We're getting towards the end of book five and my table has decided to try to help the Glorious Reclamation bring down Cheliax by goading House Thrune into attacking them. I'm asking for advice on what you'd do to make some interesting and tough challenges out of the players' choices without just shutting them down.
What would House Thrune do if Ravounel suddenly rebuilt the Keep at Menador Gap and made an incursion towards Kantaria?
How likely is it that Queen Abrogail Thrune II will know of the secret clause of the Kintargo Contract without being prompted by a letter requesting negotiations? (As in, how likely do you feel that the extra provocation of an exploratory invasion would lead to a critical mistake?)
How significant a military force could Thrune send against them?
Background: They've formed Ravounel perfectly under the Kintargo Contract.
Background: They've not yet informed the Town Council of the plan--the reps believe that they're rebuilding the keep at Menador Gap as a purely defensive measure. (Assume any diplomacy check will be 45 or above.)
Background: The Glorious Reclamation has not yet lost Citadel Dinyar and still retains Westcrown.
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Ravounel is small, geographically isolated, and what military power it possesses is naval power. Remember that Kintargo only has about 12,000 people and the rest of the nation is sparsely populated.
So if the PCs were to lead an incursion into Cheliax with what forces they can muster, the most likely response from Cheliax is "ignore this, but make them pay for it when it comes to negotiating a treaty between Ravounel and Cheliax."
Abrogail is most likely entirely aware that Ravounel can do very little to hurt Cheliax (beyond "existing") without Cheliax first making a mistake.
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As soon as Ravounel is protected by the clause of the Kintargo Contract, Abrogail II becomes aware of it--that's why she sends a negotiator in book 6 instead of military forces--she knows that she cannot attack the country without voiding the entire Compact. The negotiations with Ravounel are damage control for a bad situation.
Knowing that, there probably isn't anything Abrogail II would do to violate the protections of the contract--she needs the power of Asmodeus to fight the Glorious Reclamation.
Actually, they might need another trip to hell or to their lawyer to determine what the Kintargo Contract considers a military force sufficient to trigger the clause, and how high the order has to come. If it only triggers if Abrogail sends troops in, they're hosed. If there's wiggle room there-If any sufficiently ambitious general or admiral could be coerced or tricked into invading Kintargo or Vyre then they have options.
If the party is on good terms with Captain Sargaeta, a Chelish Naval Captain, maybe he can void the entire Cheliax Compact by firing some ballistae at the Keep. (This seems unlikely, given how many possible failure points there are for such a poorly worded contract)
What I ended up doing about the Glorious Reclamation was that post campaign, at the behest of the party's oracle of Shelyn, the Silver Ravens hosted a peace conference in Kintargo between Abrogail and Cansellrion and tricked everyone into working together to destroy the Soul Anchor and had a wacky romantic comedy between the evil empress of Cheliax and the crusading paladin looking to oust her.
Would Abrogail be Tsundere or Yandere?
There are three ways to Kintargo for a land army, and four reasons why Cheliax won’t take any of them. They're all mentioned in part four of book three.
Assuming you used the Anvil of Unmaking that means that the Menador Gap will be unusable for years. Your players won’t be able to repair the damage in time to be of any use to the Glorious Reclamation. Rexus will know this, assuming he translated the Silver Raven documents. Any player can know this with a simple Knowledge Geography check. And any contractors they’ll hire will also be able to tell them the exact same thing since I doubt the players themselves will want to oversee the rebuilding of a checkpoint while they have a rebellion to run.
On top of that, the armies of Cheliax and the Glorious Reclamationare are focused on the east and gain no tactical advantage from making any moves towards the west.
I don’t know if it specifically mentioned anywhere in Hells Rebels, but Hell’s Vengeance says that the Chelish Navy has been tasked to defend the sea borders of the Empire, and once the Glorious Reclamation is over there going to be busy reestablishing a strong naval presence, so an armada won’t be sailing to the city anytime soon either.
Any Thrune Agents also have more important things to be doing right now than assassinate some power players in a city that the Empire can’t and won’t attack.
