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Focus Cantrips don't require focus points and are class unique as well as at-will, I'm pretty sure they were what lost the Witch the extra slots.
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If you want an arcane prepared caster, the Wizard is most likely the better choice. The (currently) only arcane patron comes with a Hex cantrip that's ok-ish at best.
The class feats of both classes are mediocre at best on average.
So if all you want an arcane caster, go Wizard. It's superior for that, especially if you pick te right thesis.
The witch does have access to vastly superior focus spells, though. And it's your only chance to play a prepared Occult Caster.
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Also, wizards can't refocus more than 1 focus point per time, so it is limited to 1 per fight.
Wizards can regain up to 2 Focus points with the right feat. Still less then the up to 3 points of the witch, but more than 1.
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The wizard can refocus 2 focus points with the level 14 feat "Bonded Focus".
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The point of the witch... well it's questionable. I certainly think it's one of the worse classes.
1) Never play Divine or Occult witch, you will just feel like a worse cleric or bard respectively.
2) Ask your GM if Lesson of the Frozen Queen is allowed... Glacial Heart is probably one of the big sells of the witch (IMO) and one of the best focus powers in the game. Without it, I don't think Witch has good enough focus powers.
3) Comparing the Primal Witch to the (Caster) Druid, you'd only ever pick the Winter Patron. You gain Clinging Ice, which is a decent 1-action option to add a bit of damage. You can take Life Boost, Curse of Death and Glacial Heart. While I don't think Life Boost stacks up to Tempest Surge, I do think Glacial Heart stacks up to Storm Lord, and is much better than Tempest Surge... also comes much earlier than Storm Lord. You also gain a familiar.
You lose a lot of defenses (HP, Armour, worse save progression) , and you don't get a great focus power until level 10.
Compared to the Elemental Sorc... well they have the same defenses you do, but they have 2 good focus powers (E Toss and E Blast). You gain a focus cantrip and scaling familiar in return for losing 1 slot a level. I don't think that's an amazing trade personally.
4) Comparing the Arcane Witch to the Wizard or Arcane Sorc... well both of the latter have awful focus powers (Dragon Sorc has Dragon Breath which is decent) so at least the Witch can carve out some semblance of a niche relative to those two.
The witch archetype is very good at least. If the class could get multiple hex cantrips, I'd rate it higher, but the fact that you're stuck with just 1... what are you really trading out a slot a level (or other impactful features like divine font or compositions) for?
Witches are waiting for options to get more and better hex cantrips.
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Witches are waiting for options to get more and better hex cantrips.
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
Sounds very familiar to my issues with Wizards.
"Wait until Lost Omens Gods and Magic comes out and Wizards get more options."
"Wait until Gamemastery Guide comes out and Wizards get more options."
"Wait until few more Lost Omens books come out and Wizards get more options."
"Wait until Advanced Player's Guide comes out and Wizards get more options."
"Wait until Secrets of Magic comes out and Wizards get more options."
:D :D :D
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Current Witches have all the drawbacks of Wizards and none of the upsides. Unless you can snipe really specific focus spells (the fact that we need to bring in Rare options says a lot), the class is mostly just not good.
The lategame of the class is.. fine. The basic caster chassis does better the higher levels get, but the earlygame of many witch setups is among the worst in the game. Class is in a really bad spot atm.
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Current Witches have all the drawbacks of Wizards and none of the upsides.
Wizards get free Familiar Abilities, one of which being Familiar Refocus, and bonus spells that aren't normally on their list with a Debuff/Buff Cantrip that can be cast at will and sustained typically an entire combat?
Oh they can't. Got it.
Everyone loves to just be like "all they get are hex cantrips and hex focus spells", but everyone always neglects the thing that makes them special:
You can sustain multiple Hex Cantrips and Focus spells at once which is the major difference between them and other spells of their type.
If you guys are going to complain about a Class, you should at least present the major benefits it has over other Classes instead of just equating it to "Wizard but worse", which is laughably wrong.
I've seen 3 different kinds of Witches in play now over different groups, some on vet players with PF1 experience, and I've had more people complain about the Druid than the Witch.
If you can't find ways to take advantage of the benefits the Witch provides, that isn't a reflection of the Class, but it is one of if not the most efficient caster in the action economy (what is the number one complaint about Casters generally? "What do I do with my extra action?").
Did some of the hexes land a bit shy of good? More would be nice.
Are there some weirdly bad feats? Eldritch Nails gets me salty because its flavorful but quite ungood.
Is the overall Class still good? Absolutely IMO.
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You can sustain multiple Hex Cantrips and Focus spells at once which is the major difference between them and other spells of their type.
This made me really excited because I thought I'd missed some kind of serious upside for the witch that I didn't see before. The statement makes me feel like Witches have a way to sustain multiple hexes as part of 1 action. If that's the case, I still couldn't find it on my latest read-through. Could you elaborate what you mean by this so I can figure out if I've actually been missing some important feature of the class.
As for the rest of the comment; my views on Witches are entirely rooted in practical experience. In practice, I do believe the class mostly becomes "strictly worse Wizard". If you know what you're doing and select good hexes, lessons, and so on, you end up with a passable baseline caster - certain good enough to serve you well across a campaign. The issues I've seen are more so when you don't make these "correct choices", in which case the class can feel absolutely abysmal.
