even a scholar back in town they can pay and spend some time waiting while he or she researches it.

[ErichAD]

It sounds like it opens like a trap. There's some sort of sensor looking at the area near the statue that's looking for a specific object, when the sensor detects the object, the trigger to open the door is activated and it opens.

I'd tell my players about a door like this through the trigger method like I would for a trap. Normally they'd find a button, trip wire, pressure plate, or what have you, this time it's a specialized object detection spell.

[TxSam88]

Regardless of the "secret door mechanism" disable device should be able to negate it. that's the whole point of the skill. how that disabling is done flavor wise can be roleplayed in game, but a successful skill check should be enough.

If you want it to be a puzzle, that's fine, but be sure to include a way to defeat the puzzle by rolling dice (a skill check).

Puzzles challenge the player, things in game should be challenging the character and those successes are done via dice rolls. you would not expect a player to pick up a barbell to prove his character could lift a gate, it's the same with mental puzzles.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Hugo Rune wrote:

I think you are thinking about it wrong because of game terminology.

You don't have a secret door. What you have is a puzzle, solving it happens to open a door.

You need to scatter clues (rule of 3 again) to enable players to solve the puzzle. Also 'alternative solutions' like those suggested by Warped Savant should be considered.

You're right of course HR Puff N Tough; I'm not using the right terminology. I appreciate your clarifying what I was getting at!

I think I just realized, in the moment that the players discovered the statue puzzle that I should've done a better job at GMing up to that point. I followed the pre-written details of the dungeon from a module and it JUST SO happened that the players managed to get to the actual puzzle BEFORE they found the clues that would help them understand it WAS a puzzle.

Then, since it was a piece of dungeon dressing called out in the block text of the chamber I described it and the players had their characters examine the statue SUPER closely. So now I'm sitting there, trying to tap dance around a way to explain to the players they'd found a puzzle without outright saying "You can roll a Perception check but it's not a trap or a secret door... its a puzzle."

In the end, since SOLVING the puzzle opens a door and there's spells on it that makes it hard to brute force through, I ended up revealing to the rogue that there's very faint airflow, as if there should be some kind of opening here, and when the wizard did a Detect Magic I also had him roll that Knowledge check I mentioned above.

[Ryze Kuja]

Tbh, I think the best way for a DM to "help" the PC's solve the encounter is to have clues. You put your Statue in the middle of the dungeon, but there needs to be clues strewn about the dungeon, and this can range from Knowledge Checks, pictographs/hieroglyphics, or possibly from other adventurers who got stuck like the PC's but they took notes on how to open it before they died.

So clue number 1 could be that the PC's find another adventuring party that has been dead for several years, but their gear is mostly pilfered by now. One of these guys has a journal where he scrawled "we figured out how to get the door open by giving it a...." and the page is ripped right when it would give the answer. This tells the PC's they have to give a GIFT of some kind to the statue, but not what it is. Clue #2 could be the Ancestral Knowledge Check from the PC who had been studying these Ancient Heroes-- maybe these Ancestors like Incense, or Star-shaped religious objects, or maybe they're particularly fond of Shrubberies with a little two-layed effect and a path running down the middle, etc. Clue #3 could be pictographs, hieroglyphics, or tapestries depicting the commonfolk presenting gifts/sacrifices to the ancient heroes, and maybe there's an actual ritualistic preparation involved with the "giving of the item" to this statue-- maybe you can't just give the statue the item, but there's a specific ritual that must also be performed while giving the gift.

Anywho, I'm fond of using puzzles and riddles in my games, and I've found that the more descriptive you can be, the better, even if being so descriptive gives away the answer a little bit. The PC's have to know exactly what they're looking at in order to figure it out, otherwise you can expect that they either 1) don't see what they're supposed to see to figure it out, or 2) they overthink the crap out of it and get frustrated.

[Pizza Lord]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Anywho, I'm fond of using puzzles and riddles in my games, and I've found that the more descriptive you can be, the better, even if being so descriptive gives away the answer a little bit. The PC's have to know exactly what they're looking at in order to figure it out, otherwise you can expect that they either 1) don't see what they're supposed to see to figure it out, or 2) they overthink the crap out of it and get frustrated.

Had a similar situation arise in game once. I was playing with coded messages that the players had to decode, using a cipher they had to find in order to get the 'code phrase' to speak to a contact. Obviously there were other ways to get the information they sought (as well as, possibly charming the NPC, or roleplaying further attempts to show they were part of the 'resistance' through taking additional time and making skill checks.

However, some of the players liked codework and decoded the message enough to realize that the contact was the kingdom's princess, and that the the code phrase was to ask to 'kiss her kneecaps'. Well... (this is entirely on them, because I made sure afterwards that the code and letters were correct, they just got careless and started guessing at stuff), but somehow, one of them got the idea that the phrase was 'kill her kneecaps', just completely getting the letter-code wrong.