The town of Kantaria is also not strategically important to Cheliax, so they likely just let it be taken, again. Since it’s not part of Ravounel, Cheliax can just take it back at any time. This ultimately ends in a war between Ravounel and Cheliax, something that the Chelish government may actually want to because Ravounel simply does not have the military necessary to actually be a threat to the Empire. Assuming that the Silver Ravens could even hold Kantaria.
Kantaria is detailed in book two of Hell’s Vengeance, and there’s nothing there that could challenge a group of, I’m assuming, 14th level heroes.
Ultimately, trying to goad Cheliax into attacking is a waste of time and resources. It will ultimately make the diplomatic side of things worse for Ravounel and gives Cheliax more reason to attack Ravounel sometime later when it’s more advantageous too.
If you're the GM you should be up front with your players about the extent to which you are willing to consider exploring "the complete dissolution of Cheliax/the House of Thrune". Since that's a pretty big deviation from the metaplot, and if you're not willing to go all the way it's probably not worth spiraling Hell's Rebels off the path with that kind of tangent.
Assuming Cheliax does survive (and it looks likely to for the foreseeable future in canon defining books) it's in the best interest of Ravounel to not directly antagonize Cheliax in an official capacity. Ravounel is protected by geography, obscurity, and the Kintargo Compact but Cheliax can and will find a way around each of those if you make them sufficiently angry (Remember the hidden clause in the Kintargo Compact, as the PCs are using it, only prevents Hell and Cheliax from acting directly against Ravounel within its borders as defined by the document). Since Cheliax can and will use intermediaries, catspaws, independent contractors, etc. in order to make life difficult for the Ravouneli, it's best to maintain a somewhat cordial relationships with Cheliax (assuming Cheliax is going to continue to exist). Cheliax can and will employ the army of contract devils they need to figure out exactly how far they can push things here, so it's best not to encourage them.
What am I willing to do as a DM... interesting question.
I'm willing to let them choose to die nobly in a sacrifice play to help the GR win if they can successfully lure Cheliax into sending troops to crush them. It's a hell of an end to a campaign.
I think that if they don't do it right, Queen Abrogail II will send her letter from book 5 rather than try to crush them. I think that's more fun than it being sparked by a declaration of independence letter by a Kintargo mayor anyway.
I agree that rebuilding Menador Gap's keep and making a feint towards Kantaria isn't sufficient, as without a standing army, Kintargo doesn't stand a chance in a conventional war. The real military threat that Kintargo poses is probably the "scry and fry" potential of four 13th level PCs drawing on a lot of wealth, a 12th level cohort and an 11th level one, Lady Docur, Shensen, and whatever they can persuade Manticce Kaleeki and Vyre to contribute. Manticce owes them A LOT since I moved her to book five and they rescued her when she was kidnapped and taken to another plane by the King of Keys.
So the question becomes: what targets could a scry and fry campaign target that would provide aid and support to the Glorious Reclamation enough to tempt Queen Abrogail II to retaliate?
This is what Book Five says about Queen Abrogail II's knowledge of the Kintargo Contract.
Odexidie: “Asmodeus’s other devils are unaware of it. I altered the document internally and signed off on it, and Abrogail I took the secret to her grave.... As for the Prince of Darkness himself? I can guarantee he knows about it."
Narration: "Once [the new Kintargo mayor] is ratified [by the Board of Governors], she drafts a letter to be delivered to Egorian informing the government that, pursuant to the stipulations mentioned in the Kintargo Contract, permission for the military to enter Kintargo is not granted. House Thrune’s initial response to this is fury and indignation, but when they consult their copy of the Cheliax Covenant (which includes seeking out Odexidie for another copy of the Kintargo Contract) and confirm the implications with barristers both mortal and infernal, they realize their situation."
My reading is that neither the Queen nor her advisors know about the Kintargo Contract's provisions.
What sets it off: Unclear
Odexidie: “The Kintargo Contract is so worded that House Thrune or its allies, including the Church of Asmodeus, requires the consent of the city’s acting lord-mayor to deploy an army into the city or its holdings."
Hidden condition text: "However, if a properly ratified lord-mayor denies House Thrune permission to intercede, any direct military action against Kintargo or its associated holdings of Ravounel by Cheliax or the Church of Asmodeus terminates the Cheliax Covenant, removing Hell’s support of the nation of Cheliax."
