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I’ve been looking at the Fighter and how it has Takedown, Snagging Strike, Combat Grab, and so forth... I wasn’t sure if multiclass dedication got flurry of blows or not, but basically making a ground and pound Fighter who takes down enemies, holds them there and then just uses a lot of attacks to take down one enemy at a time. It’s a build I really loved in D&D 4e and has been completely absent altogether in 5e and it looks like it might be viable again here in Pathfinder 2E.
I don’t really enjoy how the monk is pidgeonholed into being Dex in 5e and there’s no room for a tanky brawler that can hold their ground and go toe to toe exchanging blows with a monster instead having to constantly hit and run. If that’s a build in Pathfinder 2E any advice on how to get there?
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Regarding flurry of blows, you can take that through monk dedication as a level 10 archetype feat. If you want to go light on DEX, Mountain Stance is an obvious answer for those who eschew armor, but you might also consider Gorilla Stance or Stumbling Stance, from either monk archetype ir martial artist archetype, as they don't have a requirement that you go unarmored.
That being said, there is some limit to how much totally eschewing hit-and-run run tactics is ever a good idea for anyone. Fighters can hold the line pretty well, but you will fight things sometimes where not making them spend actions to move will allow them to do some pretty horrendous things to you. Best to be flexible.
HammerJack wrote: Regarding flurry of blows, you can take that through monk dedication as a level 10 archetype feat. If you want to go light on DEX, Mountain Stance is an obvious answer for those who eschew armor, but you might also consider Gorilla Stance or Stumbling Stance, from either monk archetype ir martial artist archetype, as they don't have a requirement that you go unarmored.
That being said, there is some limit to how much totally eschewing hit-and-run run tactics is ever a good idea for anyone. Fighters can hold the line pretty well, but you will fight things sometimes where not making them spend actions to move will allow them to do some pretty horrendous things to you. Best to be flexible.
I agree. My point was that in 5e not only does the build not exist, but monks almost cannot just stay at the front line, they *have* to only hit and run or they get flattened.
A character who is a bit more tanky and has the option is what I’m looking for. Literally a brawler, and with like Spiked Gauntlets or whatever is necessary to fight unarmed and still have runes.
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Given the monk ac, it can easily tank in this edition ( no need for hit and run ).
As a matter of fact, have you considered a monk with the mountain stance?
or else, I think it comes down to Fighter, monk or barbarian.
Just remember how AC works in this 2e.
1) If you want to excel in tanking, you have to go for a class which hit legendary, which are the champion and the monk.
2) Every character with unarmed defense or either light or medium armor can hit +5 AC, whether it's +5 coming from dex ( unarmed ) or from a mix of armor and dex ( light/medium armor ). If you wear a heavy armor, you have +1 AC compared to those characters ( the exception is obviously, as stated on the previous point, the monk, which starts with expert unarmed proficiency, and scales as a champion does for what concerns master and legendary rank ).
3) Every character can use a shield to gain +2 AC, and some other class ( like fighter or swashbuckler ) also have some feat ( like dueling parry ) which give you a +2 AC without using a shield ( with some limits. For example, dueling parry requires you to have a free hand ).
4) Every point counts as +5% hit and +5% crit difference, so even a +1 is a huge bonus in terms of AC.
5) Consider that a +3/+4 lvl boss would crit a tank champ/monk with a 30/35% chance. If we consider a character with no shield and light/medium armor, the difference would be from 3 ( Pre lvl 7 ) to 5 ( from lvl 7 ), resulting into a 55%/60% crit on the first attack.
More than aesthetic, it's all about trading actions and feats to get something in exchange.
I'd consider the mountain stance monk, or else a Barbarian with animal instinct. A fighter might be a well rounded character too ( given a full plate and either hands free, for the dueling parry ), and will have several feats to deal with melee combat.
HumbleGamer wrote: Given the monk ac, it can easily tank in this edition ( no need for hit and run ).
As a matter of fact, have you considered a monk with the mountain stance?
or else, I think it comes down to Fighter, monk or barbarian.