You can sustain multiple Hex Cantrips and Focus spells at once which is the major difference between them and other spells of their type.This made me really excited because I thought I'd missed some kind of serious upside for the witch that I didn't see before. The statement makes me feel like Witches have a way to sustain multiple hexes as part of 1 action.
I don't think that was what he meant, but indeed there is actually is a way for witches to do that at level 20.
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You can sustain multiple Hex Cantrips and Focus spells at once which is the major difference between them and other spells of their type.This made me really excited because I thought I'd missed some kind of serious upside for the witch that I didn't see before. The statement makes me feel like Witches have a way to sustain multiple hexes as part of 1 action. If that's the case, I still couldn't find it on my latest read-through. Could you elaborate what you mean by this so I can figure out if I've actually been missing some important feature of the class.
You can't have multiple Compositions at once as a Bard, and Wizards don't get a lot of Focus sustain spells (almost every single Witch hex is Sustain).
As for the rest of the comment; my views on Witches are entirely rooted in practical experience.
Uh, I'd wager I've seen equal or more practical experience since its been the most played caster across my groups. Divine, Occult, and Primal I've seen in actual play. I can't say it for a certainty, but you certainly can't use it to evoke any kind of clout on the situation if that's what you mean.
How much practical experience? As you can see that I said above, I've seen quite a few witches and have played one myself.
In one group she was the most effective action economy user by a large margin. Evil Eye Occult is a fantastic Witch and I have no idea how anyone in their right mind would call it "bad".
The issues I've seen are more so when you don't make these "correct choices", in which case the class can feel absolutely abysmal.
Not really. The only real exception to choices being "asbolutely abysmal" is Eldritch Nails, but that's more of an issue with no in-class support for the Class Feat than anything else.
Every time a witch thread comes up people deliberately downplay all their advantages so they can say DAE think the Witch is weak!?!
Yeah if you ignore half their abilities, sure, they are "weak".
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You can sustain multiple Hex Cantrips and Focus spells at once which is the major difference between them and other spells of their type.This made me really excited because I thought I'd missed some kind of serious upside for the witch that I didn't see before. The statement makes me feel like Witches have a way to sustain multiple hexes as part of 1 action.I don't think that was what he meant, but indeed there is actually is a way for witches to do that at level 20.
I am aware of that feat... Not a huge fan of it for a 20th level feat personally (the baseline of an extra 10th slot is really good so capstone caster feats like that usually need to be strong to compete, and I think this one is pretty mid).
I feel like i' the only one actually liking witches more than wizards lol...
sure, extra spell slots are indeed powerful, but i like the flexibility of at-will 1 action cantrips offer. and the later on hexes are quite strong for focus powers imo.
plus when you go nuts on your familiar it's actually quite a good utility resource.
i've only played 1 witch to 8th level and seen 1 witch in my own table, so not that big of a test group, but neither felt weak to me.
if we go on about relative/absolute power, wizard is indeed slightly stronger overall, but i do not feel that the gap is so big that makes the witch a "bad" class.
Exactly my experience as well. Not saying my sample size is huge, but the number of times I've seen a witch "fumble for what to do with their 3rd action" I can count on one hand across several different campaigns/games and characters.
If your experience is that the Witch is weak, describe some experiences then. I can talk about how Evil Eye Witch, solid Recall Knowledge, and Weakness targeting turned the Witch into an MVP during a few encounters.
And I wouldn't even say the Witch players were playing optimally, they used regular Cantrips to attack more than I would have, but nonetheless.
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In one group she was the most effective action economy user by a large margin. Evil Eye Occult is a fantastic Witch and I have no idea how anyone in their right mind would call it "bad".
Evil Eye is quite, no doubt. If a new player selected that path, I think they'd have a good experience with the class.
Not really. The only real exception to choices being "asbolutely abysmal" is Eldritch Nails, but that's more of an issue with no in-class support for the Class Feat than anything else.
Nails really isn't the abysmal option I'm talking about. That's just one feat - if the rest of the character is good "wasting" a single feat isn't going to murder it. I'm specifically talking about bad hex cantrips, which in my experience make or break a Witch's early game.
The most obvious one to me is Wilding Word - having your hex cantrip be that situational is just a horrible time. Shroud of Night and Discern Secrets fall into the same box partially to me - they're certainly not as situational as Word by any means, but both have pretty serious table variance. For Discern Secrets, the combat utility will largely come down to how the GM runs creature identification. I think I'm a lot more generous than many tables on that front (I tend to allow my players to ask 1 or 2 questions about a monster on a successful ID) but even then I think Discern is a little so-so. Shroud is theoretically pretty cool, but is seriously hurt by the fact that everything and their mother has darkvision, exponentially so as you level. At the very least it's at its best in the earlygame, which is where Witches need the most help.
Many of the other Hex Cantrips are okay-ish. I think Evil Eye is the only standout one that really justifies the sacrifices the class makes, but my biggest Witch issues comes from allowing people to make incredibly poor, mostly irreversible, choices at level 1.
