One of my players just asked me the following question:
A question about the mastermind rogue racket ability: In combat, if I recall knowledge against an enemy, am I going to know that I succeeded by realizing the enemy is flat-footed to me?
My thinking thus far is as follows:
To my knowledge, there's nothing that indicates that you necessarily would be aware. After all, it remains a Secret check, and you don't normally know the AC of your target either (though I know many players like to make educated guesses after the first round), so I'm not sure you would necessarily even know if someone had the flat-footed condition. I can imagine some GM's describing foes as being off-balance, or having a momentary opening in their defenses to clue their players in. Unlike a parry or similar physical ability that creates an opening, it'd be kind of unintuitive to describe it that way in this case, when your character is basically just, well, thinking. In any case, it sure seems like it would be a lot of hassle to run it that way though. At present, I don't much like the idea of using it as a lie detector (it invalidates a number of other abilities). If the developers intended that, I think they would have been more clear and direct in their phrasing.
But I wanted to get some second opinions and advice on the matter before making an official ruling to my players.
|
For Mastermind, you recall knowledge to know what the weakness of an enemy is. If you recall on a Dire Wolf and crit fail, and the GM says it's just a normal wolf, your character would think something along the lines of "Okay it's just a wolf, they have a weak spot behind the ears that can cause additional damage" Then when they go to attack it, no weak spot exists because for Dire Wolfs it's actually somewhere else
So no, you wouldn't know the target is flat-footed to you. In fact, you would never know if they were until you make an attack.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I am joining this conversation as the player who asked the question and instead of trying to find a clean answer, I think I am likely just to complicate it more.
Mastermind is a very interesting and potentially powerful racket, especially for a rogue wanting to focus on ranged attacks, but there are multiple elements of the recall knowledge action that are not very well defined for the purposes of building a major class feat around and have to be discussed as a conversation between player and GM. I think the only reason there haven’t been more discussion about this in the boards is because there aren’t a lot of players running mastermind rogues.
The master mind ability says that if you successfully identify a creature with the recall knowledge action, it is flat footed to your attacks for 1 round, and for 1 minute on a crit.
“Identify a creature” never really appears as a specifically defined aspect of recalling knowledge. Players almost never want to recall knowledge just to learn the name of a type of creature unless they are counting on relying on their own meta knowledge of the creature, once it’s name is revealed. The structure of recalling knowledge is such that players want useful tactical knowledge about the creature when they spend an action in combat to do it, and so the mastermind ability is stuck in a nebulous space (where the ranger ability monster hunter also resides). Can you recall knowledge multiple time on the same creature? The same creature type? Is the default when players see any creature that they have no idea what it is or if it is like any others of its kind until they make a check? If yes, then a character recalling knowledge against every creature they encounter makes a lot of sense. If not (as the vast majority play it) then can the master mind even make a check, one at a time against 3 or 4 creature that all look pretty much the same? Is the goal simply to identify the creature each time? Is the DC going to remain static? Is the character going to continue learning anything interesting about the creature by doing so?
The rules have some guidance on this, but that advice doesn’t seem at all geared towards an essential class feature that a character is going to want to use at least on every enemy, if not potentially multiple times against the same creature.
All that said, I think my default position with my GM hat on is that characters can attempt recall knowledge on every creature to make sure it is what it seems like it would be, but would only learn something new about the creature type on a higher level tier of success, and only allow 1 check per creature, unless they clearly fail the check, getting the wrong information and reattempt the check with additional information that would help them accurately identify the creature for the first time. Basically, treat “identify creature” as its own special part of recall knowledge that is only loosely tied to the rest of its abilities.
I agree with all the sentiments shared so far. Also, if you had a creature who was immune to flanking (with all around vision,for example) it wouldn't necessarily be obvious that they weren't flat-footed. It certainly could be played that way, with a GM describing that you aren't seeing the opening you'd expect from your positioning, but there's definitely room for variety there.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It should be noted that the Game Mastering section does give you a bit more information on some of the things that Unicore touched on.
Game Mastering regarding Recall Knowledge
Creature Identification is clarified in that section.
But it doesn't really clarify the core question that RD asked, should a character know whether or not they succeeded on a Recall Knowledge for the purposes of Mastermind or some other ability.
