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What do you call a follower of Calistria? A Calistrian?
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Raven Black,
Fair points re: gender equality in those nations for a majority of their histories, despite being less prudish (all those regions have sex temples). Though historically Japan had powerful women leaders before a movement ended that for a millennia. When I was there, I met a few dozen schoolchildren (I taught them) who'd expressed they wanted to move out of Japan. Only one of them was male.
I believe China had similar times, though yes, the majority of history and the majority of non-Abrahamic areas have had similar gender issues to those in Abrahamic areas.
I'm going to guess it's that because I see those beliefs stifling local discussion. I know dozens and have interacted with hundreds more personally affected by Abrahamic beliefs (and that's before getting into legislation and ostracizing.) So I have an eye to their worldwide impact too, despite other beliefs having had similar effects. My error.
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Darksol,
My mind had been on original, regional religions, art, and practices when I typed that, the older lore one might adapt into a fantasy RPG setting. So not current cultures, where I agree overt sexuality in religion has grown uncommon or even scarce outside of specific throwback moments (i.e. Japan's penis shrines & festivals or that sacred god-phallus/stone in India).
I'd attribute that lack to the dwindling of older religions themselves much like the lack of sun worship, mountain gods, or other concepts that were once revered (nearly) universally, but only have artifacts or token remnants remaining.
I agree chivalry should die, whether in original practice (which might shock modern pro-chivalry people), modern practice, or even its romanticized version.
And was I implying revering sexuality had been/would be a good thing?
I hope not since I regard sex as one of many facets of humanity, not to be raised to sacred, yet also not to be quashed.
I doubt there are any modern holy prostitutes, and think holy prostitution would simply be regular prostitution borrowing a religious veneer for self-justification (there being no actual Calistria or actual Earth sex deities.) Or as a scam to bypass laws. There was one religion in Southern California based around men implanting their sin via sperm into the priestess whose menstrual cycle ritually cleansed her. No, the police did not accept that belief justified the "donations". I have no idea how far that got in courts re: 1st amendment rights! (If free, but somehow tied to membership rather than per "cleansing", they might have had a stronger case.)
Yes, an oxymoron is in the eye of the...speaker? mouth? mind?
Subjective! That's the word.
Holy prostitution sounds a bit like an oxymoron* to me too when I think in modern, real world terms, yet not when thinking in terms of lore, myth, and RPGs.
* Or a scathing rebuke of a rival church! Or a scam that'd make one's eyes roll.
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This reminds me of a story I once read about a sect in medieval China which was a lot about having sex and that grew popular enough that the powers that were sent an army to deal with them. True to their beliefs, the sect's adherents had a great orgy on the night before the battle. On the morning they were wiped out by the well-rested soldiers.
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This reminds me of a story I once read about a sect in medieval China which was a lot about having sex and that grew popular enough that the powers that were sent an army to deal with them. True to their beliefs, the sect's adherents had a great orgy on the night before the battle. On the morning they were wiped out by the well-rested soldiers.
Hey, if you only have one night left to live and you're in a sex sect...
I mean, what would their chances have been anyway if rested?Plus, if sex is prayer to them, their standing firm (*cough cough*) is like Masada.
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The situation in India, Japan and China pretty clearly shows IMO that such problems as you mention are not specific to Abrahamic areas.
I wouldn't exactly say it is exactly one way or another. Many cultures go through periods where they are generally more conservative or liberal in sexual views over various decades.
The contrast can be very starkly seen in cultures covering a large area- when trends changed in Roman society, the outlying areas would take longer to catch up, since even sending out someone to check out the party scene in the capital might take months.
Which is why Pompeii was COVERED in graffiti and erotic art, even then contemporary Roman society was a bit more prudish.
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The situation in India, Japan and China pretty clearly shows IMO that such problems as you mention are not specific to Abrahamic areas.I wouldn't exactly say it is exactly one way or another. Many cultures go through periods where they are generally more conservative or liberal in sexual views over various decades.
The contrast can be very starkly seen in cultures covering a large area- when trends changed in Roman society, the outlying areas would take longer to catch up, since even sending out someone to check out the party scene in the capital might take months.