If your experience is that the Witch is weak, describe some experiences then. I can talk about how Evil Eye Witch, solid Recall Knowledge, and Weakness targeting turned the Witch into an MVP during a few encounters.
The absolute worst I've seen would be a Wild + Life Witch in a one-shot without animals. You're free to argue that that doesn't represent all of witch - and I'd agree, it's about the worst the class can possibly be. However, I think it's a pretty big problem the class can perform that poorly just based on a basic 1st level choice.
(I should clarify; this isn't me saying Witch is bad just because about the worst-case scenario is bad. I do think Witch is bad for this among other reasons - this is just me providing part of my experience since you did ask for it. If the Witch was overall great with one single terrible worst-case scenario, I'd look at the class a lot more favorably)
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So because there are 3 Hex cantrips, two of which are excellent in the proper circumstances and one of which has a heavy narrative focus, the whole Class is worse than the Wizard?
Oh and one of the hex cantrips is undebatably good.
See why I have a problem with that logic that the Witch is bad/weak?
Because it isn't and every time people point out why the goal posts move from "The Witch is bad!" to "Some choices are suboptimal at my tables!"
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See, I think we're talking past each other at this point. What I'm talking about currently is less a power issue and more of a design issue. Being penalized for making easy-to-make choices just doesn't feel very good. I personally feel like Wilding Word is a badly designed focus cantrip because it ties so much of your character's early game power to something so situation-dependent. It reminds me a lot of the kind of hyper-specialization you'd find in 1E, actually.
However, if the Wizard>Witch part of the conversation is what matters the most to you, I will gladly concede that point. I don't especially feel like trying to argue for an absolute like that (because it's impossible, Witch will always have at least some things it does better than a Wizard, even though I don't think most of them matter), even though I personally believe Wizard for the most part beats Witch in every way that matter.
Also;
So because there are 3 Hex cantrips, two of which are excellent in the proper circumstances and one of which has a heavy narrative focus, the whole Class is worse than the Wizard?
You make 3 sound like an insignificant amount. I understand you won't concede these spells are bad - that's fine, we don't have to agree there. But try to also understand my perspective here; I think all of these spells are really bad, and that's almost half of the available Hex Cantrips. Given this, do you really think it's unfair of me to think this affects the overall power of the class?
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I think it is important to point out that of these 3 hex Cantrips you have:
-the only Arcane Cantrip
-one of only 2 primal Cantrips (and the one linked to the more broad patron thematically)
If you want to play an Arcane or Primal Witch you are quite limited to these.
Also Wilding Word is excellent in very narrow circumstances to the point that is is useless unless you really try to make it shine.
Not only it only affect plant animals, but the one you casted it on need to attack you specifically.
For exemple if a pack of 4-5 wolves attack the group, if any other wolves than the one you used Wilding Word on attack you, the Cantrip did nothing.
And in the case you are attacked, if you are not hot, the Cantrip does the same as raising a shield, +2 circumstances to AC.
If at least it allowed you to protect other people or be cast on more targets when heightened, I could see use, but as is, it is just bad.
As for the fact that you can sustain several hexes and not composition Cantrips, it is balanced by the fact composition Cantrips affect a wide area, while hex Cantrips affect only one target at short range (until lvl 18...).
I don't think witches are weak, and they definitely have a niche with the 3 action system, their 1 actions hexes and Cackle, but their is a few things that could use tweaking.
And they could use more good lvl 6 and lvl 10 lessons.
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See, I think we're talking past each other at this point.
No we aren't. You said "Witch is weak", I said "No it's not, here's what I've seen", and then you said "Yeah but Wildling Word, Discern Secrets, and Shroud are situational".
That's not talking past each other, I'm literally responding to what you wrote and stated that just because your table hasn't been able to find value in those Hex Cantrips does not make them bad.
Humans in your game? Shroud is great. There are plenty of instances where you do have the opportunity to use this both in combat and narratively.
Wildling Word is great in the right circumstances. Heck, it works on Plants and Fungus too, which is a much larger subset of creatures than you make it out to be. In the adventure I ran with the Evil Eye witch, they would have been just as formiddable with Wildling Word if only for the fact that one of the enemies was a Fungus.
Every time someone doesn't see it your way and argues contrary, you can't just say "we're talking past each other".
I'm talking directly to your points. If you want to side-step my arguments, then by all means, but I'm not doing that to your points.
What I'm talking about currently is less a power issue and more of a design issue.
Hang on let me pull out my goalpost map. See if I can find where this is headed next....
Being penalized for making easy-to-make choices just doesn't feel very good. I personally feel like Wilding Word is a badly designed focus cantrip because it ties so much of your character's early game power to something so situation-dependent. It reminds me a lot of the kind of hyper-specialization you'd find in 1E, actually.
Except it's really not that bad and is strong when it gets to be used.
And complaining about options that I'd wager you never picked as if it affects the whole Class isn't really a fair assessment of the value.
However, if the Wizard>Witch part of the conversation is what matters the most to you, I will gladly concede that point. I don't especially feel like trying to argue for an absolute like that (because it's impossible, Witch will always have at least some things it does better than a Wizard, even though I don't think most of them matter), even though I personally believe Wizard for the most part beats Witch in every way that matter.
