Back when Magic Missile and its counter Shield were created there weren't ways to change either the damage type of Magic Missile or the descriptor of either spell.
We forward into PFS1 and the sorcerer with one of the bloodlines which allow for that very thing to happen to Magic Missle (because it deals damage, I've yet to find a way to change the elemental descriptor of a spell that does not do damage). In this particular case (but not limited too) the Djinni (electrical) Bloodline.
RAW: Shield stops not only MM but Force Missile (Evocation Wizard specialised school) as well as one of the words with arcane Wordcasters. The common element is Aether elemental [Force].
RAI: The point of being able to change the element of a spell is to bypass immunities and resistances.
What happens when you start changing the descriptors (and/or damage type of MM)
Main Question: Does an [Electrical] MM bypass the immunity a [Force] Sheild spell supplies, since their elemental descriptors no longer match?
Bonus Question: Anyone know how to change the elemental descriptor of a Sheild spell so that it could be changed to match the elementaly altered MM spell, and would that make the [electrical]Sheild spell provide immunity to an [Electrical]Magic missile?)
to answer the main question, Shield doesn't provide protection from a specific damage type (in this case Force), for instance it does nothing vs Force Punch or other damage effects with the Force descriptor, it provides specific protection from a specific spell, ala Magic Missile, while other effects specifically state that Shield also protects against them.
For sake of completness: the Elemental Spell metamgic feat would allow magic missile to do elemental energy damage. But shield would still block it.
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Force is a type of energy damage, so the djinni bloodline would affect it. The shield spell would still block it though, since it blocks any Magic Missile effect targeting the character with shield, not just magic missiles of force.
Any quote that says that? Resist energy (force) exist in your game world?
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Magic Missile is a spell that automatically hits, automatically does damage, and allows no saving throws to reduce the effect.
It deals Force damage, which is resisted by barely anything (nothing?) and even affects Incorporeal creatures.
Generally the only counters to this are:
- Spell Resistance (which is fairly difficult to get as a PC)
- Counterspelling (which is ... pretty bad)
- and the Shield spell.
The reason Shield stops Magic Missile is to balance Magic Missile. The fact that they're both Force Effects is nice thematically, but isn't the main reason for this interaction.
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Any quote that says that?You mean stuff like:
When casting the spell, the caster picks a one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic, or force.
This one says it is an energy type.
Energy Spells and Effects: Crowds tend to respond to flashy spells and effects. If a combatant casts a spell or produces an effect that deals acid, cold, fire, electricity, force, or sonic damage in a visible way (including weapons with special abilities like flaming burst or shocking burst that deal bursts of energy damage on critical hits), she can make a performance combat check as a swift action.
This one DOESN'T says it is an energy type.
Energy Attunement (Su): At 5th level, as a free action, a magus can spend a point of his black blade’s arcane pool to have it deal one of the following types of damage instead of weapon damage: cold, electricity, or fire. He can spend 2 points from the black blade’s arcane pool to deal sonic or force damage instead of weapon damage. This effect lasts until the start of the magus’s next turn.
This one DOESN'T says it is an energy type.
Blast Type energy; Damage force
This one says it is an energy type.
And then we even have flavor to back it up:A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage....
Flavor, right.
Resist Energy specifically only allows acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Not force, not negative, and not positive. Nice strawman though.
Not a strawman, simply pointing out that in the CRB, force is not considered a kind of energy.
Energy is an often questionable term as it is used both in its colloquial meaning and in the game term use.
Positive and negative energy have the same problem:
Positive and negative energy are two damage types, though despite their name, they are usually not included on the list of energy types you can choose with spells like resist energy or feats like Elemental Spell. You’ll sometimes come across both the phrasing “deals X damage; this is a negative energy effect” and the phrasing “deals X negative energy damage”; these two are functionally equivalent.
[force] isn’t an energy type and isn’t affected by the djinni bloodline. If there was a way to change Magic Missile to energy damage, i think it would still be stopped by Shield.
