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I share many of the same issues with talismans as does Ascalaphus. I also don't like that I can only have one on any given weapon or armor.
Usually, I end up with a bunch of them, and never have the right one slotted when it comes time to use it.
Seems an unnecessary limitation to me.
something that I would love, because I'm entirely too lazy to do so myself as a GM, would be a storefront generator I just always let my players go wild "you have access to everything" but that leads to decision paralysis particularly because it is our first pathfinder campaign and we have to double check everything and how it works.
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I share many of the same issues with talismans as does Ascalaphus. I also don't like that I can only have one on any given weapon or armor.
Usually, I end up with a bunch of them, and never have the right one slotted when it comes time to use it.
Seems an unnecessary limitation to me.
They are awfully niche and often help those who don't really need it.
There is a Talisman I briefly recalled that lets you reroll a Fear saving throw, a generally useful ability, but it requires something of either the Bravery or Resolve features to use, limiting it to low-end Fighters and high-end Spellcasters (even Champions and Barbarians couldn't use it because their Master Will Saves ability is named differently!), and chances are, those classes are the ones who don't need help with Fear effects, meaning all it really does is help negate a bad roll (or just potentially reinforce a bad roll, since I think it also had the Fortune trait on it).
I just think that if Talismans had much more free-form application (such as not requiring being a Fighter or Spellcaster to use it) or had more sensible requirements (such as improving the effects of a feat means you need to have said feat), they'd have potential for memorable things (even a basic Fortifying Pebble is pretty solid and easy enough to remember, though I wish it scaled more). I'd also think that if you had additional potency runes on your armor that you'd get more Talisman "slots," in a sense. So a +2 Armor now allots 2 Talismans of your choice (though this runs into issues with non-Potency items, but those probably shouldn't have more than one Talisman for balance and gameplay pace purposes).
I also don't like that I can only have one on any given weapon or armor.
I'm impressed you've found enough that you want to use that you're feeling limited by the 1 attached/item limit.
Add to that that AP are built to be usable with PFSNo, they really aren't. One of the main reasons they went to campaign mode style sanctioning exclusively is that they don't want to put in the work to cut and fillet them so they fit into PFS format.
News to me that you can't run the AP's for PFS: I just saw someone advertising for a PFS game running Menace Under Otari, Part 1.
In campaign mode. It works different than running PFS scenarios, including specifically how treasure works.
Mind, I also question how useful having multiple options to choose from would be (for one, it would render that section at the beginning of each chapter listing possible treasure useless), I just don't think PFS is a reason why they wouldn't do something like that. If anything, wouldn't it make more sense to eliminate treasure altogether if it was built like a PFS scenario?
In campaign mode. It works different than running PFS scenarios, including specifically how treasure works.
*shrug* I honestly don't know what campaign mode is: all I know is that I've been seeing a several of ads for games that are both AP's and PFS. As I'm not personally interested in them, I haven't delved deeper into it.
If anything, wouldn't it make more sense to eliminate treasure altogether if it was built like a PFS scenario?
As I recall you can buy items from the adventure so it'd mean a larger pool of items that could be bought. That and consumables are free to use in the game so more variables in the game.
(for one, it would render that section at the beginning of each chapter listing possible treasure useless)
This would be the reason IMO: you're dealing with an expanded list of items that there there might exist and they could be variable from game to game. This could lead to quite a bit of variance in gameplay if one group gets a scroll of Resist Energy vs the energy the big boss uses while the other gets while the other gets a Potion of Swimming. That and the more variety you have, the harder it would be to track items as there isn't a set list.
In campaign mode. It works different than running PFS scenarios, including specifically how treasure works.*shrug* I honestly don't know what campaign mode is: all I know is that I've been seeing a several of ads for games that are both AP's and PFS. As I'm not personally interested in them, I haven't delved deeper into it.
The essential difference for this conversation is that treasure works differently in Society mode versus Campaign mode, so the AP are specifically not designed to integrate with Society play as far as items you find inside of the adventure (responding to this point here).
Add to that that AP are built to be usable with PFS and random treasure isn't really something wanted in a structured game environment.
Characters in campaign mode are not restricted in what they can buy, sell, or loot, except by the GM’s whims. Indeed, all society rules do not apply in campaign mode; only the reporting of chronicles, which you don’t even apply to the character running in the AP or Adventure.
I agree that talismans could probably have their price cut 90% and then players might start thinking about being proactive about using them, although there are probably a good 3 or 4 that are worth their current price. The crying angel pendant for example is an incredibly boring ability, but if you use battle medicine frequently, it is probably going to save someone’s life eventually, and by level 5 7 gp every 20th encounter might be a better investment than the assurance feat.