Could be an army or could be any military action that could plausibly declared an act of war.
What "denies House Thrune permission to intercede" means: this could require them to receive notice. But I could see a DM ruling that Hell's strict wording doesn't require them to cite The Kintargo Contract in doing so. (It doesn't SAY that you have to.) And I could see a DM ruling that it is required.
So, if they don't know and if the PCs' Mayor denies House Thrune permission to intercede as part of their declaration of independence without citing the Kintargo Contract, I can see sufficient provocation of Queen Abrogail II leading her to take a sufficient military action without first checking what she can do under a document she doesn't have and which neither she nor her devils know of.
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One thing worth considering (as the GM, you can define this exactly) is "at what point does Abrogail Thrune hiring an assassin to murder someone in particular violate the Kintargo Compact".
Can the assassin operate in Ravounel? Or do they need to wait until the target steps outside of the borders (which they will do several times in book 6)?
But "4-6 people are really being a pain in my butt" is not the sort of problem you deploy troops to defeat, it's the sort of thing you get a small band of specialists for.
Like if Abrogail hires the Red Mantis does that violate the compact? If she hires some particularly talented assassin devils as independent contractors (rather than official representatives of Asmodeus) does that violate the compact? If she persuades Nidal to avenge the murder of Aluceda Zhol does that violate the compact?
Presumably once she becomes aware of the issue, she will get contract devils to let her know exactly where the line is and how much she can do without crossing it. We probably don't want to portray her as reckless or incompetent.
What sets it off: Unclear
Odexidie: “The Kintargo Contract is so worded that House Thrune or its allies, including the Church of Asmodeus, requires the consent of the city’s acting lord-mayor to deploy an army into the city or its holdings."Hidden condition text: "However, if a properly ratified lord-mayor denies House Thrune permission to intercede, any direct military action against Kintargo or its associated holdings of Ravounel by Cheliax or the Church of Asmodeus terminates the Cheliax Covenant, removing Hell’s support of the nation of Cheliax."
Odexidie's statement, strictly speaking, is that Thrune/allies/Church need the consent of the lord-mayor. It would break the contract if they were refused permission OR if they never got it at all. The hidden condition text reverses the burden, by requiring an active denial from the lord-mayor. A failure to respond doesn't terminate the contract.
At which point the troops would be legally in Kintargo because at the time they were sent, there was no legal mandate forbidding them.
The players can't screw over Thrune that way. And if they try to piss off Abrogail II to violate the terms? She can hire the Red Mantis assassins to eliminate the PCs. After all, the PCs are just adventurers. They're not official government members in all likelihood. And the Red Mantis are also not a part of Cheliax so hiring them to deal with the PCs is not a violating of terms.
The best thing to do is have Rexus and Laria explain how not only would a lot of innocent people risk getting killed by the PCs doing something like this, but that there are a number of ways for Thrune to eliminate the PCs without breaking the Kintargo Contract. In fact, it is in Kintargo's best interests for the PCs not to antagonize Thrune because there are no other adventurers of comparable skill and power in Kintargo and because their deaths would be a huge hit to the Silver Ravens' morale (and to Kintargo as a whole).
You can also point out, as the GM, you only have so much time. Invading Cheliax to do this is going outside the existing structure of the AP and is going to be a lot of work, work you need to do before the game can commence. The players would need to take time out from gaming for you to create, from whole cloth, this invading Cheliax adventure path. Are they willing to wait for months while you do this in RL?
It's quite likely that there is a Kintargo Contract Exception. Don't forget. Asmodeus has a huge interest in Cheliax remaining under his thumb. He allowed the Kintargo Contract, likely so that it could remind the Thrunes that their control is not absolute. And he also would know it would be very much in the interest of Cheliax's enemies to force the issue and use Kintargo to break Asmodeus's hold on Cheliax.
There is one other thing you can note: trying to negate Thrune's contract with Hell by using Kintargo as a sacrifice is a very Lawful Evil thing to do. And I could see Rexus and Laria both state outright that they will publicly denounce the PCs if they try and do this. If the party insists, they do just that. If the PCs murder them or mind control them? Then they have just had an alignment shift toward Evil.