Which is why Pompeii was COVERED in graffiti and erotic art, even then contemporary Roman society was a bit more prudish.
I remember reading a history study that showed that, when society is prude, art is quite the opposite.
After all, the energy needs to go somewhere.
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Kinky
I mean mistress
I mean calistrian iirc is the official title
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...calistrian iirc is the official title
I'm pretty sure followers of Cayden Cailean are called "Caileanites." (Or was it Caydenites? lol.) Followers of Asmodeus are called "Asmodeuns" if I'm not mistaken. Followers of Gorum are "Gorumites" I believe.
So I guess the tradition is to add the suffix "ian," "ite," or if ending in an s, replace it with "un" to the end of a deity's name?
I'm not seeing much in the way of consistency in the few examples of follower naming convention we do have.
So...
...Desna = Desnian? Desnite?
...Eristule = Eristulinite? Eristulian?
...Iomedae = Iomedaen?
Or I could be totally mistaken and my memories of having seen these follower titles before are totally subconsciously fabricated.
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...calistrian iirc is the official titleI'm pretty sure followers of Cayden Cailean are called "Caileanites." (Or was it Caydenites? lol.) Followers of Asmodeus are called "Asmodeuns" if I'm not mistaken. Followers of Gorum are "Gorumites" I believe.
So I guess the tradition is to add the suffix "ian," "ite," or if ending in an s, replace it with "un" to the end of a deity's name?
I'm not seeing much in the way of consistency in the few examples of follower naming convention we do have.
So...
...Desna = Desnian? Desnite?
...Eristule = Eristulinite? Eristulian?
...Iomedae = Iomedaen?Or I could be totally mistaken and my memories of having seen these follower titles before are totally subconsciously fabricated.
Wiki says Desnan, Erastilian, Iomedaean.
So generally if it ends with an 'a' just add an 'n'. If it already had an 'n' at the end add an 'ite'. If the last 2 letters contain a 'u' or ends with 'i' subsitute a 'an' for those letters. Otherwise generally just add 'an' or 'ite' at the end based on what sounds nicer.
There are a bunch of exception like Rovagug just being Rovagug. Nethys adding an 'ian'. Torag adding a 'dan'. Norgorber uses 'ite'. Etc.
Nethysian and Norgorberite sound right. A Rovagug sounds like you're talking about the deity itself, and not a follower of said deity. A Rovagugan is probably the best I can come up with that doesn't sound extremely weird, but maybe there is better. (Rovagugite? Rovagugian?)
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Nethysian and Norgorberite sound right. A Rovagug sounds like you're talking about the deity itself, and not a follower of said deity. A Rovagugan is probably the best I can come up with that doesn't sound extremely weird, but maybe there is better. (Rovagugite? Rovagugian?)
A follower of Rovagog would probably just be called a "Destroyer." XD
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Chivalry...
I disagree to some points because many of the "negative" aspects of Chivalry were a result of classic romanticism and mis-applications of the original intentions. It wasn't the code, it was how some people used it and manipulated it for personal gain.
IMO, if we were to follow the ideals of what has been called Charlemagne's Code of Chivalry (the one around the 12th century IIRC) we would be better off.
Course I admit to being a little since I ignore the first perhaps most important tenet of the code (depending on your beliefs or who you ask) that being "fear god and serve the church."
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"To fear God and maintain His Church
To serve the liege lord in valor and faith
To protect the weak and defenseless
To give succor to widows and orphans
To refrain from the wanton giving of offense
To live by honor and for glory
To despise pecuniary reward
To fight for the welfare of all
To obey those placed in authority
To guard the honor of fellow knights
To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
To keep faith
At all times to speak the truth
To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
To respect the honor of women
Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
Never to turn the back upon a foe
Seems like universal rules that would be good for everyone
Note: Of the seventeen entries in the Code of Chivalry described in the Song of Roland, at least twelve of the codes relate to acts of chivalry as opposed to acts of combat.
