trying to design a barbarian that works around biting and grappling his enemies. goblin is not an available race and was thinking skinwalker with the scaleheart transformation, it fits theatrically and combat tactics wise. I am starting out at level 1 with a 20 point system.
was wondering if there is any suggestion with this idea and input is welcome. I will have the stats of what I was thinking shortly.
Does the initial race of the skinwalker change the stats or racial abilities or is it just affecting the culture and how the skinwalker was raised?
Are the extra racial features like quick change or extra feature actually worth it?
clarification on how the initial racial ability modifies is applied would be very helpful?
"Ability Score Modifiers: Skinwalkers are well attuned to the natural order of things and value passion above reason. They gain +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence, and +2 to one physical ability score while shapechanged (1 RP). While in their bestial form, they gain a +2 racial bonus to either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution (see Change Shape). Skinwalkers of specific heritages (see below) gain different ability score modifiers, as indicated."
this is kind of confusing to me?
Skinwalker is a race, not a modifier to another race. The ability mods you've quoted are for the basic kind of skinwalker without a particular heritage like scaleheart. If you're a scaleheart or whatever then you replace the quoted part with the scaleheart or whatever modifiers.
Extra feature probably isn't worth the feat for a scaleheart skinwalker. Quick change is not worth it for you, and probably only worth it in edge cases - there's no time limit on how long you can walk around with croc jaws, only a social limit.
avr wrote: Skinwalker is a race, not a modifier to another race. The ability mods you've quoted are for the basic kind of skinwalker without a particular heritage like scaleheart. If you're a scaleheart or whatever then you replace the quoted part with the scaleheart or whatever modifiers.
Extra feature probably isn't worth the feat for a scaleheart skinwalker. Quick change is not worth it for you, and probably only worth it in edge cases - there's no time limit on how long you can walk around with croc jaws, only a social limit.
ok thankyou for the clarification. so then the only benefit of the "subrace" is the RP, which is perfectly fine.
for grappling and bite damage do you think it is worth dipping into brawler for 2 levels to get the benefits for grappling?
Brawler 2 gives a flurry which takes a full-round action which is generally incompatible with maintaining a grapple. And a bonus combat feat, nice but not worth a 2-level dip. No, this is not a good idea for a grappler.
avr wrote: Brawler 2 gives a flurry which takes a full-round action which is generally incompatible with maintaining a grapple. And a bonus combat feat, nice but not worth a 2-level dip. No, this is not a good idea for a grappler. sorry I meant the brawler archetype strangler, which benefits grappling.
Strangle (Ex)
At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th and 15th levels.
This ability replaces unarmed strike and brawler’s flurry.
Practiced Strangler (Ex)
At 2nd level, when a strangler has the grappled condition, she does not take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and does not lose her Dexterity bonus to AC. At 9th level, a grappling or grappled strangler still threatens an area and is still able to make attacks of opportunity while grappling or grappled; when pinned, she is not denied her Dexterity bonus and does not take a –4 penalty to Armor Class.
This ability replaces AC bonus.
this would add on some extra damage and not take away my dex bonus during grappling.
I will note that the scaleheart subrace replaces the generic skinwalker ability bonuses. Your character will get +2 Con & -2 Wis, with a further +2 Str when bestial formed.
yes I do understand that loss of wisdom, but that is something I am willing to take because I probably won't change unless I am raging.
I also got clearance from my DM that I can take the feral gnasher archetype with the scaleheart or seascarred skinwalker race. I also increased the bite damage from 1d6 to 1d8.
20 point by:
normal--
stats:
str: 15
dex: 14
con: 15
int: 10
wis: 13
cha: 8
raging--
str: 19
dex: 14
con: 19
int: 10
wis: 13
cha: 8
shapechanged and raging--
str: 21
dex: 14
con: 21
int: 10
wis: 11
cha: 8
No, I don't think you've got your stats right
Your point buy:
str: 15 (7 pts)
dex: 14 (5 pts)
con: 15 (7 pts)
int: 10 (0 pts)
wis: 13 (3 pts)
cha: 8 (-2 pts)
20 pts.
Racial adjustments make this
str: 15
dex: 14
con: 17
int: 10
wis: 11
cha: 8
All the time.
When you take Bestial form (likely most of your adventuring time), STR becomes 17.
You rage on top of that for Str 21 and Con 21...
The strangler dip could be worth it.
Don't forget to get raging vitality some time, which will push your raging con up to 23.
I could not find the raging vitality rage power.
Would you recommend any dip in tetori monk for the OP grappling ability?