In case it needs clarity, I think Witch is on par with most casters.
And in terms of fun, Witches have expressed more enjoyment with this caster than other casters (including Druid, which is undoubtedly strong) in this edition.
You make 3 sound like an insignificant amount.
It's less than half, and I don't even agree they are bad, they are situational and you're not forced to choose any of them since each has a corresponding other list.
This also falls completely flat as more options get introduced.
I understand you won't concede these spells are bad - that's fine, we don't have to agree there. But try to also understand my perspective here; I think all of these spells are really bad, and that's almost half of the available Hex Cantrips. Given this, do you really think it's unfair of me to think this affects the overall power of the class?
I think it's pretty unfair to move the goalposts from "The Witch is bad" to "some Hexes are bad" to "Some hexes are too situational for me personally".
Which is exactly what you've done.
"I can't find success at my tables with Wildling Word and therefore the whole class is terrible" is not a fair assessment.
People are entitled to their opinions of what is strong or what isn't, but I take issue with people identifying one Hex cantrip as bad, simultaneously arguing "hex cantrips aren't that good" and that this singular Hex Cantrip at level 1 also means the Class is terrible at all levels of the game.
It's literally making a mountain out of a mole hill.
TL;DR Not liking certain options is not an indictment on the value of the Class as a whole, and learning the difference is important to the discussion. The Arcane list with a free all day sustain cantrip is good, so is bonus familiar abilities, so is a Free Focus spell at level 1.
The Class is actually fine, if you want to say one or two cantrips could use tuning, then fine, but say that. I'm not here saying Shroud/Wildling Word are the most versatile spells, but they have potency in the situations in which they are used. I have already expressed a House Rule for Wildling Word that I plan to allow, but that's pretty much it.
And complaining about options that I'd wager you never picked as if it affects the whole Class isn't really a fair assessment of the value.
This is a correct assessment since I'm an eternal GM, but I still feel a little insulted by the sentiment. I play with all sorts of people, including players who just pick options that look cool without considering their power especially. 2E as a whole has been great at not punishing that. Wilding Word + Life Lesson is something I've actually seen, and it really, really sucked. I'd appreciate it if you took my experience for what it was.
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After the last few discussions on the topic, I came down on the side of Witches being playable, and under the right circumstances strong even, and to a certain person they'll be a decent choice.
However my personal hangup is that I don't care for any of the current hex cantrips, and my absolute favorite part of the PF1 witch was getting tons of hexes to suit different needs all day, to the point where I would spend all of my feats on them.
The fact that the current witch only lets you get one hex cantrip, and none of them are my cup of tea, means it went from one of my top three favorite classes in PF1 (along with Shaman for their hexes and Slayer for their robustness) to my bottom three in PF2 (along with Oracle just because I don't like curses, and Alchemist because I find them frustrating to play)
The truth is that, if you're not one of the people who likes the current setup of only getting one hex that you might not be excited about, the class *is* likely bad *for you*. I won't consider it complete until it gets options to expand hex cantrip selection, even if that comes at some other significant cost.
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The truth is that, if you're not one of the people who likes the current setup of only getting one hex that you might not be excited about, the class *is* likely bad *for you*. I won't consider it complete until it gets options to expand hex cantrip selection, even if that comes at some other significant cost.
That's where I'm at. I'd even be fine with getting 2 spells per level if I simultaneously got multiple cantrip hexes, which would also take the sting out of any particular cantrip being situational, so here's hoping for a class archetype that does exactly that.
I want to like witches, but the options aren't appealing to me yet. Doesn't help that I can't play a mirror witch yet, but I'm sure that's only a matter of time (and has the advantage of not needing to be an entire separate archetype, merely a familiar option). Plenty of other stuff for me to play in the meantime.
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This is a correct assessment since I'm an eternal GM, but I still feel a little insulted by the sentiment. I play with all sorts of people, including players who just pick options that look cool without considering their power especially. 2E as a whole has been great at not punishing that. Wilding Word + Life Lesson is something I've actually seen, and it really, really sucked. I'd appreciate it if you took my experience for what it was.
I am also a forever GM, the "I played one" was an NPC, but a majority of the Witcehs I've seen in practice were players.
"It really really sucked" is not evidence and you've provided absolutely none of your experience. You provided an opinion, but no experience. You've told us that is your experience, but not the how.
As the GM, I have to ask what you were running, why your player wanted to play that, and whether you decided to adjust the game at all for that player.
At some point, some of the responsibility for whether your players with situational abilities "feel good" is whether or not you provide ways for them to feel good. The exceptions to that are APs that are run as strictly as written (which few people do) and even in that case, adjusting to the party is expected.
Not saying the oneness is on the GM entirely, but if you aren't providing any opportunities for success, you do share some of the responsibility for the Class feeling bad. Not saying hand it out like candy, but if your Witch was like "I want to be a good witch that can talk to animals, like Snow White but more heal-y" and you made it impossible to evoke those concepts by never introducing animals, plants, or fungus ever then at some point I'd have to ask how one of the most common enemies (animals) never showed up.