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"To fear God and maintain His Church
To serve the liege lord in valor and faith
To protect the weak and defenseless
To give succor to widows and orphans
To refrain from the wanton giving of offense
To live by honor and for glory
To despise pecuniary reward
To fight for the welfare of all
To obey those placed in authority
To guard the honor of fellow knights
To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
To keep faith
At all times to speak the truth
To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
To respect the honor of women
Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
Never to turn the back upon a foeSeems like universal rules that would be good for everyone
Note: Of the seventeen entries in the Code of Chivalry described in the Song of Roland, at least twelve of the codes relate to acts of chivalry as opposed to acts of combat.
Disagree.
Each line has varying worth.To fear God and maintain His Church
-Hah. No. Hardly applicable in a pluralistic world with no obvious deities.
To serve the liege lord in valor and faith
-No. Valor is vague (and arguably has its worth tied to what one is valorous on behalf of) & faith implies the liege lacking accountability.
To protect the weak and defenseless
-Yay!
To give succor to widows and orphans
-Yay!
To refrain from the wanton giving of offense
-I only agree because of 'wanton' because sometimes offense is good.
To live by honor and for glory
-Dubious. Everybody has their own concept of these, often toxic.
To despise pecuniary reward
-(Had to look that up!) It's saying to despise monetary rewards? Despise seems a bit strong; undercuts capitalism without a substitute. And that's all of capitalism, even the concept of having a money system at all.
To fight for the welfare of all
-Yay!
To obey those placed in authority
-Authoritarianism writ large! No, not if they lack good principles.
To guard the honor of fellow knights
-Could mean words, but often meant blood, so dubious at best.
To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
-Yay!
To keep faith
-Faith in what and based on what? Empty words.
At all times to speak the truth
-Great baseline, but 'all times' means putting truth above other, better principles so needs rephrasing.
To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
-Hell NO! Sunk Cost Fallacy incarnate. This puts the perseverance and/or enterprise above other, better principles, even after evidence shows the two might be foolish, toxic, or misguided.
To respect the honor of women
-Good in theory, horrible historically. Honor killings use this thinking.
Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
-Whoa! No.
Never to turn the back upon a foe
-Practical, I guess?
So yeah, I rebuke many of those, others which sound good rely too much on one's interpretation or focus, some more are vague or culture-dependent anyway, yet I concur that maybe a handful are good to great. Those do reflect universal values. Comparable ethics can be found within nearly all moral systems. (Whether or not humanity succeeds at applying them in practice is a different question!)
Edit: Typo & clarity
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Well, I guess if you WANT to find exploits and loopholes so you can avoid the intent of the code, its easy to see that position. Its why I generally argue with people about LG cleric/paladins looking for ways to "get away" with certain actions that the PLAYER wants to do that an invested CHARACTER would not even consider. I tend to look at the Code with the intention by which it was created and therefore can only really argue with the first one given my atheism. If I was following the Code, I would expect that things like valor and honor would be largely defined for me. If the person defining the system is garbage then yeah, the Code is corrupted but that goes against the point of the code in the first place so it becomes self-fulfilling. YMMV
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Well, I guess if you WANT to find exploits and loopholes so you can avoid the intent of the code, its easy to see that position. Its why I generally argue with people about LG cleric/paladins looking for ways to "get away" with certain actions that the PLAYER wants to do that an invested CHARACTER would not even consider. I tend to look at the Code with the intention by which it was created and therefore can only really argue with the first one given my atheism. If I was following the Code, I would expect that things like valor and honor would be largely defined for me. If the person defining the system is garbage then yeah, the Code is corrupted but that goes against the point of the code in the first place so it becomes self-fulfilling. YMMV
That's an odd response given that earnest knights (et al) were the ones doing evil (by our standards) because of that code. Again, I acknowledge there are some good rules (a minority), but to me it seems the intent of the code is to enforce a social structure more. So maybe LN w/ a smattering of good, with the tragedy of LN sometimes being indifferent to evil in the name of order (hierarchy/authoritarianism).
I too am wary of players bypassing their alignment, but thankfully haven't had too many issues with that due to my tables focusing on remaining in character (except for mechanics or clarification and sometimes newbie aid).