The essential difference for this conversation is that treasure works differently in Society mode versus Campaign mode
Is all PFS limited to Campaign mode now or do some groups run Society mode?
The AP content is chopped up and packaged in chunks friendly to 4-hour slots
Interesting as I know of games that don't have a 4-hour time frame: in fact looking at the PFS list, the APs with time slots are consistently 5+ hours while PFS specific stuff goes from 1.5 hours to 4 hours.
I think the point is that while yes PFS can use APs they don't run them in the same way.
Maybe, but it would seems odd to me they don't keep PFS in mind when making them.
(In fact I hate the Talisman implementation with white-hot rage, but I digress)
LOL Agree. I've had people say that the Talisman Dabbler archetype is super awesome because you get free Talismans but I struggle to find any I want even when they are free.
lvl 2-3: Potency Crystal ( eventually, owlbear claw )
Meh... Potency Crystal is only useful for a level or 2 at best and you activate it without knowing your roll while the owlbear claw relies on crits and crit effects and often the effects are unneeded [target died for instance], don't effect the situation [flanked target gets flatfooted] or you put it off for a better situation that doesn't come.
4-5: Jade Cat or Bull Pendant
For Jade Cat I don't find that I have to make a whole lot of balance checks and it doesn't help you ON the check itself: if I'm going to spend a feat to do this, I'll take Cat fall. Much like balance, I don't make a lot of shove checks so pretty much the same for Bull. I just don't see enough rolls for those skills making the class feat used a good trade.
6-7: Probably the worst one. I'd stay with the previous tier talismans ( you might consider snapleaf instead of jade cat, but I prefer the latter )
Now we actually have something worthwhile with Snapleaf: I can see enough situations that it could be useful to have it. The thing is though, by this level I could have taken a caster archetype and could have an actual feather fall spell.
8-9: Fortifying Pebble / Fear Gem
We finally get to a solid one, if you melee, the gem. The Pebble is uncommon so you have to go out of your way to get it, buy it and learn it so it's not a given: plus it's mainly for shields and if you don't use one...
10-11: Emerald Grasshopper
You're this level and worried about high jumps on a daily basis...?
The more you level, the less effective the talisman dabbler in my opinion, but early levels ( and even mid levels ) is not bad ( I really like the Swift Block Cabochon one for example ).
IMO, the lower level are really bad: until 8th, I don't see something I'd use on a consistent basis and I'd have to be a melee person. By the way, I agree that Swift Block Cabochon is nice but you're already talking 14th to get it AND have to be a shield user that doesn't have a better use for their class feats. For instance, if that effect was something I wanted I could have gotten it at 4th level multiclassing into fighter or viking and it works EVERY fight. Waiting 10 levels to get it and only have it work 1 round before I have to spend action and resources to do it again seems less exciting.
To say this better, it may not be the best dedication, but it's not atrocious.
Agree to disagree. Talismans are quite niche to start off with before you add 1/2 level to it. By the time you get something ok, you can see you could have gotten it a bunch of levels earlier with another archetype. It's not awful looking at it in isolation and don't look at the other archetypes.
I think it is also fair to say that certain classes can benefit from being more open to consumables than others.
Most casters should be pretty happy to find a useful scroll. And scroll are so cheap by level compared to other consumables, that they are actually worth spending your own wealth on making or buying. 65 gold at level 4 goes a lot further (at least in every AP I have seen) in scrolls than it does in wands towards making your caster have all day long sustained casting power. Buying a weapon with a striking rune at level 4 gives the caster some decent 3rd action attack power, but the value of that expenditure is at its absolute peak of value, as all the martial in your party are about to get their proficiency boosts and you are likely to stay trained for another 7 levels. By the time you burned through 16 1st level scrolls, you are going to be at a point where being able to cast a spell every round of every combat is the much, much better use of your action economy, than having a striking rune on a weapon, even if those spells are level 1 fear, grease, magic missile, or a spell you were able to cast because you didn't have to memorize a utility spell.
Martials on the other hand are almost always going to have a good reason to want to be using their wealth on their weapons and armor first, and then look for permanent skill boosts to more skills before they are going to be able to find 65 gp worth of consumables that are a better investment for them...Unless they are in a party with no casting/magical healing, in which case you probably want to make sure that every character has a couple healing potions on them, and probably a couple of other utility items as well. FOr example, maybe you hold on to that shrinking potion or invisibility potion you found (at 4th level) because no one in your party is going to be able to replicate that effect if you ever need it.
