I'm not 100% sure I understand the description of positioning but I'll attempt a diagram.
XE
EO
X is the PC, E are two enemies, and O is the open space they'd like to move to, preferably by 5ft stepping.
Barring any special abilities by the enemies that might stop them from moving (such as the Stand Still feat, only Stand Still wouldn't actually work in the case of a 5ft step because it doesn't provoke).
Nothing in the rules for 5ft steps prevent this.
And the reason why you can't 5ft diagonally through a corner is because you would be attempting to move through a wall.
I think you've made an incorrect ruling.
the rules for a diagonal movement specifically state you can move thru the corner or a person, even an enemy, even though later on it says you can't move thru a square occupied by an enemy unless they are helpless.
Personally, I don't allow it, as it kind of flies in the face of controlling one's space, but RAW it is ok.
The rules for taking a 5ft step specifically state that you can move diagonally with a 5ft step, and moving diagonally through two enemies like Claxon illustrated is kosher per the rules, and this movement would not provoke an AoO from either enemy (barring Step Up & Strike and similar abilities/feats).
the rules for a diagonal movement specifically state you can move thru the corner or a person, even an enemy, even though later on it says you can't move thru a square occupied by an enemy unless they are helpless.
Personally, I don't allow it, as it kind of flies in the face of controlling one's space, but RAW it is ok.
To me, it's no more egregious than the idea of 5ft stepping in the first place. Like if the situation were:
OEO
OXO
OEO
The PC can still move to any of those O's as a 5ft step without provoking. Moving to the corners isn't any more of a problem (IMO) than moving left or right.
Also, you can totally move though an enemy that isn't helpless, you just have to successfully tumble.
The rules specifically state that you can take a 5ft step diagonally to move around a creature, and also state that you cannot take a 5ft step diagonally around a corner.
Measuring Distance
As a general rule, distance is measured assuming that 1 square equals 5 feet.
DiagonalsWhen measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on.
You can’t move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step). You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent.
You can also move diagonally past other impassable obstacles, such as pits.
Closest CreatureWhen it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.
the rules for a diagonal movement specifically state you can move thru the corner or a person, even an enemy, even though later on it says you can't move thru a square occupied by an enemy unless they are helpless.
Personally, I don't allow it, as it kind of flies in the face of controlling one's space, but RAW it is ok.
To me, it's no more egregious than the idea of 5ft stepping in the first place. Like if the situation were:
OEO
OXO
OEOThe PC can still move to any of those O's as a 5ft step without provoking. Moving to the corners isn't any more of a problem (IMO) than moving left or right.
shuffling left or right is fine, I just draw the line of moving through an area of control willy nilly like that (but also why hex movement is superior! :P). I also don't like that you can move through areas with other obstacles without problem as well, like a pit trap. I think it muddies the water of movement to have side cases (either you should be able to move through everythings corner, or nothings) and it creates tactical movement situations that are too easy. But that's just me, I've been running that way since the first days of 3rd, you do what you find fun.
Left and right are no more or less under control than the diagonal squares.
You're applying an unequal rule otherwise.
I think you'd better off getting rid of 5ft steps from the game if you really dislike it.
Or rather, say that 5ft steps provoke.
I genuinely thought you couldn't do this, but I think I misread the rule - where it says "can" I read "can't".
I do think there's logic behind disallowing this movement. It's your game so if you want to implement this as a house rule then that's fine. Explain to your players how it works, and remember that they can use it to prevent enemy movement as well.
For thise who don't understand the reasoning:
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OXXXXXO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
This is a line of enemies blocking the path. They are lined up from east to west.
OOOOOOO
OOOOOXO
OOOOXOO
OOOXOOO
OOXOOOO
OXOOOOO
OOOOOOO
This is the swme 5 enemies blocking a different path. They are lined up from North-East to South-West.
Why is it that when facing one way they form a solid wall that people cannot step through, but when facing another way there are gaps in the wall?
The reason is because square grids do a failry terrible job of representing diagonal movement. Hex grids are better (though still not perfect), but all of these are approximations for real movement.
I think it would be a fair and realistic house-rule to say that you cannot step between two diagonally-aligned enemies since they are blocking the way. Remember that you can use acrobatics to move through thrreatened squares - or even through an enemy's space - so that sbould still be an option for the players here.
(I dunno if my diagrams will format properly, but hopefully you get the idea)
I will grant your example does have some weird outcomes due to grid alignment (orientation) but I think your second example and first aren't ultimately the same but looks very similar.
The difference being that there is about 7ft of space between people on the diagonal, so really at some point in the line there should probably be a gap.
Ultimately, yeah, there are rough problems with grid movement.
I think getting rid of 5ft steps not provoking it probably the best way to handle it if it really bothers you.
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This thread has gone on way to long for something so elementary. Yes, one can five foot step diagonally between opponents, but not around a corner. No, five foot steps do not provoke. If you want to change all of the rules, there are literally other games that have done that already.
Well my example doesn't just deal with 5-foot steps. With the diagonal line you could also move between the enemies by either accepting an AoO or using Acrobatics to avoid it. The non-diagonal line has a higher acrobatics DC (you have to move through their square), if you fail the acrobatics check you are stopped (not just attacked) and you can't move between them by accepting an AoO.
It's an imperfect system, so giving the GM a little wiggle-room is the courteus thing to do.