Back to intent, I disagree there was a singular intent behind them by which to judge them all worthy. I think you're the one needing to find exploits and loopholes in order to bend the code to the intent you have bestowed it. (And your intent seems good, or so I hope.)
The code, as practiced by those who exalted it and likely had a hand in creating it, had been based on corrupt (IMO) versions of valor and honor. I'm sure some of the more reasonable were able to lie to save a knight's life, refuse a challenge to a duel because it was stupid, or disobey evil authority, but they were breaking the code. One might wiggle, but that code is full of absolutes, doesn't account well for misinterpretation or misapplication, and has no self-correcting mechanisms or guiding principles by which to reason.
If you put that code in the hands of an earnest person with no context, much of it would be useless or dangerous (shun wages??), except for the universal portions already pointed out of course.
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Chivalry...I disagree to some points because many of the "negative" aspects of Chivalry were a result of classic romanticism and mis-applications of the original intentions. It wasn't the code, it was how some people used it and manipulated it for personal gain.
IMO, if we were to follow the ideals of what has been called Charlemagne's Code of Chivalry (the one around the 12th century IIRC) we would be better off.
Course I admit to being a little since I ignore the first perhaps most important tenet of the code (depending on your beliefs or who you ask) that being "fear god and serve the church."
It is because of how easily corruptible it is, and how misconstrued it can be, that it hasn't really lasted past the period it was first introduced, and why people want it to die off already.
Then again, it basically has, since it isn't practically practiced anymore, and is really only mentioned as a meme in regards to ethical treatment of potential romantic interests.
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It creates a clash of ideals, all sparked from differing perspectives of wants/needs. Hence why I view it as an oxymoron (due to cultural disapproval of such a thing, though also a personal peeve of mine), whereas someone from another culture would view it as honorable, or even sacred.
If you are saying that there's no reason for a prostitute to cloak themselves in a veneer of holiness, then I agree much like Castilliano.
But I do hope you don't mean rather that there is something innately unholy about prostitution.
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But I do hope you don't mean rather that there is something innately unholy about prostitution.
Paizo has actually made an implicit statement on this issue with their deities, as they have deities of nearly every alignment who have prostitution in their portfolios. I do not recall seeing any evil deities that explicitly promote prostitution, but I suppose many of them do in the form of promoting slavery (and thus sex trafficking).
But whether or not consensual prostitution is okay or not seems to depend on the specific deity in question rather than alignment.
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It creates a clash of ideals, all sparked from differing perspectives of wants/needs. Hence why I view it as an oxymoron (due to cultural disapproval of such a thing, though also a personal peeve of mine), whereas someone from another culture would view it as honorable, or even sacred.If you are saying that there's no reason for a prostitute to cloak themselves in a veneer of holiness, then I agree much like Castilliano.
But I do hope you don't mean rather that there is something innately unholy about prostitution.
I am saying both, but not in the way you claim. Divinity doesn't have anything to do with my statement, meaning the concept of "holy" and "unholy" can be pitched right out of the gate, as my disagreement stems more from aligned morality than it does from whether it's "sacred" and "pure" or not.
Generally, those involved with prostitution, at least in today's society in the United States, aren't with honest or beneficial intentions. Or even if they are, that they are shallow by comparison to those who leave more fulfilling lives, and borderline predatory on those who cannot do so, either by societal pressures, genetics, etc. It becomes a crutch that they are aware of and take advantage of for their own selfish gains (which are monetary in nature, 99% of the time) that the other party can (and should) have from living normally, instead of being victims of bullying, abuse, or simple bad draw from what parents and genetic disabilities/mutations you're dealt with that make you completely unappealing to others.
In short, because of B, A becomes pointless by proxy, but there is an addendum to B.
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1. Golarion is not earth.
2. Golarion is not any earth country, even if there are similarities.
3. Golarion religions in the inner sea region are not like earth religions.
4. The other Golarion regions have religions based on seldom understood religions.So stop applying earth concepts to Golarion. Just because something is seen as bad in some parts of Earth does not mean its seen as bad in Golarion. Prostitution in Golarion is seen as fine by most people and religions. There probably are a handful of religions/countries that see it as bad because of their beliefs, but those are a minority.