Just remember how AC works in this 2e.
1) If you want to excel in tanking, you have to go for a class which hit legendary, which are the champion and the monk.
2) Every character with unarmed defense or either light or medium armor can hit +5 AC, whether it's +5 coming from dex ( unarmed ) or from a mix of armor and dex ( light/medium armor ). If you wear a heavy armor, you have +1 AC compared to those characters ( the exception is obviously, as stated on the previous point, the monk, which starts with expert unarmed proficiency, and scales as a champion does for what concerns master and legendary rank ).
3) Every character can use a shield to gain +2 AC, and some other class ( like fighter or swashbuckler ) also have some feat ( like dueling parry ) which give you a +2 AC without using a shield ( with some limits. For example, dueling parry requires you to have a free hand ).
4) Every point counts as +5% hit and +5% crit difference, so even a +1 is a huge bonus in terms of AC.
5) Consider that a +3/+4 lvl boss would crit a tank champ/monk with a 30/35% chance. If we consider a character with no shield and light/medium armor, the difference would be from 3 ( Pre lvl 7 ) to 5 ( from lvl 7 ), resulting into a 55%/60% crit on the first attack.
More than aesthetic, it's all about trading actions and feats to get something in exchange.
I'd consider the mountain stance monk, or else a Barbarian with animal instinct. A fighter might be a well rounded character too ( given a full plate and either hands free, for the dueling parry ), and will have several feats to deal with melee combat.
Do you think a Monk or Animal Instinct Barbarian with Fighter Dedication to cherry pick the Fighter feats which emphasis this unarmed fighting style would work? Honestly most of the feats seem to be level 6 or less.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
There's no reason that couldn't work. The level where you pick up fighter dedication would be a little disappointing, as the dedication itself would give you so little benefit, but that's pretty much the only problem.
Merging attacks from different classes is imo great, especially for a melee combatant ( also for a ranged one, but melee is more fun ).
What attacks do you have in mind?
Knowing what you'd like to do, we can try to understand what is the best way to deal with it.
It depends.
Using Fighter as the base.
1 - Snagging Strike
2 - Martial Artist Dedication
4 - Combat Grab
6 - Follow Up Strike
8 - Dazing Blow
10 - Agile Grace or Combat Reflexes
12 - whatever
14 - Path of Iron
16 - whatever
18 - whatever
20 - whatever
This one is just one thing, a brute, no fancy stances or Ki thingy, just punch people while grabbing and stunning, Knockdown feats are also on theme here.
Monk Base
1 - STR stance
2 - Stunning Fist
4 - Stand Still
6 - Stance Feat or Whirlwind Throw
8 - Mixed Maneuver
10 - whatever
12 - Stance Savant
14 - Mountain feat if picked or whatever
16 - Flinging Blow
18 - Diamond Fist if Mountain or whatever
20 - whatever
This one is a little more fancy because of stances but still focus on harassing the enemy with maneuvers and even thrown them away.
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HumbleGamer wrote: Merging attacks from different classes is imo great, especially for a melee combatant ( also for a ranged one, but melee is more fun ).
What attacks do you have in mind?
Knowing what you'd like to do, we can try to understand what is the best way to deal with it.
Well something like Knockdown attack into Combat Grab would be an interesting combo. IIRC Knockdown Attack is a 2 action activity and Combat Grab is 1 action.
At the point of taking down the enemy and having them grappled I'd probably just use Attacks against them, although that's why I was wondering about Flurry of Blows.
The main thing is to get an opponent prone, so Athletics Trip or Knockdown, or some other way, grapple them to keep them down so they can't just stand up again immediately, and then punch them to death.
Just remember, if you have the enemy prone and grabbed, most of their attacks will be against you and they may not bother to stand or escape, especially if they can swallow you or worse.
So I'd err on the side of defense and avoid the Barbarian and give preference to a full-plated Fighter over a Str-based Monk. The significant trouble with that is it your damage will be subpar for some time.