I'm definitely a proponent of removing specificity in options for that exact reason, as it becomes more work for the GM, but if I had a player that really wanted to evoke the "animals are my domain" aspect, then it's still my responsibility to allow them to evoke that theme. Wildling Word does that very well.
And I also have seen that exact combination. You wanna know what though? They were still a Witch with 2 Focus points at level 2, A familiar who could recharge focus points, and when the enemy hyenas of the goblins attacked you can bet she found some use in that.
They just never used their other spells? They didn't like being a INT based Cleric? What? ONE HEX does not change the fact they had more abilities.
You've decreed 2 other hexes as bad, how bout those? You've seen those too I imagine and aren't just musing at the white room right?
The truth is that, if you're not one of the people who likes the current setup of only getting one hex that you might not be excited about, the class *is* likely bad *for you*. I won't consider it complete until it gets options to expand hex cantrip selection, even if that comes at some other significant cost.
And I have no problem with this position.
You want more hexes and flexibility on cantrip hexes? Sure. I would wager there will be more of this in SoM.
But that's a versatility issue, not a power-based one, and one that likely won't be an issue past the next major book.
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You're being very aggressive in probing me right now, which I can't say I appreciate. The Wild + Life witch brought it to a oneshot which wasn't specifically prepared for what each individual PC might look like - I feel like I should be allowed to run those too. And yes, the Witch played really poorly... I really don't know why you find that so hard to believe. He cast his spells and didn't have a lot to fall back on after that unlike the other casters in the party.
Shroud comes from whiteroom and online conversations - APs apparently have a lot darkvision as you reach higher levels.
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You're being very aggressive in probing me right now, which I can't say I appreciate.
I'm sorry that asking you to back up your argument is offensive to you, but if you're going to make broadstroke statements like:
"Current Witches have all the drawbacks of Wizards and none of the upsides." (you literally conceded this almost instantly, and I don't even think Wizards are bad, just not as many options at the moment).
"However, I think it's a pretty big problem the class can perform that poorly just based on a basic 1st level choice."
"It really really sucked"
Then be prepared to defend them.
You're literally calling an entire Class bad because of one particular combination that your player did not have success with in a one-shot.
I'd assume that someone had more experience with something if they are making these kinda claims, especially to an OP who is looking for some understanding of the Class (none of which you did btw, you basically just called it a bad Class and said go play the wizard).
The OP asked for what are they missing about the Witch and instead of highlighting any of the number of things they benefit from, you instead chose to poopoo the entire class.
Forgive me for not allowing your opinion to be unchallenged, but I do not agree and this is a forum where OP asked a legitimate question that I tried to answer via a rebuttal.
Shroud comes from whiteroom and online conversations - APs apparently have a lot darkvision as you reach higher levels.
Evil Eye has the Emotion, Mental, Curse, Fear, and Enchantment traits.
Can you guess how many high-level combatants have immunities/resistances there? Quite a few.
I'm just sick of someone asking a legitimate question about the Witch and then the first few answers are "it sucks go play something else", which if you didn't mean for it to sound that way, apologies, but that's exactly what your first comment sounds like to me.
If we're making a power comparison of PF1 -> PF2 Witch, it will never be equal. Witch was literally one of the most busted Classes in the game by a considerable margin, and I would have put them above Wizard last edition (maybe even on par with Druid).
I like the Witch as it is currently and so do my groups, and my groups have played several different kinds of Witches and felt extremely effective. Just like your experience is yours, mine is mine, and every time I try to ask "What am I doing that's so different?" it turns out half the reasons are irrelevant to my games or are actually much smaller than originally stated.
TL;DR It gets real old when every time the "Witch is weak" gets met with any amount of opposition the goal posts suddenly move to "Well yeah but a few of the starting Hex cantrips are super situational".
Start with the latter next time, and I won't feel the need to respond at all, because rest assured I agree on that part.
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The Divine Fervor Witch I have going at the moment in PFS2 is pretty fun, though Blessed One is what really makes him 'click'. We;ll see how he progresses in play...
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Honestly, I see 2 issues with the current Witch.
1) Hexes are a mixed bag, and you get only a single Hex cantrip which is patron-locked (while I like Patrons doing something unique/relevant to the class, some classic options like Evil Eye suddenly becoming limited doesn't feel great & many Patron choices become redundant for multiclass Witches the way they're implemented). As more options get added, this hopefully will start to become less relevant.
2) Part of the power budget seems to have gone towards them having "the best familiar" which really doesn't add as much power as I think paizo thinks it does. It reminds me of the Magical Child archetype in PF1 where too much of the focus was on the familiar, leaving the rest of the experience sub-par (And was my biggest worry for the class when I saw them emphasizing the familiar pre-release.)
Overall, I don't think the Witch is in a terrible spot - but I also don't think what they get quite makes up for losing a spell every level and it is still difficult for me to get excited about them.
Currently, I'm running an Evil Eye Witch through The Slithering. Evil Eye has yet to be used with nearly all of the early enemies being immune to mental effects (along with everything else the party specialized in), and now that the Bully Swashbuckler is Intimidating everything for Panache - I doubt it'll get much chance to shine for the rest of the campaign. Familiar-wise, they've tried some inventive uses - but nothing that a Wizard with a familiar or anyone who took the Familiar Master Dedication feat wouldn't have been able to do just as well. Overall, the player seems to be enjoying it - but it is hard to shake the feeling that a Wizard or Bard w/Familiar Master could have accomplished everything the same plus have more options available.