Heck Desna, Shelyn, and Sarenrae are in a polyamorous relationship. Thats right 3 goddesses of good in the main pantheon are in a relationship.
Meanwhile, Calistria is courted by many gods. That's right, the goddess of lust, trickery, and vengeance is seen as good marriage material by many gods. Her trysts seen in many holy texts in addition to her own. So what is the point of debating if prostitution is holy/unholy?
* P.S. Not all temples of Calistria do protitution. She is a goddess of trickery/revenge afterall. But all her temples are B to S grade spy networks and some are even thief/assassin guilds.
Plenty of regions and cities in Golarion are analogous to our universe's Earth. James Jacobs has outright stated how certain regions are meant to exemplify X continent or Y country on Earth in terms of atmosphere and inspiration. To suggest parallels can't be drawn or that they haven't been drawn to evoke an aura that the area is meant to symbolize, is plainly false.
You keep seeming to think that this viewpoint is about some religious belief. It's not. Being Atheist, my qualms with prostitution are not based whatsoever on some religious beliefs or dogmas. They are based on personal morals and societal implications and consequences. To suggest religion, divinity, etc. has anything to do with whatever hang-ups I may have is, again, plainly false.
And Gorum, Achaekek, and Rovagug play cards together in their free time. You can take a guess which card game is their favorite. Regardless, I really don't see how deities who live by completely different standards than us should be considered role models for us to aspire to. I mean, maybe if we are meant to grow into those roles some day, but honestly it's such an unrealistic expectation given how important deities are, how relatively few there are, and how valuable it is to be one.
That makes no sense. Why would deities want to court one another when they already have all the power, wealth, and capacity they need? It'd be like Greek Mythology all over again, and we all know the negative implications behind that. I'd like to think the Golarion deities aren't as foolish or impetuous as the Greek Gods. Or maybe they are, and they are comparable to the Greek Gods in that respect, in which case, it just proves my first point.
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James Jacobs has outright stated how certain regions are meant to exemplify X continent or Y country on Earth in terms of atmosphere and inspiration."Fantasy area X is inspired Earth area Y, that's enough justification for me to squeeze in some bigotry, yay!" is certainly a take.
They are based on personal morals and societal implications and consequences.
Bad ones.
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That's an odd response given that earnest knights (et al) were the ones doing evil
Some, not most, and certainly not all. No different than any set of rules that involve people. Some will manipulate them for personal gain, but we tend not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
It is because of how easily corruptible it is
Well to be fair if that is the criteria then most laws should be repealed because there is an awful lot of manipulation going on even with our modern sensibilities. It just comes down to the difference between manipulating the RAW, vs following RAI. For example, "To respect the honor of women" did not mean all women are helpless and need a big strong man to save them even though narrative romanticism presented it that way. If you think that is what was intended, yeah, I agree, you should not be following the Code as you understand it.
Desna, Shelyn, and Sarenrae are in a polyamorous relationship
Personally I don't think the actions of deities necessarily equate to the actions of humanity (and the other sentient races of Golarion). With only a very few exceptions (Calistria, etc.) these types of topics have very little to do with religion in a world such as Golarion.
Bad ones
Just like much of your commentary
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Are the moderators on vacation? I have seem much less offensive commentary deleted from the message boards and I am amazed that a few of the comments up thread that are still there.
What the heck are you talking about? 🤔
Aside from a bit of off-topic discussion, I've seen absolutely nothing in this thread that strikes me as offensive and that doesn't already exist in current Paizo publications. 🤨
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If those aren't offensive than I have certainly become too overly sensitive to participate in these boards anymore
That's certainly your prerogative. In the meantime, I'd advise you to simply report it and move on. There's plenty of decent discussion being had here. No need to repeat the offending statements, thereby making them even more visible.
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...Or even if they are, that they are shallow by comparison to those who leave more fulfilling lives, and borderline predatory on those who cannot do so, either by societal pressures, genetics, etc...
...Why would deities want to court one another when they already have all the power, wealth, and capacity they need?...