I honestly don't want to take the dip because I feel like it takes away from the RP of the race and werecrocodile connection.
the rage powers I was looking at were:
animal fury
bloody bite
ghost rager
greater animal fury
hive totem
hive totem resilience
hive totem toxicity
penetrating bite
maybe:
breathtaker
superstition
raging grappler ( i think i get this from feral gnasher)
I still need to work on the feats.
Raging vitality is a feat.
Tetori monk is amazing as a single class, nothing special as a dip. And then there's the alignment problem. I wouldn't recommend such a dip.
Hive totem is possibly useful But it doesn't obviously match on flavour? Tyrant totem would also be useful and is a better flavour match for you IMO.
avr wrote: Raging vitality is a feat.
Tetori monk is amazing as a single class, nothing special as a dip. And then there's the alignment problem. I wouldn't recommend such a dip.
Hive totem is possibly useful But it doesn't obviously match on flavour? Tyrant totem would also be useful and is a better flavour match for you IMO.
Ok I found it thankyou. You are correct in the long run hive totem is not useful at all nor does it fit the flavour of my character.
I will look into the tyrant totem, however, the flaw I see is that I will never use swallow whole.
But I might also look into beast totem to get a claw attack and have some alternative attack abilities.
are there any good traits to look into for this character that would be helpful?
These are your best 3 options for Traits, imo:
Religion Serpentine Squeeze You gain a +1 trait bonus on combat maneuver checks to grapple a foe, as well as a +1 trait bonus to your CMD whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
Combat Ogre Avoidance You gain a +2 trait bonus to CMD against bull rush and grapple combat maneuvers.
You could take Adopted, and then take this Human Race Trait:
Race Bred for War You gain a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks and a +1 trait bonus on your CMB because of your great size. You must be at least 6 feet tall.
======================================
Tbh, I think Serpentine Squeeze is probably the best bang for your buck. If you know that your DM favors using Bull Rush monsters/NPC's, Ogre
Avoidance might be worth it too. Having a +2 to CMD vs. Grapple is important because your victims will be making CMB and Escape Artist checks against your CMD to break free or to become the Controlling Grappler, so taking Ogre Avoidance instead of Serpentine Squeeze isn't a waste by any means.
Ryze Kuja wrote: These are your best 3 options for Traits, imo:
Religion Serpentine Squeeze You gain a +1 trait bonus on combat maneuver checks to grapple a foe, as well as a +1 trait bonus to your CMD whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
Combat Ogre Avoidance You gain a +2 trait bonus to CMD against bull rush and grapple combat maneuvers.
You could take Adopted, and then take this Human Race Trait:
Race Bred for War You gain a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks and a +1 trait bonus on your CMB because of your great size. You must be at least 6 feet tall.
======================================
Tbh, I think Serpentine Squeeze is probably the best bang for your buck. If you know that your DM favors using Bull Rush monsters/NPC's, Ogre
Avoidance might be worth it too. Having a +2 to CMD vs. Grapple is important because your victims will be making CMB and Escape Artist checks against your CMD to break free or to become the Controlling Grappler, so taking Ogre Avoidance instead of Serpentine Squeeze isn't a waste by any means.
thankyou for the input. My DM is running the rise of the runelords campaign. That and being able to counter my opponents ability to escape is good idea.
Thankyou for all the help everyone. So I think my final build will be a feral gnasher barbarian with a dip into deep diver ranger and strangler brawler. My race will be skinwalker with the subrace of scaleheart.
The deep diver ranger gives me deep dive feat for long breath, and proficiency in medium armor and with harpoon and net to help with grappling. Also with the combat style I can either go natural wpn or unarmed. This also fits thematically with my character's background.
The strangler brawler gives me an extra 2d6 dmg during grappling and no loss of dex while grappling.
The rest will be into barbarian to flush out the rest of the grappling and biting and killing.
the traits I will be taking is religion serpentine squeeze and adopted to get bred for war.
rage powers I am going to pursue is the beast totem path, animal fury, greater animal fury, penetrating bite, raging grappler, body bludgeon, increased DR, and swift foot. Maybe : bloody bite, renewed vigor, internal fortitude, intimidating glare, terrifying howl
The feats will be a mix of improved grapple, greater grapple, deathroll, raging vitality, feral combat training, wpn focus (?), rapid grappler, pinning rend, body shield, improved unarmed strike, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, rending claws, and multi-attack. Maybe: eldritch claws
with stats while raging and hybrid form of:
Str: 21
Dex: 13
Con: 21
Int: 10
Cha: 8
Wis: 13
thankyou again for all the help, advice and input is always welcome.