But, if you have martial allies, that shouldn't be too much of a problem since you'll be augmenting their offense enough (usually).
And if you don't have martial allies (or only one), you'll still be worthwhile tying up baddies from getting to the squishies while making it easier for them to land their Cantrips (most of which are spell attacks).
And the better thing about the Fighter IMO is, if you do find yourself needing to do more damage, you can break out a d12 weapon, or a ranged weapon.
I'd recommend a bastard sword, as it gives you versatility to go w/ a d12, or a d8 w/ Combat Grab, or it works with Dual-Handed Assault (along w/ perhaps the one-handed weapon Stance for AC. And perhaps not that Stance if you find your hands always full of grabbed enemies.)
Of course, Monks have the option to switch to better hit-and-run tactics due to mobility & Flurry, but the value of that depends on group composition (as does Whirling Throw). I had one group with three melee PCs that all wanted to skirmish. They kept ducking behind each other!
(I love both classes, so I'd be torn myself. If you do go Monk, think about Flying Kick to help with fighting aerial enemies.)
I asked about this in a thread a couple months ago and the build I arrived on after thinking about it some more was this.
Human (Str 18/Dex 14/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 14/Cha 10
1: Snagging Strike; Sudden Charge (Natural Ambition)
2: Martial Artist Dedication
3: Fleet
4: Stumbling Stance
5: Nimble Elf
6: Follow-Up Strike
8: Grieveous Blow
9: Monk Dedication (Multi-Talented); Sudden Leap (Combat Flexibility)
10: Flurry of Blows
12: Stumbling Stance (Basic Kata); retrain 2, 4, 6, 8
2: Rogue Dedication
4: Sneak Attacker
6: Free
8: Sudden Leap (opening up Felling Strike with Combat Flexibility)
Stumbling Stance doesn't require you to be unarmored while being a great d8 weapon
If you don't want the rogue dedication you can go half elf heritage and leave dex at 10 and raise Con or Cha some more instead and do something else with it. But the rogue dedication offers a couple nice things to me.
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Fighter as a base. You pick ancient Elf for Monk dedication, then you go:
-1. Snagging Strike
-2. Combat Grab
-4. Monk Stance
-6. Dazing Blow
-8. Cruhing Grab maybe?
-10. Agile Grace
-12 Flurry of Blows
You can run it with another Ancestry and use an agile weapon (Like a shortsword) and armor until level 8 (Monk dedication at 4, Monk stance at 8).
Its a cool, flowchart-y combo.
You get in Range, then if enemy is flat footed, you go flurry, if not you go snagging strike. Then you combat grab, if it fails and you still got an action you Combat Grab again, if not, you Dazing Blow.
You can also do a Trip in the first action if you have a decent chance of success, as you will get a AoO later.
If you have a stance or use fists you can use a shield too.
You should also be looking at builds for Animals Barbarians who are quite tough, plus Gymnast Swashbuckler with Derring-Do which effectively gives them advantage on athletics.
Schreckstoff wrote: I asked about this in a thread a couple months ago and the build I arrived on after thinking about it some more was this.
Human (Str 18/Dex 14/Con 12/Int 10/Wis 14/Cha 10
1: Snagging Strike; Sudden Charge (Natural Ambition)
2: Martial Artist Dedication
3: Fleet
4: Stumbling Stance
5: Nimble Elf
6: Follow-Up Strike
8: Grieveous Blow
9: Monk Dedication (Multi-Talented); Sudden Leap (Combat Flexibility)
10: Flurry of Blows
12: Stumbling Stance (Basic Kata); retrain 2, 4, 6, 8
2: Rogue Dedication
4: Sneak Attacker
6: Free
8: Sudden Leap (opening up Felling Strike with Combat Flexibility)
Stumbling Stance doesn't require you to be unarmored while being a great d8 weapon
If you don't want the rogue dedication you can go half elf heritage and leave dex at 10 and raise Con or Cha some more instead and do something else with it. But the rogue dedication offers a couple nice things to me.