"Pathfinder Player Companion: Elemental Master’s Handbook © 2017" Aether is one of the elemental types a sorcerer with the elemental bloodline can take. (page 20/21)
Magic Missile becomes "School: evocation / elemental Aether [Force]"|
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[force] isn’t an energy type and isn’t affected by the djinni bloodline. If there was a way to change Magic Missile to energy damage, i think it would still be stopped by Shield."Pathfinder Player Companion: Elemental Master’s Handbook © 2017" Aether is one of the elemental types a sorcerer with the elemental bloodline can take. (page 20/21)
Magic Missile becomes "School: evocation / elemental Aether [Force]"
Curious, in my copy, the bloodlines are a p. 5 and 6, and there isn't anything about Aether sorcerers.
Pag. 20 has the Aether wizard.
And Element =/= Energy.
Sonic is a form of energy, but not an element.
Curious, in my copy, the bloodlines are a p. 5 and 6, and there isn't anything about Aether sorcerers.Pag. 20 has the Aether wizard.
And Element =/= Energy.
Sonic is a form of energy, but not an element.
Elemental sorcerers, not Aether bloodline. the options for the elemental types of an elemental sorcerer bloodline is Aether (from the book in question) all 4 of the CRB elements, void and wood elements are presented in Pathfinder Player Companion: Occult Origins and Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness.
Also, it's not reflexive, just because sonic is a form of energy and not an element doesn't mean that all elements are not a form of energy.
The point being made earlier in this: Shield was designed as a game balance to Magic Missile. It won't matter what happens to Magic missile, Shield will still stop it for game balance reasons.
I learned a long time ago "Game Balance" is the trump card on any argument and just learned to accept that.
that quote is from 9 years ago from JJ who has said a lot of wrong stuff over the years, things can change and he has been wrong before.
Elemental Master’s Handbook came out in 2017 which put into print that Aether was the element of [force].
Occult origins in 2015 did this for void.Ultimate Wilderness did this for wood in 2017.
All of those had been changed within the last 6 years by the introduction of additional materials outside of the CRB. (hence the confusion and my initial question)
In the end, the answer is: "Game balance dictates the one spell in the game that hits without error has an equally simple spell which nullifies it, Shield"
There are many more arguments including that the S and V portions of an elementally altered Magic Missile would be so different as they would be invoking electricity (in this case) instead of Force that it would not be the same spell at all.
The argument ends the same way, "game balance".
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Curious, in my copy, the bloodlines are a p. 5 and 6, and there isn't anything about Aether sorcerers.Pag. 20 has the Aether wizard.
And Element =/= Energy.
Sonic is a form of energy, but not an element.
Elemental sorcerers, not Aether bloodline. the options for the elemental types of an elemental sorcerer bloodline is Aether (from the book in question) all 4 of the CRB elements, void and wood elements are presented in Pathfinder Player Companion: Occult Origins and Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness.
Also, it's not reflexive, just because sonic is a form of energy and not an element doesn't mean that all elements are not a form of energy.
The point being made earlier in this: Shield was designed as a game balance to Magic Missile. It won't matter what happens to Magic missile, Shield will still stop it for game balance reasons.
I learned a long time ago "Game Balance" is the trump card on any argument and just learned to accept that.
There is only 1 Sorcerer bloodline in that book: Salamander (Sorcerer Bloodline), and it works only with Fire.
Plus:
Some philosophies include more than these four elements, adding aether, metal, void, and wood.
There is an aether elemental school that has Magic missile as one of the school spells, but it doesn't change the description of Magic missile.
If we use your line of thought, metal, void, and wood too do energy damage.
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The thing is that the rules have always been somewhat vague on what exactly counts as "energy" and what doesn't. Positive and negative energy are a frequent issue in this regard as well.
This problem has been known for a long time, but energy has never been properly defined in Pathfinder 1. However, Paizo seems to have made a deliberate choice to avoid that issue in the future and therefore they properly defined all those things right at the beginning of Pathfinder 2.
My recommendation is to use the Definitions from Pathfinder 2 whenever something in PF1 seems vague in this regard.
As such, the energy types are: acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic, positive, negative, force.