I lean towards no on this one, as that feels a bit too meta gamey to me. Think about what the character is doing. The mastermind rogue recalls knowledge about their enemy, and they believe that they have figured out a weakness they can exploit, so they try and exploit it.
They aren't 100% sure that the weakness is accurate, they are just confident that it is. So if they did pass the check, apply flat footed when they roll their attack. If they didn't don't. They were mistaken and didn't remember that it's the Orc's left kidney that comes closer to the surface than it's right.
Since Flat Footed is a penalty that you apply on the "back end", unless you make it a habit to share a creatures AC with your characters, it's easy enough to obfuscate whether or not they succeeded on that check.
Edit: Also in that section under "Additional Information" the CRB says that once you try a Very Hard check to recall knowledge, or Fail a check, you can't attempt to recall further knowledge because the character has recalled all they know about that particular subject.
So to answer one of Unicore's questsions: Recalling knowledge multiple times on the same creature is a thing, but it gets harder each time, and failing means you can no longer do so. Allowing a character to recall knowledge against different members of that species is up the GM, and in the case of Mastermind I definitely think it should be allowed. Otherwise you have a core feature that has pretty limited uses.
This is probably 1 action away from being irrelevant. Your mastermind is trying to inflict flat-footed to enable sneak attack on their ranged attack, right? So you identify, get your info, and take your shot. If you are able to roll sneak attack damage, yes, you can infer from that your recall was correct.
I can believably imagine interacting with someone in combat easily exposes to you whether they're flat-footed or not. No rules treat it as a secret condition.
Give the mastermind their bone. It's not an overpowered field by any stretch.
...if you had a creature who was immune to flanking (with all around vision,for example) it wouldn't necessarily be obvious that they weren't flat-footed. It certainly could be played that way, with a GM describing that you aren't seeing the opening you'd expect from your positioning, but there's definitely room for variety there.
This is a great GM skill: translating system mechanics into description. You don't flat out reveal the mechanical info, but you do give a character what they would sense or feel from being in the experience. Good stuff.
|
Can you recall knowledge multiple time on the same creature?
Yes.
Sometimes a character might want to follow up on a check to Recall Knowledge, rolling another check to discover more information. After a success, further uses of Recall Knowledge can yield more information, but you should adjust the difficulty to be higher for each attempt. Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject.
That’s here
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can you recall knowledge multiple time on the same creature?Yes.
Sometimes a character might want to follow up on a check to Recall Knowledge, rolling another check to discover more information. After a success, further uses of Recall Knowledge can yield more information, but you should adjust the difficulty to be higher for each attempt. Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject.That’s here
I don’t disagree that you can recall knowledge multiple times on the same creature, but how many times can you recall knowledge to identify the creature?
Reading the rules, and seeing that there is no difference between identifying a creature and learning about it, I tend to agree that I would allow multiple rolls, but I don’t think that is the intuitive way to read the mastermind ability.
Also, do most GMs specify the knowledge gained to saying you only learned this about this specific creature, and not that you have just identified information about all of these creatures that might be present?
For the sake of the ability I think it has to work that way or else a dungeon of similar creatures means that only the very first check is agaist a reasonable DC and if you fail even one, you are pretty SOL because you can’t usually retry against the same creature.
I just almost never see GMs play recall knowledge this way. Recall knowledge is pretty different from feinting generally, although there are similar effects from the mastermind ability, when you can do it and what the DC are a little less codified, making it a little challenging of a class feature to get consistent use out of.
Can you recall knowledge multiple time on the same creature?Yes.
Sometimes a character might want to follow up on a check to Recall Knowledge, rolling another check to discover more information. After a success, further uses of Recall Knowledge can yield more information, but you should adjust the difficulty to be higher for each attempt. Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject.That’s hereI don’t disagree that you can recall knowledge multiple times on the same creature, but how many times can you recall knowledge to identify the creature?
Reading the rules, and seeing that there is no difference between identifying a creature and learning about it, I tend to agree that I would allow multiple rolls, but I don’t think that is the intuitive way to read the mastermind ability.
Also, do most GMs specify the knowledge gained to saying you only learned this about this specific creature, and not that you have just identified information about all of these creatures that might be present?