I was planning on playing a Gnoll when the book with the Gnoll for a race comes out, it wouldn't be a pathfinder society character but a home game character.
IIRC It's called Mwangi Expanse? I can't wait man, Gnoll is my favorite race ever. Hyenas are my favorite animal and so naturally because Gnolls are basically Hyena people I love them. That's another reason I'm frustrated at 5e, it doesn't have, and apparently will never have, a Gnoll race to play as for a PC.
That and the whole I leg sweep you, take you to the ground and proceed to beat your face in build doesn't exist very well in 5e. However these fighter builds are roughly what I had in mind, and it's encouraging to know it multiclasses so well with Monk :D
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Dargath wrote: I’ve been looking at the Fighter and how it has Takedown, Snagging Strike, Combat Grab, and so forth... I wasn’t sure if multiclass dedication got flurry of blows or not, but basically making a ground and pound Fighter who takes down enemies, holds them there and then just uses a lot of attacks to take down one enemy at a time. It’s a build I really loved in D&D 4e and has been completely absent altogether in 5e and it looks like it might be viable again here in Pathfinder 2E.
I don’t really enjoy how the monk is pidgeonholed into being Dex in 5e and there’s no room for a tanky brawler that can hold their ground and go toe to toe exchanging blows with a monster instead having to constantly hit and run. If that’s a build in Pathfinder 2E any advice on how to get there?
So trip monk?
Throwing everything to the ground can be an effective way of tanking as a monk. Enemies have to waste an action standing up (and you hit them in the throat with stand still when they do), and you also waste one of their actions with stunning fists. An enemy with 1 action per turn is not as much of a threat.
Wolf stance is preferred for this. Wolf strike is less efficient as a 2 action move than trip+flurry, but it is better for MAP when you have 3 actions to spend (common, since you tank enemy economy).
Basic attack routines:
1 action: flurry (stunning fist is a fairly consistent debuff)
2 action: Trip+flurry. (You kind of lose out on having an attack without MAP, but you make up for it with a stand still attack when they stand up)
3 action: Wolf strike+flurry (similar to 2 action, but you replace the trip with an attack with deadly for your most accuracte attack. And you can still do stand still).
You can go with full strength with this build, and it is advised for athletics rolls. 18/16/12/10/12/10 are the recommended stats, with a bit more in CON if you can use flaws. Dex is a bit low, but with your proficiency, you start off the same as a ranger for AC.
Turning a non-monk into a brawler works incredibly well with the Martial Artist dedication, most especially thanks to Follow-Up Strike L6:
Make another Strike with a melee unarmed attack, using the same multiple attack penalty as for the missed Strike, if any.
This doesn't have the Press trait like the Fighter's L1 Exacting Strike, so if you miss your first attack, you take your 2nd with no MAP.
My question on this feat is, if you miss with your first attack, is your MAP sequence:
0/0/-4
or
0/0/-8?
The text doesn't give any indication of how to handle attacks beyond the Follow-Up Strike like every other feat in the CRB that interacts with the MAP mechanic.
Both interpretations to Follow Up Strike seem logical to me. The question being whether it resets the multiple attack penalty or just ignores the increase for one strike.
I believe 0/0/-8 is correct, as the -10 triggers "the third time you attack" which is still true even if the second attack bypasses MAP. The language for Multiple Attack Penalty only cares about how many attacks you've made previously that turn, rather than specifying it needs to increment.
General Consensus seems to be around what I was thinking with either Fighter + Monk Dedication or Fighter + Martial Artists Dedication. Either would work and I think I've got a pretty good idea on how to make it work, too.
Thanks everyone :)
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https://i.imgur.com/JFIrbGH.png
What's up guys, it's me. Now the aforementioned builds are assuming a home game in which my DM allows the Free Archetype feature (which he does, currently.)
If there's a table that doesn't allow such a rule then I think I can squeeze it down to a Fighter Only build.
The trouble I'm having is deciding which build to go with.