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I've been looking through "Cheliax, The Infernal Empire" for ways to enable the players' choices without overwhelming me with prep or being totally infeasible.
Feasible targets...
To enable guerilla war:
Liberate Pezzack by defeating naval blockade and ending the strix raids to release revolutionaries from Galt, Andoran, Cheliax, and elsewhere. (More information to be found in Out of Anarchy scenario, Towns of the Inner Sea.)
Aid the giant insurgency in Thuryan by sending arms, transportation, and using diplomacy to get them rolling more actively than Andoran military advisor has. Complication: probably needs divination magic to become aware of this possibility.
Use strix allies from Ravounel forest to convince Ciricskree settlement of strix to attack Chelish weak points.
Military targets:
Stealing the books at the Archive of Redacted Histories on Warlock Island. This location is fully detailed in Hell's Vengeance in book 5 and would stop the plans of that AP cold. It would need divination magic for its existence and location, with more research on the Queen's plan in motion. But even the existence and location makes this an incredibly tempting target given that Kintargo used to have a cult of The Secret Order of Archivists. Vengeance!
Destroying Project Phlegethon on Shardstone Island: top secret super-soldier laboratory. Exposure of highly sensitive evidence to the world community is probably the only short-term benefit here, as there's no sign that super-soldiers have been utilized. It's very on theme for my party, however. More labor for me to DM: no map and I would have to level up the briefly-described occupants (bone devils and 8th level alchemist toughest CRs).
Attack Citadel Enferac in Hellmouth Gulf: This Order of the Gate citadel is militarily significant, as it's right on their SW border. There's a nice map in Council of Thieves 4 and CR 7 Signifers already available. More labor for me to DM: I'd need to come up with descriptions for various rooms, I'd need more NPCs, and the map isn't a battle map.
Sack Belde: This is the administrative capital of the Archduchy of Hellcoast, led by Paraduke Marcellus Thurivan (NE male human fighter 8), an ally of House Thrune who nominally rules Hellcoast. This is too much work for me to put together: no map, little information, an entire city. If they chose this, I'd probably narrate most of it and come up with a few encounters.
My table's PCs have decided to go the guerrilla warfare route with Cheliax as the way to best support the Glorious Reclamation. They're going to try to rescue and make propaganda out of the materials that they liberate from there.
They did a divination using their cohort warpriest of Irori, so they think they got this advice because of Irori's love of libraries as a form of self-improvement of the mind. Little do they know that
If they win this battle, it will change the course of history. The PCs really ought to ask more follow-up questions in divinations...
It's unlikely in any event that the Glorious Reclamation "wins" (as in "liberates all of Cheliax") the best they can manage really is "take and hold Westcrown". Our Hell's Vengeance game culminated in "the party betrays Thrune, since they liked their employers less than their ostensible enemies" and went into various stages of hiding. But even so we weren't really willing to dig into "the collapse of Cheliax" and so left it there.
With 2nd edition putting a pause on all manner of internal issues north of the inner sea, we were content to leave it as "Ravounel is an independent nation, recognized by Cheliax with no official beef with anybody" and "rebels hold Westcrown, but have reached a nonformal ceasefire with Cheliax, because the Whispering Tyrant threatens both parties more than they threaten each other."
So it might be worth pondering "what's going to happen when Tar Baphon wakes up"? Since this does definitely put the "good guys" in a hard place where they have to now worry about "the bad guys" and "the worse guys" and might not want to fight on two fronts.