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The Divine Fervor Witch I have going at the moment in PFS2 is pretty fun, though Blessed One is what really makes him 'click'. We;ll see how he progresses in play...
I also have a Fervor witch that I’m enjoying, but I went with elemental betrayal to pick up burning hands for a some damage potential.
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2) Part of the power budget seems to have gone towards them having "the best familiar" which really doesn't add as much power as I think paizo thinks it does.
Pretty much this. Familiars are an incredible asset, but the difference between a familiar with 4 abilities and a familiar with 10 is whatever. If at least they had lots powerful class feats I wouldn't mind that much, but they are also pretty meh (power wise, I find it flavor wise one of the coolest classes). Imagine having options like Sorcerer's Crossblooded Evolution or something like Bard's Dirge of Doom.
What I'm trying to say is that the chasis is OK (not great, but we don't have an alchemist here), the class may be fine with more content released.
What I'm trying to say is that the chasis is OK, the class may be fine with more content released.
I agree on this sentiment.
In fact, if I had a tinfoil hat theory, it would be that because the Developer responsible for the Witch left Paizo for another opportunity, that some of the options were either missed for tuning or left untouched in order to preserve their original intent.
Like anyone can take one look at Eldritch Nails and see the issues it has, or that the Lesson Feats are probably the most valuable choices for any Witch, as the options are so wide to choose from (and those Feats are only going to go up in value as the game adds more Hexes).
But, the baseline structure of the Class itself, IMO, is not only fine, it's good, plays well, and evokes the themes of the Witch considerably.
I also think those here that undervalue Familiar abilities as a bit weird to think that. Having a Familiar that can Fly, talk, Refocus, perform skill checks, reload weapons, cast spells, add to your spells, etc. are all major power increases.
So when I hear "I'd just take Familiar Master", I hear "If I take a Class Feat I can be worse than the Witch but comparable" but I don't even get out of bed for that argument anymore. Feats + Class when compared to a Class isn't a fair comparison and that's obvious. You've taken away 10% of the choices of a Class and given it as if it were already included.
One could just as well argue that while you were picking up Familiar Master, the Witch picked up Medic/Blessed One or even Familiar Master themselves. All of which boost their power.
10 Abilities might not seem valuable until you can purchase a Faerie Dragon and still get Familiar Refocus, Valet, Skilled, and Spell Battery on that same familiar.
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10 Abilities might not seem valuable until you can purchase a Faerie Dragon and still get Familiar Refocus, Valet, Skilled, and Spell Battery on that same familiar.
Probably its just me but I usually just want familiars for Independent, Valet and spellcasting benefits (I'm not fan of familiars as an aesthetic, so usually I just prefer the idea of having a semi-sentient magic item that helps me). So with that covered I don't really care about much else.
I know that scouting familiars are good, but as they are not my thing I use to not care much about that.
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I know that scouting familiars are good, but as they are not my thing I use to not care much about that.
How good it is at scouting is 100% up to DM fiat... It could be great or totally useless. Pretty much anything familiar related that happens outside of encounter mode falls into this.
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10 Abilities might not seem valuable until you can purchase a Faerie Dragon and still get Familiar Refocus, Valet, Skilled, and Spell Battery on that same familiar.Probably its just me but I usually just want familiars for Independent, Valet and spellcasting benefits (I'm not fan of familiars as an aesthetic, so usually I just prefer the idea of having a semi-sentient magic item that helps me). So with that covered I don't really care about much else.
I know that scouting familiars are good, but as they are not my thing I use to not care much about that.
What about the Specific Familiar abilities though?
Like for a single level 4 Class Feat a Witch at 6 can be packing a once per hour Breath Weapon that costs 1 action, uses your DC, and makes the opponents Stupified 2 and Slowed 1 for 1d4 rounds (or 1 min on CF).
I mean no if/and or but about the strength of that ability, Slowed is an insane debuff and it's almost as frequent as a Focus spell.
Especially when you consider Witches aren't punished for losing familiars basically at all, making the risk/reward for using these abilities virtually risk-free (especially with Pet Cache).
And as far as the popularity of Pets goes, I haven't had a game where at least one person didn't have a pet and several games where multiple people do.
People like familiars, and even if you were only able to recoup the benefits via narrative, I think we need to consider that Familiars do add an extra strength to a character whether or not we can assign a value to that strength is another matter.
There is some things we definitely can assign a power level to, and just as a note, Desperate Prayer is a level 1 Class Feat, and you can basically purchase the same thing as a Familiar Ability (costs 1 more action, but also no requirements).
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"Some choices are suboptimal at my tables!"
I don't think witches are bad either but in fairness I do think this is a very legitimate criticism. The focus spells are the main draw of the class and the balance for them is all over the place.
I'm not at all surprised someone who ended up playing a Rune or Wild witch has such dramatically different experiences than you and it's pretty clearly a problem, imo.