With the second iteration at high level you're doing Improved Knockdown (1 action) to Strike and Trip, Combat Grab (1 Action) to Strike and Grapple [Grabbed], and then Two-Weapon Flurry (1 action) to attack twice
Then when you've got them on the ground it's something like Combat Grab because I noticed creatures are grabbed until the end of your next turn, or their next turn, so you essentially need to re-up every round, then Intimidating Strike or Demoralize to inflict Frightened (X).
After that I suppose you'd want to Combat Grab, Shatter Defense, Two-Weapon Flurry or Double-Slice.
All the while stuff like Brutal Bully and Fearsome Brute are just piling free damage on in the background, plus Rage extra damage.
Or potentially Combat Grab, Graceful Poise, Two-Weapon Flurry which makes double-slice not do as MAP, then Combat Grab (1 Action) Double-Slice (2 attacks for no MAP).
And you're zooming at like 50 movement speed due to Fleet and the other movement bonus feats (I've checked to make sure they do stack).
I really, REALLY like this build, but the one thing I dislike is that it doesn't feel "natural" using weapons. I think the Werewolf Fantasy comes from using your Werewolf Claws and Bites to inflict the damage, and that's why I like the Bloody Blows Ancestry Feat from Orcs.
It turns out it's essentially the exact same action economy either way I think. Replace the above combat sequences that use Two-Weapon Flurry with Flurry of Blows and it's just about the same.
So now I'm really leaning toward the Fighter/Monk...because I can still take Barbarian later as dedications and still get the meat and potatoes I wanted from Barbarian, especially since the fantasy is that you're a White Wolf (think Winter Wolf) with the White Dragon Instinct into the Dragon's Rage Breath to emulate the Winter Wolf's Cold Breath attack.
The real struggle is being unarmored so it's Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and then Charisma which means my initiative and will saving throws are going to be garbage.
Whereas if I go the weapon way I can go Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma, shoring up my Damage, HP, Initiative and saving throws (Yay Full Plate) and still make effective use of Intimidation (I hope).
Although maybe I could just go for magic items to boost my AC and stay at like a 16 or 18 Dex or something, like Bracers of Armor and the Explorer's Clothing for the Fighter/Monk unarmed path.
I do like Tiger Claw for the slashing damage and bleed that feels very Werewolf attack.
I think the real struggle is feeling extra MAD, because you need strength for damage, melee attacks, damage and grappling/tripping. You need Dexterity if unarmored for Defense, Reflex Saves, etc. You need Constitution for HP and saves...and Wisdom for Perception/Will Saves...but I'd like Charisma to be able to use intimidate.
Although I suppose one could go Finesse and let STR slide a bit maybe? Or just do bare minimum Dex to get by? I'm not exactly sure. I think both are really appealing to me, and both produce very similar results, one feels more "natural werewolf" but I feel extremely stretched thin, and one is like Full Plate with weapons, which doesn't really sell the fantasy of being a Werewolf, but still basically accomplishes the same thing and is less MAD.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
Also if I were to build it bare bones I reckon I'd take the Monk Dedication, Flurry of Blows and maybe 1 other feat and Barbarian dedication. The main feats needed really I think are Knockdown -> Improved Knockdown and Combat Grab. Everything else is icing on the cake. Probably Agile Grace is a must have too.
Remember that unarmed attacks are not weapons for the purposes of feats like Two Weapon Flurry.
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Gortle wrote: Remember that unarmed attacks are not weapons for the purposes of feats like Two Weapon Flurry.
Yes, I'm referring to the images I posted, one of which goes into the Fighter with a Monk dedication and takes Tiger Stance.
The second would, I suppose, be a full Plate Armor wearing Fighter going into the Barbarian Archetype dedication and using a Spiked Gauntlet, or regular Gauntlet + Tekko-Kagi weapons.
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Werewolf flavor is a whole other can of beans I don't feel equipped to council you on fulfilling, but as far as "unarmed brutal brawler" goes, I think it would make perfect sense to split the difference and grab full plate (or other heavy (for +1 AC) or medium (for +5 speed) armor if you still want some Dexterity) while using unarmed attacks.