So, the party has successfully defeated the guardians of the archive of redacted history, took their books back to various secret places in Kintargo, and killed most of the agents of Thrune that needed to burn those books to create a super-weapon against the Glorious Reclamation. Queen Abrogail II has sent the canonical letter to Kintargo's Town Council. This is the one with all the veiled threats, not the let's negotiate one:
We thank you for your … notification that all is well in beloved Kintargo. It does Us good to know at least one of Our cities has found peace in these trying times. After consulting with the church, the military, and Our trusted advisors, We have come to a similar conclusion: at this time, an official Chelish military presence in Kintargo is unwarranted. Should this change at any point in the future, know that We eagerly await an opportunity to bolster your fine city with Our troops, who remain ever vigilant and ready at a moment’s notice to come to Kintargo to provide such aid as We can. We shall be in contact soon to discuss further ramifications of Kintargo’s situation, and We sincerely hope that all Ravounel remains quiet and safe. Know that unrest still plagues Cheliax, and We cannot guarantee the safety and well-being of Kintargan or the regional citizens of Ravounel should they find themselves in areas of open conflict. Likewise, know that from this point forward, official transport of supplies and resources from Cheliax must needs be focused further on securing Our nation's security. We trust and hope you have enough to get by on your own for the immediate future, yet Our arms remain open should you require Our aid in the future.
We shall speak soon.
Her Infernal Majestrix Abrogail II of the Thrice-Damned House of Thrune, By the Might of Asmodeus, Queen and Empress of Cheliax, and of Its Other Realms and Territories
The Town Council doesn't know what the PCs did, but has called them in to give their input on why the councilors have received this letter. If the PCs come clean, what do you think their reaction should be? Would any be in favor of a plan of trying to lure Cheliax into an invasion to breach their deal with Hell and thus save Cheliax with the Glorious Reclamation?
Here's my town council:
* Jackdaw
* Baroness Belcara Jarvis
* Count Geoff Tanessen
* Carl the Sausage Vendor (surprise people's candidate)
* Shensen
* Morgar (the earliest Silver Raven outside the PCs)
* Vespasio Vespam (co-op owner, funded by Abadarans)
* Forvian Crowe (mercenary friend of Laria)
* Yellow Callie (ex-girlfriend of PC, Calistrian tiefling)
* Maercin Kelimber (dry goods and supplies store, Abadaran-funded)
* Ryk (runs mystery meat store in Redroof)
* Zachrin Vhast (Shelynite priest)
* Banker Andronicus (Abadaran priest)
* Laria Longroad (Bellflower Network,
* Drossa (secret agent of Lacunafex)
* Iylvana Desdoros (headmaster of Alabaster Academy)
* Marquel Aulorian (revolutionary poet)
Side note: I've ruled that the PCs' action in attacking the Secret Archive is not, technically, an act of war, as the Hellknights are an NGO, to the point that the Queen's agents can't even gain access to the facility.
They don't know it, but by stopping the Agents of Thrune from burning the books of the Archive of Redacted History, they put Cheliax in an awful bind. Cheliax' current situation is that they've lost Westcrown, the Citadel of Rivad is besieged, and are stuck in a stalemate in the Fields of Chelam. The PCs prevented Thrune's plan for breaking the siege and retaking Westcrown. Opening up a second front is a more difficult ask in this alternative set of circumstances.
Of course, nobody in town KNOWS the significance of what the PCs did yet, including the PCs. So, yes, a "sacrifice play" is pretty much how the town will see this before the PC who regularly gets a 50+ on their diplomacy rolls takes the stand.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned a whole lot so far as a disincentive is what's stopping Abrogail from signing a new contract with Asmodeus? Sure, it'll be one a whole lot less favorable to House Thrune both due to Abrogail lacking the infernal negotiating skill of her namesake and House Thrune being the far weaker negotiating partner this time around. But desperation and spite can make for a very dangerous combination, especially when devils are involved (who are happy to hand out hanging ropes to anyone who asks for one).
So what's stopping Abrogail from making a new contract along the lines of "as the current lawful ruler of Cheliax, I hereby consign its borders and everyone within it to be dragged down into Hell to suffer eternal damnation five minutes from now, in exchange for an army of devils appearing in Ravounel to slaughter every living creature within its borders?" Entire army of paladins from the Glorious Reclamation gone (although the devils may ultimately come to regret letting a whole army of paladins into Hell), Ravounel a devil-scoured wasteland, devils rise, everyone dies.