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"Some choices are suboptimal at my tables!"I don't think witches are bad either but in fairness I do think this is a very legitimate criticism. The focus spells are the main draw of the class and the balance for them is all over the place.
I'm not at all surprised someone who ended up playing a Rune or Wild witch has such dramatically different experiences than you and it's pretty clearly a problem, imo.
To clarify, I also had someone run Wildling, if you missed that above and I do not have that sentiment.
And it doesn't apply to all their focus spells, it applies to the ONE focus spell they may have had a less than flexible option to choose due to wanting a specific spell list (arguably, a trade-off since Arcane/Primal are generally considered "stronger" lists).
And while it may be a legitimate criticism, it's a choice a player made, not a dictation of the Class as a whole which the person stated outright.
And that choice, given the circumstances where it can shine, does have pay-offs.
No one here would argue -2 to attack and sickened 1 isn't a huge debuff, so instead, we're arguing "Yeah but it's only on 3 creature types so the spell is garbage".
The reality is that the spell is good, the spell is just super situational. We could make just as many arguments at length for the other portions of the game that are heavily situational (such as Trap Sense, Divine Ally Steed, etc.)
All of that doesn't take away from the fact that OP asked what they were missing about the Witch, and instead got "Witch sucks play a Wizard".
I still want more options for the Witch, but it's not even the worst caster IMO and I would put its versatility above Swashbuckler Warpriest, and its power vastly above Alchemist (but lets not pick on them, it's pretty clear they have issues).
I am not saying the Class has perfect options, they definitely could be better and I hate Ivory Tower Design, but when a player comes here for advice I guess I expect the community here to be a little more nuanced and helpful than "nah it's bad".
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I like familiars a lot, but more as a ribbon than as a meaningful portion of my class's power. I like to use them to occasionally scout or carry something small or do other little things. Basically, they're a supplement to Prestidigitation, allowing me to solve some little problems here and there, usually as a tool in the toolkit the whole party can get in on planning around.
Once they start getting too useful, I start to hate them. They start taking up the spotlight AND my class's power budget, so that I *have* to lobby to leverage them at any opportunity to justify my class's power level.
I hate using them in combat. If I use them as an active participant like delivering spells and having a token on the game board, I would rather go all the way and play a class with an animal companion. If I'm using them to boost my action economy I feel sort of goofy and cheesy and I'm just waiting for a GM to finally screw with my familiar just to shake me up.
At least as many wizards as witches I can think of had familiars, so I don't really see them as a big focus of the Witch fantasy. I also grew up with Witches not needing a Patron, instead performing more esoteric, experimental, fringe magic, only calling upon greater forces for their really big stuff.
As such I really REALLY want a Witch archetype that drops Patrons as a major thing and either makes a familiar optional, or gives a regular one. Then goes hard into hexes and spell list tinkering.
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I know that scouting familiars are good, but as they are not my thing I use to not care much about that.How good it is at scouting is 100% up to DM fiat... It could be great or totally useless. Pretty much anything familiar related that happens outside of encounter mode falls into this.
True, they are as inconspicuous as your DM wants them to be.
Not exactly the same but my DM once have an entire camp of enemies behind me scouting polimorphed as a squirrel because "they were hungry". The same can happen to familiars.
Like for a single level 4 Class Feat a Witch at 6 can be packing a once per hour Breath Weapon that costs 1 action, uses your DC, and makes the opponents Stupified 2 and Slowed 1 for 1d4 rounds (or 1 min on CF).
Yeah, Faerie Dragon Breath is an awesome thing to have, but if I compare Hex cantrips + Big Familiar with a Wizard Thesis + School I would always take the Wizard's. It's not that familiars with tons of abilities are bad, but as Charon Onozuka said, they are a great part of the power budget of the class that may be not as good as it could be.
Either way, as I said before, I still think Witches will be fine in the long run.
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Take the witch: The familiar with a couple extra abilities is one of those choices which REQUIRE a GMs assistance to be useful.
False. Familiar Refocus, Cantrip Expansion, Spell Battery, Skilled (which allows Aid), Vallet, etc. are all demonstrably valuable and require 0 assistance from the GM.
Also, saying that the Witch is powerful because if you choose the correct patron and pick the right 6 feats, it becomes an average wizard equivalent is not a resounding endorsement of the class.
No one said that.
People talk about how powerful the non-redeemer Champions really is, yet I do not think I have seen a non-redeemer played more than a handful of times. People talk about the insane power of the Hag and Undead sorcerers, yet the times I have seen them played they were quite “underwhelming.” People like talking about the Wit Ranger, yet again that is so dependent upon GM help it is not funny.
None of these are dependent on GM help and I fail to see how Wit Ranger falls into that category (or even Redeemer Champion).
In other words, the Witch can be powerful IF you take the correct set of feats and patron, have an understanding GM, and the correct campaign. Otherwise, a Wizard is more useful
Not really at all and it's weird to arrive at that conclusion based on anything that's been discussed in this thread or even on a general sentiment of how you personally feel on the Class.
