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School conjuration (creation); Level druid 5, shaman 5; Domain plant 5; Subdomain blood 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect wall of thorny brush, up to one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
A wall of thorns spell creates a barrier of very tough, pliable, tangled brush bearing needle-sharp thorns as long as a human’s finger. Any creature forced into or attempting to move through a wall of thorns takes piercing damage per round of movement equal to 25 minus the creature’s AC. Dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC do not count for this calculation. (Creatures with an AC of 25 or higher, without considering Dexterity and dodge bonuses, take no damage from contact with the wall.)
You can make the wall as thin as 5 feet thick, which allows you to shape the wall as a number of 10-by-10-by-5-foot blocks equal to twice your caster level. This has no effect on the damage dealt by the thorns, but any creature attempting to break through takes that much less time to force its way through the barrier.
Creatures can force their way slowly through the wall by making a Strength check as a full-round action. For every 5 points by which the check exceeds 20, a creature moves 5 feet (up to a maximum distance equal to its normal land speed). Of course, moving or attempting to move through the thorns incurs damage as described above. A creature trapped in the thorns can choose to remain motionless in order to avoid taking any more damage.
Any creature within the area of the spell when it is cast takes damage as if it had moved into the wall and is caught inside. In order to escape, it must attempt to push its way free, or it can wait until the spell ends. Creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at normal speed without taking damage.
A wall of thorns can be breached by slow work with edged weapons. Chopping away at the wall creates a safe passage 1 foot deep for every 10 minutes of work. Normal fire cannot harm the barrier, but magical fire burns it away in 10 minutes.
Let us assume that the spell, although it doesn't say so, is equivalent to heavy undergrowth in terms of concealment. Is the spell 'see through' for the purposes of aiming arrows or landing spells? targeting spells require line of sight, and without line of sight arrows must be targeted at random squares correct?
The core rules say:
"Line of Sight
A line of sight is the same as a Line of Effect but with the additional restriction that that it is blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight (such as Concealment)."
Side question: what about line of effect? the spell says it creates a 'barrier', but the definition of line of effect says that it is only blocked by a 'solid barrier'. Is wall of thorns a 'solid barrier', considering you need a STR of 20 and roll a nat 20 on your STR check to move into it, and that you need 10min of chopping with an edged weapon to make a 1-foot dent into it?
"Line of Effect
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. A line of effect starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that would block it. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes."
Thank you!
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I'd assumed that a 5'+ thick hedge which does damage to those pushing through it is pretty non-transparent. I wouldn't assume it can be seen through. Without a 1'+ wide gap line of effect would be blocked too.
Thirded on avr. I've ruled it the same in my games.
And fourthed
I might allow you to see through gaps in the thorn "vines" but the gap would definitely be less than 1' square and thus would break line of effect.
As a note, it doesn't make sense (IMO) to talk about whether or not the vines/thorns are opaque or not. We all know that plants typically cannot be seen through when looking at their individual parts.
The question here is if it is dense enough to prevent you from seeing through gaps.
My answer here is...probably. You're certainly not getting line of effect, but I might let you walk up to the wall and then as another move action peer through gaps to the other side. But at best you're going to have a restricted view, and it probably wont help you too much.
Honestly, I like the idea that it's a smart tactic to hide in the brush.
It works as an effective wall, and just like a regular building wall cuts of line of sight/line of effect...unless you mitigate it. Remember, you can also magically burn away the thorn vines. So if the villain hides inside, magically light it on fire and wait for them to die from burns/smoke inhalation.
If you can't think of a way to counter hiding in the bush I think you might deserve to have your buffs run out.
Even though it doesn't explicitly say that it is "Heavy Undergrowth" in the spell description, it certainly sounds like Heavy Undergrowth to me. So I would use the Heavy Undergrowth rules for Concealment in this situation. It does say in the spell description that "creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at normal speed without taking damage", so there are obviously gaps large enough for arrows to pass through.
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It can be a double-edged sword. The enemies can't move out but the party can't move in. The lack of a save is the really annoying part.
Even though it doesn't explicitly say that it is "Heavy Undergrowth" in the spell description, it certainly sounds like Heavy Undergrowth to me.
Heavy Undergrowth doesn't require 10 minutes of chopping to get 1ft into. I also don't think woodland stride is good evidence that arrows can get through. (Edit: Although not even woodland stride allows it.)
Heavy Undergrowth doesn't require 10 minutes of chopping to get 1ft into. I also don't think woodland stride is good evidence that arrows can get through.
That's true, but it also says fire doesn't harm it and magical fire burns it away in 10 minutes, so I'm inclined to think that "10 minutes of chopping" a durability thing, not a "lack of gaps" thing.
If it was a true wall, "passage through overgrown areas at normal speed without taking damage" wouldn't even be an option.
Woodland Stride (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect her.
This spell specifically allows passage as if it were non-magical Undergrowth. /shrug
Not that this D&D miniature has any "Rules As Written weight" in Pathfinder, but fwiw it kinda shows that yes it's indeed insane to try to shove or chop your way through, but not impossible to see or shoot through. I think the 30% concealment and +5 Stealth from the Undergrowth rules is appropriate.
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Some interesting historical commentary on the wiki about it.
While the Player's Handbook v.3.5 does not explicitly say that you can make walls only 5 ft tall, the older sourcebooks say the caster may choose any sort of shape that suits the need.
The 3rd edition version computed damage based on how long a victim was exposed to the thorns, whereas 1st and 2nd edition computed damage based on how many feet of thorns a victim passed through. Nothing but damage prevented a victim from crashing through the older wall but failed Strength checks could greatly impede progress and prolong the time spent getting through the newer wall.
The changes just make me hate it more.