That is obviously the most ridiculous, over the top, worst-case scenario of course. But I don't see why that or a similarly scaled-down-to-sanity argument could be made by Abrogail to essentially hold a nuke up to her head and say "Look, if I'm going out, I'm taking you ALL with me!" And I'm not sure what the PCs could do to stop that, short of killing or dethroning Abrogail entirely which is unlikely to happen with the time and resources available to them. Which in turn leads to them needing to embrace the reality of needing to compromise and negotiate some sort of peace before Cheliax Civil War 2, This Time It's Personal begins in earnest. Or they insist on riding this bomb all the way down while yelling "yeehaw!", and you force-feed them the logical consequences of their actions, which is probably Ravounel is eventually sacked, a whole lot of people including most likely the PCs die, and Cheliax becomes a war-ravaged land that may or may not become a literal suburb of Hell.
I'd check their alignments. Anyone who isn't Good isn't going to be for it. If they are good, lawful characters will probably want to protect Kintargo's interests. Neutral characters can go either way, but there will need to be an incentive. Evil is so selfish, I can't imagine them going for it.
I'll start with that. I agree that the PCs would probably start with maybe one vote in the room and it would probably be Yellow Callie.
How does this sound?
Persuaded: Yellow Callie
Potentially Persuadable: Shensen (missed out on the grand adventure of the rebellion), Morgar (true believer underneath it all), Marquel (never fought so doesn't quite "get" what's at stake, loves the idea), Carl the Sausage Vendor (he owes the Silver Ravens his life)
Surprisingly difficult: Laria (a free Kintargo is a massive boon to the Bellflower Network), Zachrin Vhast (having worked in Nidal and Cheliax, he knows what a gift a free Ravounel is... but Shelynites love the epic grand gesture)
Tough to convince: Baroness Belcara Jarvis (a Cayden Cailean worshipper with a lot to lose as a noble), Iylvana Desdoros (subtly resisted curriculum takeover of the Academy, but this is way beyond what he's used to)
Flips to the majority: Ryk, Forvian Crowe, The Abadaran proxies (Maercin, Vespasio)
Most difficult: Count Geoff Tanessen (lots to lose, LE), Banker Andonicus (encouraging the breaking of a contract unknowingly sounds close to heresy), Drossa (Lacunafex plays the long game smartly), Jackdaw (PTSD)
This reads like a skill challenge to me, but I'm not sure how to do it.
This worked very well last night as a set piece to clarify the party's intentions (and minimize the amount of contingency planning I will have to do in book 6). I took the board's suggestions about using the negotiating mechanic from book 6 and added in a touch of the politicking mechanics from War for the Crown 1. It was a fun RP with mechanics that worked a lot better than the verbal duel system I experimented with back in book 2. And this was with a party that had a character that specialized in diplomacy (+40), another with sense motive (+35), and two characters covering all of the knowledges (+12 to +24, depending).
Basically, if you like 12 Angry Men, you'll like this set piece.
There was an initial scene where each PC was called to testify at the Town Council and was asked questions about foreign policy related to Cheliax due to Queen Abrogail II's seething letter. (This was the one in book 5 but sent at her own initiative, rather than in response to a letter from the lord-mayor.) So, the Town Council was interested to know what would spark this. The complication was that the PCs were trying to keep the Kintargo Contract a secret from them while still trying to move the Town Council towards an aggressive policy towards doing what they can to help the Glorious Reclamation. It soon became clear that at least two councilors suspected something was up.
Basically, after a short RP testifying, the player would pick a skill that fit what their RP was doing. I ruled that their performance would target a single person in the audience to start influencing them. So when the councilors questioned the newish PC who's backstory was that they were sent by the Glorious Reclamation to recruit the Silver Ravens into their fight, they presented on the state of the war and used Knowledge Geography. One PC did a peace through strength, tit-for-tat approach (Intimidate). Another used diplomacy, and got Yellow Callie to reveal that she was the lone vote in their favor. And they absolutely grilled the Monk, because clerics with experience with divinations know how to use lawyerly language to nail down answers and they were fishing to find out what had happened. They eventually got him to admit that yes, they had already hit a sensitive Cheliax target and no, they couldn't tell them more. (Hubbub! Gasp!) Then he was forced to admit that they had reported this to someone democratically elected, but wouldn't say who. It started getting bad, until the Lord-Mayor admitted that it was him, in the absence of clear instructions from the Town Council. (Hubbub! Gasp! Shocking!)