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I like witch as a base for a necromancer bc of natural ambition snagging cackle at lvl 1. I would still probably multiclass wizard for more slots and going arcane would preclude me from evil eye (which is the only hex cantrip that interested me personally). If I could get evil eye on my arcane witch I'd be all aboard the witch train
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Every class and subclass has its fan-boys. For example, I have read threads which claim that the pre-errata Alchemist was the most powerful chassis on PF2. I have also read threads which discuss the insane power of the snare ranger. However, that does not mean those beliefs are widespread especially if you look across the range of campaigns/scenarios. You can make ANY class an MVP in the correct scenario (even a non-class like a commoner).
The two questions to ask of any class: “How much of a classes features are either niche or require GM assistance?” and “Are the subclass choices useful or does everyone have to take the same set of feats to be useful?”
Take the witch: The familiar with a couple extra abilities is one of those choices which REQUIRE a GMs assistance to be useful. Also, saying that the Witch is powerful because if you choose the correct patron and pick the right 6 feats, it becomes an average wizard equivalent is not a resounding endorsement of the class.People talk about how powerful the non-redeemer Champions really is, yet I do not think I have seen a non-redeemer played more than a handful of times. People talk about the insane power of the Hag and Undead sorcerers, yet the times I have seen them played they were quite “underwhelming.” People like talking about the Wit Ranger, yet again that is so dependent upon GM help it is not funny.
In other words, the Witch can be powerful IF you take the correct set of feats and patron, have an understanding GM, and the correct campaign. Otherwise, a Wizard is more useful
As someone who is playing a Paladin Champion with a reach weapon, I have been very useful in both reducing damage allies take while also dishing out some punishment, especially if they are Evil, or are Demons. I have seen the power of a Redeemer reaction in real play, and it just doesn't seem as powerful. Yes, they reduce the same amount of damage, and Enfeebled 2 is usually a good debuff to put on enemies, especially with no saving throw, but there are some cases (spellcaster enemies in particular) where Enfeebled either does nothing, or doesn't make a difference based on roll modifiers (such as with a boss monster) outside of reducing 2 more damage per hit.
Back on topic, I will say that a Witch isn't very strong unless built correctly and is somewhat appropriate for an upcoming campaign. The fact that it's much easier to build a trash Witch than it is to build a trash Wizard is perhaps more telling on the fact that a Wizard's strength is his Spells, and not his other powers, contrast to a Witch whose power is in their familiar and hexes.
For starters, Familiars suck in this edition and are too subject to table variance to expect anything normal from them. The fact the Witch doubles down on this isn't very good for their power outlook, because it's polishing a turd, in my opinion.
Furthermore, Hexes are delegated to Focus powers. Which isn't necessarily wrong, but are only a slight step above the garbage that are Wizard Focus powers, and their Hex Cantrips are only limited to one, based on their Patron choice, and are so wildly varied on their usefulness that it really beckons the question of why we have multiple when there really should only be one or two actual choices.
When the primary focus of the class (Familiars and Patrons) sucks and the other focus that people wanted it to really be about (Hexes) went down the toilet bowl, it's no surprise people are jumping the gun and saying that Witches suck. It's not that you can't build a good Witch, or that a Witch isn't viable. It sucks because what it focuses on sucks and what made it good in the previous edition sucks now.
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When the primary focus of the class (Familiars and Patrons) sucks and the other focus that people wanted it to really be about (Hexes) went down the toilet bowl, it's no surprise people are jumping the gun and saying that Witches suck. It's not that you can't build a good Witch, or that a Witch isn't viable. It sucks because what it focuses on sucks and what made it good in the previous edition sucks now.
Honestly, this is really the whole thread.
Every person I see trash the witch was the same set of people that had a problem with the Playtest design of the Class.
I'm sorry you don't like Familiars or Patrons or Lessons, but it doesn't make it "weak", it just makes it not something you personally prefer.
As an example, I don't like the current design of the Gunslinger as it is in the Playtest at all. I find it bland, doesn't evoke any real "gunslinger vibes", doesn't have a true Grit system, and is basically Fighter with less options.
Does that make the Class weak? Not really. It's actually fine, it has some issues as far as being Streak-y when it comes to crits and some logistics issues at the moment, but it is not a "weak" Class.
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I'm all for adding more Hexibility, that sounds great, but I also recognize the Class isn't weak, Patrons and Familiars are incorporated elegantly into the Class and do provide meaningful returns on power, and Hex Cantrips/Focus Spells are solid (despite the sentiment some express here, compare them to other spells and it's pretty easy to see they are in fact just as good).
The more options that come, the less issues people are going to have with the whole "But I want Primal and I don't want Wildling Word but I also don't want Winter Witch", which is about as fair as saying "I want to be a Braggart but I don't want to use Demoralize!"
Witch was god in PF1, I really don't think there was ever going to be a world where PF2 Witch resembled anything that powerful.
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The Witch to me is a class with too much of a difference between their best and worst builds. On one hand, you have cantrip like Stoke the Heart, Evil Eye, and Nudge Fate which can be used every single encounter, and on the other hand you have ones like Shroud of Night, Wilding Word, and Discern Secrets which many witches will struggle to ever use effectively. From experience with a few different witches, hex selection will be the biggest factor on if a Witch enjoys their character or not.