For the sake of the ability I think it has to work that way or else a dungeon of similar creatures means that only the very first check is agaist a reasonable DC and if you fail even one, you are pretty SOL because you can’t usually retry against the same creature.
I just almost never see GMs play recall knowledge this way. Recall knowledge is pretty different from feinting generally, although there are similar effects from the mastermind ability, when you can do it and what the DC are a little less codified, making it a little challenging of a class feature to get consistent use out of.
It's pretty easy, if unintuitive, to assume that your mastermind rogue goes through life with no inherent knowledge of what any individual living thing is.
"What's that?"
*Spends 2 seconds in deep thought*
"Oh, a chicken. They are delicious."
But realistically, assuming that the Mastermind "identifies" individual creatures rather than a blanket group is the only way their racket will pay dividends in the long run.
I agree. I just think that it is something a player is definitely going to want to bring up before they get started with the mastermind, because it is going to make a really big difference in play if the GM is going to handle recalling knowledge the same way as they typically do.
To help make this concrete:
The party walks into a warehouse with, i don't know 5 slime molds in it. They all look pretty much the same.
Archives of Nethys recommends that a party could try to use nature against a DC 16 or Occultism against the same DC.
Most parties are going to (hopefully) try to recall knowledge on one of them, learn a fact or two about them and then probably not try again.
If they do try again, would they be able to target a different slime mold and possibly learn more information about slime molds generally?
What would the DC be?
The rules recommend making the DC higher if you have succeeded previously, but is that against an individual creature, or for the overall creature type?
Logically, I think most parties would handle that by making it more difficult regardless of whether the character is trying to ID a different slime mold, except maybe the kind GM that would consider using the other skill to give the party a different kind of information about it with occultism than nature.
The Mastermind though is going to be in a bad spot if they have to fight 5 creatures that are all the same and recall knowledge is handled this way.
Personally, I would let the Mastermind recall knowledge against each one individually, but I would only give information away on the first success, and maybe again if they get a critical.
However, that is kinda gaming the system that says if you fail to identify a creature, you don't get to try again until you learn something new about it. Personally, I would argue that the mastermind, being a mentally focused rogue with no other special abilities, is probably learning something knew about a creature it is fighting in combat every round, enough so for it to get a chance to try to recall knowledge again, at least as far as getting a slight technical edge against it (flat-footed).
How about monsters that share the same base type but have different abilities? Would this increase the DC too?
Imagine your party fighting a couple of Skeleton Guards. Woudn't it be nice to know which of them actually do explode?
|
|
Primary INT and specialised Lore taken through the Additional Lore feats is likely to help the Mastermind succeed in most cases, until they finally fail and cannot retry. And even better chances if they really optimize for Recall Knowledge.
Taking this into account, I think the RAW of trying again until the DC is too high or you fail is a good balance point as is.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Looking at a skeleton, it's pretty fair to say you KNOW it's a skeleton. However, the recall knowledge is to know if that particular skeleton is special in some way, or to see if you remember that skeletons are resistant to non-bludgeoning weapons, or to remember that positive damage is a good way to dispatch them.
Just like how I can look at a bird and know it's a bird. I may not know what type it is, but it's for sure a bird. Some birds are easy to identify, like crows, gulls, or pigeons. I could even identify some birds of prey, but I'm not going to know EVERYTHING about them just by looking at them because I'm not a bird specialist. I might even come across something that's not even a bird, but just pretending and I, as a non-specialist, may not notice since it looks so much like a bird.
This is how recalling knowledge should work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just like how I can look at a bird and know it's a bird.
LOL in pathfinder an avian looking creature might be a humanoid, fire, positive, beast, animal, monitor, psychopomp, dinosaur, devil, fiend, fey, construct, undead, plant, aberration... Between creatures that can cast spells, change shape and/or naturally have a bird shape, It's hard to look at a bird and confidently say 'it's a bird' unless you roll even if you're sure the one next to it was one. ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just like how I can look at a bird and know it's a bird.LOL in pathfinder an avian looking creature might be a humanoid, fire, positive, beast, animal, monitor, psychopomp, dinosaur, devil, fiend, fey, construct, undead, plant, aberration... Between creatures that can cast spells, change shape and/or naturally have a bird shape, It's hard to look at a bird and confidently say 'it's a bird' unless you roll even if you're sure the one next to it was one. ;)
Don't worry, NPC guards will always recognize your bird familiar. Now roll for initiative...