In that regard, I agree that most parties that build to cover each other's weaknesses and reinforce each other's strengths are going to "need" consumables less than consumables get awarded to the party and it will be smarter to sell potions of invisibility rather than squirrel them away in a back pack that gets forgotten about, with the caveat that some GMs are more strict about limiting when spells can be used from hiding than potions, because the rules of stealth, unnoticed and undetected are all a little complex for sorting out on the fly.
My party that uses consumables about as fast as they find them sees them do something pretty cool about a 60% of the time. They are a little behind on core items by level as a party, but they have absolutely owned a number of bosses by using items like scrolls of gust of wind, potions of resist energy, vials of antidote, and bombs targeting the right damage type, to make short work of more powerful enemies after they recalled knoweldge on the creature, ran away, and then came back prepared.
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The crying angel pendant for example is an incredibly boring ability, but if you use Battle Medicine frequently, it is probably going to save someone’s life eventually.
Minor Nitpick: The crying angel pendant triggers off of Administer First Aid, not Battle Medicine.
The essential difference for this conversation is that treasure works differently in Society mode versus Campaign modeIs all PFS limited to Campaign mode now or do some groups run Society mode?
The AP content is chopped up and packaged in chunks friendly to 4-hour slotsInteresting as I know of games that don't have a 4-hour time frame: in fact looking at the PFS list, the APs with time slots are consistently 5+ hours while PFS specific stuff goes from 1.5 hours to 4 hours.
I think the point is that while yes PFS can use APs they don't run them in the same way.Maybe, but it would seems odd to me they don't keep PFS in mind when making them.
Responding to all of this, Organized play made the call going into PF2 that it was too much work to adapt adventures to PFS style play, so they invented campaign mode which no longer required them to do so. Pathfinder Scenarios and Quests are run in Society mode, everything else (more or less) is campaign mode. I can't remember where bounties fall, but I think they can go either way.
Remember, Organized play has its own team and developers, and while both teams talk to one another, writing APs and Adventures for Society play would require running them under society rules instead of the core rules.
Given that constraint, it doesn't surprised me at all that they do not integrate.
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Yeah they basically realized that although there is some overlap in players, these are basically separate markets and products.
Some people want an ongoing campaign with a steady home group. Some people want to play with whoever they meet on Wednesday in the local game store. And some people are in both these demographics.
Historically APs were adapted for use as extra-long PFS content, but this was labor-intensive and kind of went against the grain, because it meant first writing a whole adventure, then figuring out which 70% of it to cut and keeping the rest for PFS. A small group of people liked these because they wanted to play PFS with all the PFS rules and felt campaign mode was too liberal. But apparently this group wasn't big enough to justify continuing to make Society Mode cuts.
We didn't get striking weapons on our weapons on the first book of EC, for example. That's why they are great.
Hmmm... I wouldn't call it great even then: you have to use it before the roll so it's quite easy to waste it and you only have 2 shots at it. Instead of Talisman Dabbler I could take Weapon Improviser for Improvised Pummel and get the same effect on every attack all day.
The pebble is simply uncommon, but also a talisman.
This is in reference to Talisman Dabbler getting free Talismans so it's finding the pattern for it or buying the item and trying to reverse-engineer it. So I wouldn't expect to "be available from any shop". Now by 8th level it might be findable but again, it's only really useful for a shield user.
Depends the battlefield, or the situation, it might be a teleport or a way to escape enemies. It's excellent. You might find yourself not using it in all encounters, but still it's excellent.
We're talking about a Talisman Dabbler and daily free items. A once in a while niche item is a once in a while niche item and not one you'll want day by day.
Not really.
Potency crystals work for either ranged and melee.
Same goes for a fear gem.
As for pebble, you would probably be surprised to see how many players go for the shield + shield block this edition. Even casters as their last action.
Yes, really: potency can be done better if for some reason real magic items are lacking. Gem and pebble are ok but I said until 8th and those are 8th so I'm unsure why you mention them.
It's action economy.
I don't think you got my point: you can get the EXACT SAME ABLITY at 4th that is usable all day instead of one limited per day. It's actually an action waster as you have to spend actions attaching the talisman over having the feat that just works. Again, remember we're talking about the free talismans from the archetype.
Again, some talismans offer some useful things but by the time you can get they from the archetype, you could have gotten a better version much quicker other ways so it leads me to ask 'why'?
No other archetype gives you free consumable bonus in terms of talismans. You can achieve something similar through dedication and class perks, but that's quite different.
The thing is, it's NOT different as multiclassing, archetypes and other feats gives those abilities: the feats you spend on Talisman Dabbler, you could spend on getting those abilities that work all the time.