This would mean not using Tiger Stance, but you don't seem married to its exact mechanics: I think Bloody Blows and reflavoring a Strength stance (namely Gorilla or Stumbling) to deal slashing damage instead would get you there. The Grievous rune is also a thing if you don't mind dealing a bunch of bleed damage that doesn't stack!
As you might have guessed, I like the Fighter/Monk path more. Both would do well in combat, though. If you're ever struggling to decide what to do, think about your current level and what would be satisfying now, not what you'll be doing 10 levels from now. Retraining exists for a reason.
Good luck~
Alfa/Polaris wrote: Werewolf flavor is a whole other can of beans I don't feel equipped to council you on fulfilling, but as far as "unarmed brutal brawler" goes, I think it would make perfect sense to split the difference and grab full plate (or other heavy (for +1 AC) or medium (for +5 speed) armor if you still want some Dexterity) while using unarmed attacks.
This would mean not using Tiger Stance, but you don't seem married to its exact mechanics: I think Bloody Blows and reflavoring a Strength stance (namely Gorilla or Stumbling) to deal slashing damage instead would get you there. The Grievous rune is also a thing if you don't mind dealing a bunch of bleed damage that doesn't stack!
As you might have guessed, I like the Fighter/Monk path more. Both would do well in combat, though. If you're ever struggling to decide what to do, think about your current level and what would be satisfying now, not what you'll be doing 10 levels from now. Retraining exists for a reason.
Good luck~
I think my main worry is that I would like stances with Agile (and also I chose Agile Grace) due to a turn like Improved Knockdown (Strike and Trip), Combat Grab (Strike and Grapple/Grabbed), then Flurry of Blows (Two Strikes) and all of the MAP that entails. I noticed Gorilla Stance at the very least was not Agile and I worry for those -10 penalties by the time it’s all done. Although maybe I could demoralize or something over flurry of blows.
The idea is to just take something down, hold it there, and then pile on as many attacks as I can muster to pile up the damage... to that end Agile and dare I say even Finesse seem more suited to such purposes. Perhaps there’s another stance with Agile that would fit the bill which does not require being Unarmored?
Not to mention this little line: “ The only Strikes you can make are stumbling swing unarmed attacks.” really doesn’t help with the whole needing to use Combat Grab like a sustained spell to keep the target grabbed every turn due to “ The creature remains grabbed until the end of your next turn or until it Escapes, whichever comes first.” So in order to maintain the grapple I’ll need to upkeep that and I don’t think Stumbling Stance would let me.
I suppose I don’t need to take any feats beyond the flurry of blows feat at 10 after the monk dedication. I don’t actually NEED a stance. The upgraded monk fists to 1d6 may serve well enough.
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Dargath wrote:
Perhaps there’s another stance with Agile that would fit the bill which does not require being Unarmored?
Yeah bud, Stumbling Stance! Fair enough on wanting Agile, makes perfect sense and I kinda forgot about Agile Grace despite having it on my own potential brawler build — but Strike is an action, Strikes are not Grapples or Trips. All it means by "The only Strikes you can make" is that you basically can't Strike with another weapon — Grapples and Trips and such are attacks, but they aren't attack rolls or Strikes.
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Alfa/Polaris wrote: Dargath wrote:
Perhaps there’s another stance with Agile that would fit the bill which does not require being Unarmored?
Yeah bud, Stumbling Stance! Fair enough on wanting Agile, makes perfect sense and I kinda forgot about Agile Grace despite having it on my own potential brawler build — but Strike is an action, Strikes are not Grapples or Trips. All it means by "The only Strikes you can make" is that you basically can't Strike with another weapon — Grapples and Trips and such are attacks, but they aren't attack rolls or Strikes. Ah that’s interesting! Upon further investigation Knockdown is a Flourish and so is Two-Weapon Flurry/Flurry of Blows so I can’t actually use both in the same round. I may try for a Demoralize or something at that point. That’s good to know though!
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