/irony
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Primary INT and specialised Lore taken through the Additional Lore feats is likely to help the Mastermind succeed in most cases, until they finally fail and cannot retry. And even better chances if they really optimize for Recall Knowledge.
Taking this into account, I think the RAW of trying again until the DC is too high or you fail is a good balance point as is.
This doesn't quite explain how to handle the situation where there are 5 of the same creature though.
Does it matter if the Mastermind is making the check against the exact same target? or just the same creature?
Does the DC go up every check?
The additional knowledge section of the core rulebook says that it is for following up, trying to gain additional knowledge about the subject. Is that the same as trying to identify the second of five of the same creature? Do you boost the DC by 2? Is the mastermind just out of luck in the next room when they run into more of the same creature? That seems incredibly counter intuitive to the idea that the more the rogue learns, the easier a time they have of exploiting an enemies weakness.
It really feels to me like "Identify a creature" in the context of recalling knowledge is a part of the same action of recalling knowledge to "remember a bit of knowledge about a topic" but is also its own separate purpose that can be accomplished with recalling knowledge, only it is one that is nearly useless for most characters beyond knowing that this specific target is in fact the creature that the character thinks that it is.
EDIT: More so, I think it is an aspect of recalling knowledge that can only really be used once against any one target, because then the target is identified. Learning additional information about the target on the other hand, can be done multiple times with scaling DCs. The trick being that both happen in a single attempt to recall knowledge.
I really don't think there is an obvious RAW answer to how to handle this, but hearing different GMs in particular talk through how they would handle it can help future GMs think about how they would handle it themselves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just like how I can look at a bird and know it's a bird.LOL in pathfinder an avian looking creature might be a humanoid, fire, positive, beast, animal, monitor, psychopomp, dinosaur, devil, fiend, fey, construct, undead, plant, aberration... Between creatures that can cast spells, change shape and/or naturally have a bird shape, It's hard to look at a bird and confidently say 'it's a bird' unless you roll even if you're sure the one next to it was one. ;)Don't worry, NPC guards will always recognize your bird familiar. Now roll for initiative...
/irony
No need to roll a check as you have to yell a Command at it every round or it sits there, unmoving looking stupid [and maybe falling out of the air as you need to use a Fly action every round]... Either that or they can just pick out the bird that's moving at 1/3rd the speed of other birds [with independent]. ;P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No need to roll a check as you have to yell a Command at it every round or it sits there, unmoving looking stupid [and maybe falling out of the air as you need to use a Fly action every round]... Either that or they can just pick out the bird that's moving at 1/3rd the speed of other birds [with independent]. ;PJust like how I can look at a bird and know it's a bird.LOL in pathfinder an avian looking creature might be a humanoid, fire, positive, beast, animal, monitor, psychopomp, dinosaur, devil, fiend, fey, construct, undead, plant, aberration... Between creatures that can cast spells, change shape and/or naturally have a bird shape, It's hard to look at a bird and confidently say 'it's a bird' unless you roll even if you're sure the one next to it was one. ;)Don't worry, NPC guards will always recognize your bird familiar. Now roll for initiative...
/irony
"Go forth and scout my winged friend."
"Tweet tweet."
"I don't know... fly casual."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does it matter if the Mastermind is making the check against the exact same target? or just the same creature?
Not in my games.
Does the DC go up every check?
In my games, not for the purposes of getting your Sneak Attack. It doesn't get appreciably more difficult for other rogues to get sneak attack, so I don't see why it should for a mastermind.
It does go up for the purposes of whether or not you learn additional information.
"Go forth and scout my winged friend."
"Tweet tweet."
"I don't know... fly casual."
LOL
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Way I rule it : as long as you target the same individual for your Recall Knowledge, the rule of retry with higher DC until too high or you fail applies. When you target another creature, even of the same type as the one before, the whole process starts anew.
I think it is consistent with the bit about identifying Unique named creatures.