You're going pretty heavy into Grapple, and one of the best things you can do with Grapple is to Pin ---> Tie-Up a target. I would carry 2-3 ropes on you, and maybe even consider spending a few GP on picking up Thorned Manacles and/or Shackles of Compliance.
Serpentine squeeze is for Ydersius followers. Make sure your GM is OK with that, or on making it more general.
On the ropes Ryze mentions bloodvine rope is the toughest. Basically impossible to burst with a strength check.
I really don't plan on tying any one up, unless my party thinks it is necessary. that whole raging ill-tempered scale heart. would rather make a bloody mess.
would a 4 lvl dip into bloodrager archetype bloody-knuckled rowdy and use the bloodline abyssal. that would give me claws with magic attack and a size increase to large when raging.
then the rest of my level would be into barbarian even though fighter looks good for the feats that I will need, however, i need more from the rage powers and my archetypes abilities.
You could just be a bloodrager and take the primalist archetype for rage powers. It works out about the same, plus you get access to higher level class abilities.
avr wrote: You could just be a bloodrager and take the primalist archetype for rage powers. It works out about the same, plus you get access to higher level class abilities. I will keep that in mind for a future build, the campaign has started and I still want to pursue the feral gnasher build with grappling bite damage. Also the dip into the bloody-knuckled rowdy bloodrager gives me improved unarmed combat feat for free, with large size and claws.
Is the abyssal bloodline size increase at level 4 able to be used with enlarge person or righteous might?
Horas Ebonfeather wrote: Is the abyssal bloodline size increase at level 4 able to be used with enlarge person or righteous might? no. multiple things that alter size do not stack.
enlarge person wrote: Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Name Violation wrote: Horas Ebonfeather wrote: Is the abyssal bloodline size increase at level 4 able to be used with enlarge person or righteous might? no. multiple things that alter size do not stack.
enlarge person wrote: Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. ok thankyou because the wording was difficult to understand from the bloodline power.
Demonic Bulk (Su)
At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid.
so the demonic bulk is a magical effect? In that case dipping four level isn't worth it because I know righteous might is so much better then enlarge person.
Horas Ebonfeather wrote: Name Violation wrote: Horas Ebonfeather wrote: Is the abyssal bloodline size increase at level 4 able to be used with enlarge person or righteous might? no. multiple things that alter size do not stack.
enlarge person wrote: Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. ok thankyou because the wording was difficult to understand from the bloodline power.
Demonic Bulk (Su)
At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid.
so the demonic bulk is a magical effect? In that case dipping four level isn't worth it because I know righteous might is so much better then enlarge person. that SU means supernatural. supernatural = magic
also anything thats "as whatever" wont ever stack with "whatever"
As (spell) can never stack with (same spell), the same way 2 castings of enlarge person, shield, mage armor, bulls str, etc won't stack.
ok thankyou "name violation". I am trying to maximize damage with grappling while being a skinwalker scaleheart barbarian.
from the looks of it a dip into bloodrager won't help. while a dip into Vivisectionist for two levels to get sneak attack and the tumor familiar. A dip into unbreakable fighter for diehard and endurance, I believe those are prerequisites for another helpful feat. Than a single dip into duel cursed oracle for the reaver mystery and two curses.
then the rest makes sense to be feral gnasher barbarian.
unless anyone can think of why a 4 lvl dip into bloodrager will help, I just don't see it.
Does the rage power greater beast totem,
Benefit: While raging, the barbarian gains the pounce special ability, allowing her to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In addition, the damage from her claws increases to 1d8 (1d6 if Small) and the claws deal x 3 damage on a critical hit.
stack with the increase from the bloodrager bloodlines like abyssal, sphinx,
Claws (Su): At 1st level, you grow claws while bloodraging. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack, using your full base attack bonus. These attacks deal 1d6 points of damage each (1d4 if you are Small) plus your Strength modifier. At 4th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance. At 8th level, the damage increases to 1d8 points (1d6 if you are Small). At 12th level, these claws become flaming weapons, which deal an additional 1d6 points of fire damage on a hit.
Therefore, with having 1d8 claws from greater beast totem, will the claws increase in size again when you get to 8th lvl abyssal bloodrager?
That should work. Claws at d10 while large, or 2d6 with improved natural attack feat and enlarged
Is there a way to get pounce, grab, or constrict without using barbarian rage powers?
Also with the mutation warrior, I still need to meet the Prerequisites for any of the discoveries that the class gets at 7th lvl?
I recommend sticking with one class for this concept. Brutal Pugilist barbarian is my first choice but being allowed Feral Gnasher would be much better. I've been working on a similar build using lizardfolk to be Killer Croc. Lizardfolk may actually be a better race but I'll leave that alone unless you're interested.