Or even performing double block with the basic reaction and the cabochon.
It doesn't allow double as it still spends your reaction. It simply #1 allows you to use shield block if you don't have the feat and #2 allows you to block if you haven't raised first.
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Responding to all of this, Organized play made the call going into PF2 that it was too much work to adapt adventures to PFS style play, so they invented campaign mode which no longer required them to do so. Pathfinder Scenarios and Quests are run in Society mode, everything else (more or less) is campaign mode. I can't remember where bounties fall, but I think they can go either way.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not exactly sure about everything but that's ok as I'm not planning on playing PFS.
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I still think the biggest problem with talismans is just taking the time to attach one and then remembering that you have that one attached 8 sessions later when the very specific situation that it is useful for finally arises. Like, the monkey pin. There is nothing bad about the abilities it has and most players would probably choose to use it the first time where a creature is climbing away from them and that extra movement would be the difference between catching the creature you are chasing or not. And 6 gp by level 5 or 6 is nearly inconsequential, especially the idea of selling it for 3 gold. But it is not really anything you can plan around utilizing strategically for an entire battle, as it is only going to help one check and even if you had a couple of them, you are not going to be able to attach more than 1 to your armor.
Being able to climb 25ft in 1 action is essentially getting almost 3 climb actions out of 1 check, but you are pretty much then stuck where you get to, because you aren't able to use another one, even if you had it. Alternatively, a wizard or a druid or a sorcerer with a scroll of jump can move 30ft vertically with no roll, for 2 less gold. Or at one level later can buy a scroll of spider climb for 12 gp and have a climb speed for 10 minutes, again with no roll.
However, the Jade Cat talisman lasts a whole minute and basically gives you 2 feats for the price of 6 gold. There might be 1 encounter per adventure where those abilities are useful, so 6 gold for the equivalent of 2 skill feats when you need it is probably worth putting on your armor and even probably replacing after you use it.
Talismans are just not super consistent in their value.
My party really liked using the bloodseeker beak they found at level 4 on a boss at that level, since they have a ruffian rogue who could attach it to her staff (she is a staff acrobat) and then cause that persistent bleed damage, but the blood seeker beak activates after a successful hit, so there is no wasting it. I have a bard in PFS who liked to use the potency crystal as her free consumable for levels 1 and 2, but she would often only be making 3 or 4 weapon strikes an entire adventure, so she would spend a true strike before making the attack and never ended up missing with it in the 6 times she ended up using it. I guess maybe Talismans are kinda built around you maybe seeing cool usage out of one about 1 time per 3 or 4 sessions, per the entire party? And a lot of them have to be used within 3 or 4 sessions or their damage, DC or effect becomes so trivial that they don't have much value. At least then I guess you can take it off and sell it for some value?
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Responding to all of this, Organized play made the call going into PF2 that it was too much work to adapt adventures to PFS style play, so they invented campaign mode which no longer required them to do so.
Um, no, that's a misrepresentation. Campaign mode existed as an option for AP's in PFS long before PF2 even existed. It was not "invented" for PF2, it was decided that it would be the option for receiving PFS credit for playing PF2 AP's. It's been around for years as an option in 1st edition.
First I heard of it, and the promotion around it seemed to imply it was new, so forgive me for being mistaken.
Weapon improviser + improvised pummel will be available by level 4, which is the level you stop using the crystal because all the party get their striking weapon. Not really a good investment imo.
But you said you where is an AP where you couldn't get a rune, hence the suggestion. If you can find a rune, then you don't need the Talisman, hence it's a bad pick too. I'm not seeing a situation where runes are super rare until the EXACT time when you'd swap out of the Potency crystal and them they grow on trees. Even if that situation happened, it's for 2 levels right?: not exactly making lower levels great.
Apart from that, I think we give different weight to those stuff.
Clearly. This conversation started by me saying "I struggle to find any I want even when they are free" and that still stands. Some people seem to like them, even though it's a complete mystery to me why, so if they want to use them, more power to them.
For example, being able to remain alive because of a super jump would be the same as using dimensional door to escape a bad situation.
It might happend that you won't use neither the grasshopper nor the dimensional door, but this doesn't mean they are not worth it.
Sure, it's POSSIBLE but is it something I'd need to do every day AND want to spend feats on is the question not is this item useful in a very specific niche situation. How many times am I going to find jumping up 50'-75' vertically life saving in an entire AP? Maybe none. How many time might an actual dimension door that allows 120' in ANY direction? A heck of a lot more. So I wouldn't say the comparison is a very good one. I can see multiclassing into a caster and getting dimension door: I can't see taking those same feat slots and wasting it on Talisman Dabbler as the returns aren't anywhere close.