Note that this applies to the Investigator feat Known Weaknesses too, where you can get (and grant) a bonus to hit that specific creature if you crit your Recall Knowledge. And it does not grant any bonus to hit another creature, even if it was the first one's twin. I RP it as "That skeleton as a fragile left hip. Go for it."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It doesn't get appreciably more difficult for other rogues to get sneak attack, so I don't see why it should for a mastermind.
It's worth noting that no other rogue racket has an ability like the mastermind's to begin with. The scoundrel's is similar, but it merely upgrades the flat-footed feint always gives (and it's the only thing Feinting gives you anyways) and the ruffian and thief don't have a similar ability at all.
So saying "just like every other rogue" misses the mark a bit, because no other rogue racket has the ability to get flat footed as a bonus for making another type of skill check anyways.
It doesn't get appreciably more difficult for other rogues to get sneak attack, so I don't see why it should for a mastermind.It's worth noting that no other rogue racket has an ability like the mastermind's to begin with. The scoundrel's is similar, but it merely upgrades the flat-footed feint always gives (and it's the only thing Feinting gives you anyways) and the ruffian and thief don't have a similar ability at all.
So saying "just like every other rogue" misses the mark a bit, because no other rogue racket has the ability to get flat footed as a bonus for making another type of skill check anyways.
That is true, though the other rackets tend to just work while the Mastermind swings pretty hard in overall "usefulness" based on whether the GM lets the mastermind "identify" multiples of the same creature.
I mean the Ruffian will always be able to sneak attack with their bigger weapons, the Thief will always be able to add dex to damage etc... The Mastermind becomes pretty questionable if your GM rules identifying a goblin for the first time makes all future goblins "immune" to their racket ability.
The other issue I hadn't considered before: Can you reidentify a specific creature in the future?
Say your party encounters the BBEG who, as they are known to do, survives to fight another day. Another level or two goes by and they encounter him again. Can the Mastermind "identify" that BBEG for the purposes of their racket in their second encounter, assuming they did so in their first?
I would say yes. What do you all think?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well part of the idea behind recalling knowledge with society is that you can learn more than just combat related biological information about a target by recalling knowledge. If recall knowledge and your GM says, “that’s a human, they tend to be very diverse with a wide range of potential specialization,” they are setting you up for failure. If they tell you, “those are members of the phalanx legion, trained to fight in tight formation with heavy armor and cautious use of a shield, they speak common, but their native language is Osirani and they tend to respect those who show respect for their culture,” then they are at least giving you something to work with.
|
|
It doesn't get appreciably more difficult for other rogues to get sneak attack, so I don't see why it should for a mastermind.It's worth noting that no other rogue racket has an ability like the mastermind's to begin with. The scoundrel's is similar, but it merely upgrades the flat-footed feint always gives (and it's the only thing Feinting gives you anyways) and the ruffian and thief don't have a similar ability at all.
So saying "just like every other rogue" misses the mark a bit, because no other rogue racket has the ability to get flat footed as a bonus for making another type of skill check anyways.
That is true, though the other rackets tend to just work while the Mastermind swings pretty hard in overall "usefulness" based on whether the GM lets the mastermind "identify" multiples of the same creature.
I mean the Ruffian will always be able to sneak attack with their bigger weapons, the Thief will always be able to add dex to damage etc... The Mastermind becomes pretty questionable if your GM rules identifying a goblin for the first time makes all future goblins "immune" to their racket ability.
The other issue I hadn't considered before: Can you reidentify a specific creature in the future?
Say your party encounters the BBEG who, as they are known to do, survives to fight another day. Another level or two goes by and they encounter him again. Can the Mastermind "identify" that BBEG for the purposes of their racket in their second encounter, assuming they did so in their first?
I would say yes. What do you all think?
Yes too. After all many things might have changed between the two encounters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like Mastermind was poorly conceived, it needs a lot of shoehorning to make it work if you're adventuring against, say, "humans".
I think ""humans would be the easiest creature to make checks for: they have a LOT more background and info for them than a basic monster: take a skeleton or bob the bandit: there is a LOT more backstory to bob and a lot more to roll and find out while it's hard to come up with something new for skeleton #64.