What a very interesting perspective. What is this 'fulfilling life' you regard so strongly? Also, for clarity, the purpose of a romantic relationship is power, wealth, and capacity(?)?
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James Jacobs has outright stated how certain regions are meant to exemplify X continent or Y country on Earth in terms of atmosphere and inspiration."Fantasy area X is inspired Earth area Y, that's enough justification for me to squeeze in some bigotry, yay!" is certainly a take.They are based on personal morals and societal implications and consequences.Bad ones.
If facts are now bigotry, then it might explain why people are stupid (or rather, feign stupidity), in fear of being otherized by "superiors" like yourself.
I never said they were good ones, merely that they are personal. I don't expect others to understand them, or even accept them. In fact, that is more unrealistic an expectation than the personal morals I've set forth for myself on the subject matter.
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Really?!?
"What do you call a follower of Calistria?"
"...a call girl.""Their holes are actually quite pertinent, I'd think."
If those aren't offensive than I have certainly become too overly sensitive to participate in these boards anymore
I'd truly thought you'd been talking about the borderline insults and sensitive societal topics!
If the phrase "call girl" offends you (when, as above, it was not used to insult), then yes, that's you.
That's PG at most, and it wouldn't surprise me to see a nod & a wink reference in Spongebob or Pixar, (et al).
If a sexual, non-graphic pun offends you, then entering (and returning multiple times to) a discussion thread about Calistria would be unwise, yes. You are correct in that way, and that sensitivity is a you issue too, since that pun might barely scratch PG-13 levels as there's bolder innuendo or overt sexuality in many PG-13 movies, i.e. James Bond (all) or Scary Movie 3, 4, & 5.
Full disclosure, I wrote that one. It had been tongue-in-cheek. *shrug*
(For those from other cultures, PG & PG-13 are movie ratings for appropriateness, with kids being about to attend PG alone and 13+ able to attend PG-13 alone, though in both cases adults can buy the tickets and not accompany the minors.)
Paizo writes at a PG-13 level, and have said as much multiple times.
I'd expect the boards to have similar standards, barring insults, etc.
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Just realized Calistrian prostitutes could be Cal girls, (though yes, Cal women would be more accurate.)
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James Jacobs has outright stated how certain regions are meant to exemplify X continent or Y country on Earth in terms of atmosphere and inspiration."Fantasy area X is inspired Earth area Y, that's enough justification for me to squeeze in some bigotry, yay!" is certainly a take.They are based on personal morals and societal implications and consequences.Bad ones.
If facts are now bigotry, then it might explain why people are stupid (or rather, feign stupidity), in fear of being otherized by "superiors" like yourself.
I never said they were good ones, merely that they are personal. I don't expect others to understand them, or even accept them. In fact, that is more unrealistic an expectation than the personal morals I've set forth for myself on the subject matter.
What facts? You were bringing “c area is based on y country from Earth” as a justification for letting things in.
You called them morals, implying they were good or lofty.
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James Jacobs has outright stated how certain regions are meant to exemplify X continent or Y country on Earth in terms of atmosphere and inspiration."Fantasy area X is inspired Earth area Y, that's enough justification for me to squeeze in some bigotry, yay!" is certainly a take.They are based on personal morals and societal implications and consequences.Bad ones.
If facts are now bigotry, then it might explain why people are stupid (or rather, feign stupidity), in fear of being otherized by "superiors" like yourself.
I never said they were good ones, merely that they are personal. I don't expect others to understand them, or even accept them. In fact, that is more unrealistic an expectation than the personal morals I've set forth for myself on the subject matter.
What facts? You were bringing “c area is based on y country from Earth” as a justification for letting things in.
You called them morals, implying they were good or lofty.
James Jacobs' posts on inspirations for regions and settings have mentioned real world areas. This is fact, straight from the creative director themselves. Unless we want to say they are wrong, or got hacked. In which case, let the disingenuous arguments begin.
An implication taken out of context by personal desire to instigate conflict. Morals don't mean "good or lofty" except based on perspective perception. By definition, chivalry is a set of morals. And for numerous reasons, myself and many others disagree on their impact of whether it was "good."