From the GM-side it's important to make sure the players understand what you're trying to achieve. It's good to have House-rules, but only if the players know what they are. Make a ruling however you think is beet in the moment, but make a note of it and discuss it with your players (which it sounds like the OP is doing). Moving forward it doesn't really matter how you rule so long as it's consistent and the players know the rules.
This seems like the sort of thing that would need to take the enemy's intent into account. They should logically be able to be close enough together to block passage between them if that was their intent regardless of their grid alignment. This is like standing in the middle of a 10 foot hallway, you can't on the grid, but it's something you could chose to do regardless.
I think you could make a blanket rule that you can step diagonally around the corner of one enemy, but you can't step diagonally between 2 enemies.
That's simple enough.
Left and right are no more or less under control than the diagonal squares.
except the diagonal move takes you through the opponent's actual square, that's the crux of the difference in the two moves to me.
I think you'd better off getting rid of 5ft steps from the game if you really dislike it.
Or rather, say that 5ft steps provoke.
nah, they're fine. This has come up a few times, but has never been an issue with the way we play it.
I mean, the easiest solution is, if you intend to stop PCs from moving past a line of enemies, make a horizontal or vertical line (relative to your grid) instead of a diagonal. Your the GM, you do get to control the NPCs, including where they start on the map.
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For thise who don't understand the reasoning:
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OXXXXXO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOOThis is a line of enemies blocking the path. They are lined up from east to west.
OOOOOOO
OOOOOXO
OOOOXOO
OOOXOOO
OOXOOOO
OXOOOOO
OOOOOOOThis is the same 5 enemies blocking a different path. They are lined up from North-East to South-West.
Why is it that when facing one way they form a solid wall that people cannot step through, but when facing another way there are gaps in the wall?
Well, in the second diagram the enemies have spread out a bit, so they're farther apart. If they were like this:
OXOXOXO
you would say there's definitely room to step between them. When they're like this
OXXXXXO
you'd say there's definitely not room to step between them. The diagonal version is in-between those two, so it seems reasonable to say that this is the point where they're just far enough apart to step through.
But, of course, it's all just an approximate simulation!
Well, in the second diagram the enemies have spread out a bit, so they're farther apart.
Yes but the point is that there's no way to simulate them being closer together if they're on a diagonal. It's a problem with the simulation.
I also understand that as a rules question this has been answered. I was simply pointing out where the rules fail to simulate reality, and that there is a fairly reasonable house-rule that could solve this if you're looking for a solution.
Well if you want to simulate them being closer together, you'd pack the corners in behind, which with 5 guys like in the example, still lets you block a 20 foot line. Not a flawless solution, but if you want better than that, the answer is to switch to hex and say goodbye to moving in straight lines.
Well, in the second diagram the enemies have spread out a bit, so they're farther apart.Yes but the point is that there's no way to simulate them being closer together if they're on a diagonal. It's a problem with the simulation.
I also understand that as a rules question this has been answered. I was simply pointing out where the rules fail to simulate reality, and that there is a fairly reasonable house-rule that could solve this if you're looking for a solution.
You want them closer, make them closer - course it will take twice as many mooks.
OOOOOOO
OOOOXXO
OOOXXOO
OOXXOOO
OXXOOOO
OXOOOOO
OOOOOOO
Another option are to switch to hexes.
Something happened regarding 5-foot steps in my game and I don't know if I ruled it correctly or not. One of my players has the Ghost template and did a 5-foot step past a corner to get closer to an enemy that had reach and could have provoked an AoO with any other kind of movement.
Can an incorporeal creature do that? I ruled as no at that time since entering/going through a solid object is its own thing for an incorporeal creature and incorporeal is different from ethereal. An Ethereal creature could have done this since the wall would not be in the same plane of existence and the creature is regarded as insubstantial. An incorporeal creature though has some limitations regarding material surfaces per the rules.
The wall was less than a foot thick and another room was on the other side of said wall. Doing his diagonal 5-foot step was getting him half in both separated rooms at the same time.
This is a complex and unique situation, but I feel it could happen again and I'd like to have your thoughts on the matter.
On another subject, regarding Ghost having only a fly speed, should that player make a fly check each time he moves in a way that asks for the fly skill check, or are ghosts permitted to disregard the fly rules (going up at full-speed, hover or moving slower than their speed without making checks, etc)?
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits and precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality. In addition, creatures with the incorporeal subtype gain the incorporeal special quality.
...
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
...
Basically, unless the wall was made of Force, or was thicker than the creature it should be able to pass through as if the wall isn't there.
It can't see through the wall, but a 5-foot-step should be fine - even if it ends halfway through a wall.
Also, I know this is the rules section but walking through walls is basically the most iconic thing about ghosts.
Thank you for the rapid answer.
Following the same rule, that means a shadow demon with the incorporeal subtype will have the power to do 5-foot steps diagonally past wall corners too even though it's not specifically a ghost.
Also, would a caster in Dust Form be able to do the same since it's considered Incorporeal?
For the surface to be thick enough, the wall corner would then need to be a 5 foot square of solid object so the ghost couldn't go through?
I shall adjust my ruling, unless someone has another opinion on the subject.
Anything Incorporeal should follow the same rules, though creatures small or smaller may not be able to if the wall is thicker than they are.
Regarding the ruling you already made, I assume the game has moved on since then, so I wouldn't retcon it or anything. Just tell your players: "Hey, I did some research, I got this bit wrong, from now on I'm ruling like this." Making snap judgements and moving the game along is about half of what a GM does, so you did the right thing even if it wasn't what's in the book. Since one of your players will be able to use this from now on they should be happy about the ruling.