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And since I can't help commenting on the misspelling in the thread title: Distributing your treasure to your horde is a great way to keep up their loyalty and morale. ;)
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something that I would love, because I'm entirely too lazy to do so myself as a GM, would be a storefront generator I just always let my players go wild "you have access to everything" but that leads to decision paralysis particularly because it is our first pathfinder campaign and we have to double check everything and how it works.
Good news. Someone already made that for you.
Look closely at the Jade cat talisman. There are very many characters who might enjoy being able to use that one time in a crucial encounter, but would never intentional invest the resources to get that item as a permanent thing, mainly because an item giving 2 skill feats all of the time would be incredibly high level and expensive.
There are a number of talismans for both weapons and armor that can create some pretty powerful effects if used when found, or attached to armor for use in an emergency, or a back up weapon for doing a very specific effect one time, but remembering that you have them over time is a challenge, and the most talisman focused character in the game is probably only using one every couple of encounters anyway. It makes it hard to visualize or plan a character around them, so most players don't spend much time looking at them or considering them.
I actually think players new to RPGs as a whole are the most like to stumble upon one, use it in combat, and have it have a meaningful effect on the adventure, because they really don't occupy a space that most experienced players are accustomed to, and they are so situational that more planning focused players will rightly see that it is way too difficult to build a character around. Thus they are very easily written off as funny shaped coins for so many players.
Personally, I think it is probably a good thing that they are not so overwhelmingly powerful or obvious that they take up a lot of players' character design space. A player should be fine deciding never to use them and not suffer for it in play. But as a GM, seeding some ones that are particularly useful to your party might give the party the opportunity to go ahead and "attach it for now," while they are in the dungeon and then perhaps have some fun with it, or not, and just sell it later.
I can say that my party of new players that just attaches talismans as fast as they find them and then uses them at the first opportunity has definitely created some memorable moments by doing so.
something that I would love, because I'm entirely too lazy to do so myself as a GM, would be a storefront generator I just always let my players go wild "you have access to everything" but that leads to decision paralysis particularly because it is our first pathfinder campaign and we have to double check everything and how it works.Good news. Someone already made that for you.
this is fricking amazing. TY! And thanks to The Alchemist Lab if they are on here.
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Look closely at the Jade cat talisman. There are very many characters who might enjoy being able to use that one time in a crucial encounter...
Once had a party get one only to realize soon after that no one could use it. No one was trained in Acrobatics.
Consumables in general are pretty nice and certainly have their place in the game, but talismans in particular are needlessly restrictive. Every time I read them I wonder how much of that old "martials can't have nice things" developer mentality still exists in 2E.
If you cut out the restrictions, such as only allowing one to be equipped, limited item slots, and/or skill prerequisites, then they'd actually be pretty awesome--on par with potions and scrolls I dare say.
(Personally, I'd keep the skill prerequisites and kill everything else.)
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What I don't really get is if was just us the ones who got hard time finding striking weapons for the whole party or not.
Potency crystals really saved the day ( as well as hero points I have to admit, or we would have wasted one hit ) between lvl 1 and 3.
Just based on the treasure table, you wouldn't expect to see striking weapons at all before level 3. During level 3 and 4 you expect to find a total of 4 level 4 permanent items. It's not guaranteed that all of them are striking weapons, but going by the GMG recommendation to have 50%-75% "core" items, I think two, maybe three striking weapons is supposed to be normal.
Which helps keep Potency crystals relevant for a couple more levels on back-up weapons.
Look closely at the Jade cat talisman. There are very many characters who might enjoy being able to use that one time in a crucial encounter...Once had a party get one only to realize soon after that no one could use it. No one was trained in Acrobatics.
Consumables in general are pretty nice and certainly have their place in the game, but talismans in particular are needlessly restrictive. Every time I read them I wonder how much of that old "martials can't have nice things" developer mentality still exists in 2E.
If you cut out the restrictions, such as only allowing one to be equipped, limited item slots, and/or skill prerequisites, then they'd actually be pretty awesome--on par with potions and scrolls I dare say.
(Personally, I'd keep the skill prerequisites and kill everything else.)
That is a big part of why I think the GM really needs to think about what they are giving out and that APs can end up reinforcing the idea that consumables, and especially talismans, are useless if they are always getting ones no one can use. Like designers can assume that the theme of the AP will lead players to pick certain skills, but especially when the items require expert prof. Or greater, it is hard to predict what skills a party is going to be keeping up with.