So they're meeting the princess, I'm RPing in my horrible, not in anyway actually feminine-sounding, regal RP voice, when the one player goes into his RP with something like:
PC: "I'd kneel, your highness, but that just kills my kneecaps."
Princess responds in a perfectly normal way to this statement about being comfortable and excusing the character (but I have no idea that the PC is trying to give the code phrase, because they said nothing about it and I, naturally, was waiting for a completely different phrase).
But after being excused for the informality by the princess, the PC just gave that sideways nod to me and:
PC: "...just...killlllls my kneecaps." [nod]... [nod]
Princess: "Of course... think nothing of it, as I said... Now again... why are you here?"
PC: "... just... wanted to say that my kneecaps...[points]... are killing me. Are your kneecaps... killing you?"
Me (still completely unaware that player has messed up and thinking someone started drinking during the last break);
Princess: Perhaps you should see our cleric, good sir.
PC: "Is there... another princess here...?"

Finally, I had to ask him what the hell he was talking about (and then pause to grab back the code sheet and cipher and make sure I hadn't goofed; I. HAD. NOT!) before telling him that maybe he got the code phrase wrong.

[TxSam88]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Anywho, I'm fond of using puzzles and riddles in my games, and I've found that the more descriptive you can be, the better, even if being so descriptive gives away the answer a little bit. The PC's have to know exactly what they're looking at in order to figure it out, otherwise you can expect that they either 1) don't see what they're supposed to see to figure it out, or 2) they overthink the crap out of it and get frustrated.

Had a similar situation arise in game once. I was playing with coded messages that the players had to decode, using a cipher they had to find in order to get the 'code phrase' to speak to a contact. Obviously there were other ways to get the information they sought (as well as, possibly charming the NPC, or roleplaying further attempts to show they were part of the 'resistance' through taking additional time and making skill checks.

However, some of the players liked codework and decoded the message enough to realize that the contact was the kingdom's princess, and that the the code phrase was to ask to 'kiss her kneecaps'. Well... (this is entirely on them, because I made sure afterwards that the code and letters were correct, they just got careless and started guessing at stuff), but somehow, one of them got the idea that the phrase was 'kill her kneecaps', just completely getting the letter-code wrong.

So they're meeting the princess, I'm RPing in my horrible, not in anyway actually feminine-sounding, regal RP voice, when the one player goes into his RP with something like:
PC: "I'd kneel, your highness, but that just kills my kneecaps."
Princess responds in a perfectly normal way to this statement about being comfortable and excusing the character (but I have no idea that the PC is trying to give the code phrase, because they said nothing about it and I, naturally, was waiting for a completely different phrase).
But after being excused for the informality by the princess, the PC just gave that sideways nod to me...

Perfect example of why this should be a Characters skill check, not a players skill check.

[UnArcaneElection]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Tbh, I think the best way for a DM to "help" the PC's solve the encounter is to have clues. You put your Statue in the middle of the dungeon, but there needs to be clues strewn about the dungeon, {. . .}

So clue number 1 could be that the PC's find another adventuring party that has been dead for several years, but their gear is mostly pilfered by now. One of these guys has a journal where he scrawled "we figured out how to get the door open by giving it a...." and the page is ripped right when it would give the answer. This tells the PC's they have to give a GIFT of some kind to the statue, but not what it is. {. . .} Clue #3 could be pictographs, hieroglyphics, or tapestries depicting the commonfolk presenting gifts/sacrifices to the ancient heroes, and maybe there's an actual ritualistic preparation involved with the "giving of the item" to this statue-- maybe you can't just give the statue the item, but there's a specific ritual that must also be performed while giving the gift.
{. . .}

This sounds like part of my job recently, trying to install software with instructions that are missing, incomplete, and sometimes contradictory to each other.

Pizza Lord wrote:

{. . .}

However, some of the players liked codework and decoded the message enough to realize that the contact was the kingdom's princess, and that the the code phrase was to ask to 'kiss her kneecaps'. Well... (this is entirely on them, because I made sure afterwards that the code and letters were correct, they just got careless and started guessing at stuff), but somehow, one of them got the idea that the phrase was 'kill her kneecaps', just completely getting the letter-code wrong.

So they're meeting the princess, I'm RPing in my horrible, not in anyway actually feminine-sounding, regal RP voice, when the one player goes into his RP with something like:
PC: "I'd kneel, your highness, but that just kills my kneecaps."
{. . .}

This needs to become a Monty Python skit.

[UnArcaneElection]

. . . Or a Far Side cartoon . . . .