Bloodrager is also an excellent choice as many useful archetypes for this class stack. Primalist allows Rage Powers and Spelleater grants fast healing. You could have both of those archetypes along with that Demonic Bulk!
Fighter, more specifically, the Mutation Warrior is another tempting full BAB option. You trade all your Armor Training for Mutagen and alchemist discoveries, leaving you with ALL the weapon trainings and feats galore. That said, the Savage Warrior archetype stacks with Mutagen Warrior if you want to really focus on natural weapon attacks! I know there are some amazing rage powers for a grappling character and as awesome as a Fighter could be you may be unable to give them up, however, since you'll have ALL the feats you'll be able to Variant Multiclass (VMC) into Barbarian for some Rage and Rage Powers. You won't need much outside of Raging Grappler and Animal Fury but you can always take the Extra Rage Power feat for more once you unlock that class feature ;)
Claws... Multiple increases to damage won't stack unless they are different kinds of increases. There's "effective size increase" which would use wording such as "treated as if", then there's "damage die increase" (d6 to d8) and finally there's "actual size increase" which the weapon/attack is literally made larger. So Improved Natural Attack (effective) and the increase from Enlarge Person (actual) stack but Improved Natural Attack (effective) would not stack with the Strong Jaw (effective) spell.
To get claws you may qualify for the Aspect of the Beast feat since your GM seems pretty generous. Skinwalkers are, after all, related to lycanthropes. As mentioned in previous posts, the Beast Totem rage powers will grant claws and pounce later on... which is definitely a tasty option. Final idea to avoid Multiclassing for claws is Eldritch Heritage but I'd only burn feats on that if I was desperate.
All that said, claws may not even be the way to go. A magic weapon could be more useful in a situation where your bite attack or grappling ability is less effective.
Pounce, Grab and Constrict without rage powers...
Constrict can be acquired through a magic item, Anaconda's Coils.
Grab is tough outside of class features but I did find the Tentacle Cloak.
Pounce is also fairly difficult to obtain but I found the Tiger's Hide magic armor.
So far my DM is very kind in making things work for the rule of fun. My character so far is lvl 10 skinwalker.
My skinwalker usually runs in and bites to initiate the grapple, then the next either attacks with all natural attacks or pins the enemy all while being large size and raging. I have stopped many enemy casters from doing anything to my fellow party members.
I do know that in Rise of the Rune Lords, my grappler, natural attack tank will lose its effectiveness with casters having freedom of movement. I am still sticking with it though because it is just a lot of fun. Killing a colossal size fish by myself is a lot of fun.
I feel like these feats and the path I have taken so far fits killer croc or Leatherhead well.
Abyssal Bloodrager at lvl: 4
Style Shifter at lvl: 1
Medium at lvl: 1
Feral Gnasher at lvl: 4
Feats:
Dirty Fighting (Combat)
Extra Feature (General)
Eschew Materials (General)
Throw Anything (Combat)
Out Flank (General)
Kraken Style (General)
Improved Grapple (General)
Attack:
Bite: 1d8 dmg
Claws: 1d6 dmg
Tail: 1d6 dmg
My bite has the grab ability, and I have a +11 to grappling.
I am not sure if I want to take the rage power rapid grappler or the fiendish totem lesser. The reason I am pursuing the fiend totem for two steps is to work with the Hamatula hide armor.
Other feats I will be pursuing is deathroll, greater grapple, deadly grappler, body shield.
I will be taking two more lvls of feral gnasher for the prerequisites that I need for the fiend totem line to work great with the armor.
I am not sure if I want to go 4 lvls of bloodrager to increase claw dmg and get some resistances or go the rest fighter for all the feats.
Any suggestions is welcome.
Probably way too late here but I think Fighter over Bloodrager. There are So many useful feats to increase damage.
Greater Grapple
Rapid Grappler
Pinning Rend
Chokehold
Jaw Breaker
Bone Breaker
Neck Breaker
Improved Natural Attack: bite
Feral Combat Training: bite
Rage Powers;
Raging Grappler
Animal Fury
Barring all the Stunning Fist feats, the rage powers are grossly multiplied with Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler. Starting your turn next to an opponent would allow damage like this...
(Full attack action)Bite attack damage, grab, Raging Grappler bite damage, claw, claw, tail
[2 bites, 2 claws, tail, opponent is prone]
OR
(Standard action)Bite attack damage, grab, Raging Grappler damage, (Move, Greater Grapple) Animal Fury bite damage, maintain grapple bite damage, (Swift, Rapid Grappler) Animal Fury bite damage, maintain grapple bite damage.
[6 bites, opponent is prone]
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