After the testifying, there was a Round 0 where each PC could do a discovery check to figure out how much persuasion the various councilors needed, using a Knowledge Local, Nobility, or Religion check. I ruled that each type of check would get you the starting position of all of councilors from that class (local for ordinary folks, nobility got you the four nobles, and religion would have gotten them Vhast and Andronicus had they tried it.) Or they could use Sense Motive to know one target's motives on this issue.
The subsystem came in during the politicking phase, as councilors and PCs circulated between votes. Each social round marked the period between successive votes. Each PC got one action to either persuade a councilor, aid another attempt, or use sense motive to do a discovery check to uncover a single councilor's motives and the best and worst skill to use to persuade them.
Each PC had to choose a tone:
Decide tone:
• Bluff or Linguistics is the deceptive approach or use of fuzzy language
• Diplomacy is the cooperative approach.
• Intimidate is the aggressive approach that sought to strong-arm the opponent.
• Knowledge is the rational approach using logic and the actual facts on the ground.
• Sense Motive is the concession approach to ID how much common ground you have and what they need. This is where horse-trading comes in.
• Perform was the emotional appeal of pure rhetoric and style of presentation.
Tactics:
• -4 circumstance penalty (stacking) for each repetitive choice by a single PC
• +4 circumstance if you use their preferred mode
• -4 circumstance penalty if you use their hated mode
Potentially Persuadable Councilors: DC 25 to vote with you; getting a DC 30 means they will also help with a +2 Aid Another on one target
Surprisingly Difficult to Persuade Councilors: get a DC 30 OR two DC 25 successes
Tough to Convince Councilors: get a DC 40 OR two DC 30 successes OR get three successes: DC 30, 25, AND a 20.
Councilors Who Start as Dedicated Opponents: DC 45 (or two 35s or 35/30/25). These councilors couldn't be unlocked until after the first social round due to the security of their coalition for negotiating a separate peace with Cheliax.
I had four councilors who didn't have the grit to decide on their own. They'd always vote with the majority and were immune to persuasion. But some of them could be flipped by councilors you COULD persuade and if you got to a majority, they'd switch to your side at the next vote. This was how I handled the four councilors that hadn't had a lot of screen time and who I didn't want to spend valuable time fleshing out.
What I liked about this system:
It actually worked to create an interesting challenge that the players had to work together to solve. I wanted to ensure that this event wasn't dominated by a single player with a high skill ability supported by aid another attempts that couldn't fail by the other one. The number of attempts, the high DCs, and the stacking penalties ensured that. The players reserved their best skills for high-priority targets and only repeated their use once due to fear of the penalties. The PCs focused on knowledge skills that weren't high enough to get to DC 40+ were able to partially persuade councilors over multiple rounds. [And there was a nice RP moment where Baroness Jarvis, having weathered multiple intimidate attempts, simply gave in when it was followed by a diplomacy check.]
It somewhat simulated actual back room politics. You had choice, but there was some structure on who you could persuade initially. You could get free votes if you managed to persuade a particular person (e.g. persuading Laria got you Crowe) or if you hit the benchmark of a majority vote. And discovery checks still mattered to help you figure out how to deal with a road block and better understand why councilors were acting like they were.
You found out more about the town councilors each social round. Yellow Callie, a Calistrian thorn in the side of the PCs, was the first one to vote for their plan because it entailed getting back at those who've done you wrong. Zachrin Vhast, having served in Nidal and Cheliax, knows what a gift a free Ravounel is. Ilyvana Desdoros, because he was moved by logic, forced the PC to answer why a bunch of alternatives were not preferable to their plan. While a free Kintargo would be as much of a boon as a free Andoran was to the Bellflower Network, the possibility of being aggressively abolitionist was tempting. And Count Tanessen was able to put the PCs on the spot by pointing out that he was elected to ensure the rights of the nobles and the servants they employ. So, when the PCs pointed out that he'd already gotten benefits from them to have him serve on the Board of Governors, he said he was representing his constituents. He was able to extract a commitment from the PC that best represented the ordinary people of Old Kintargo that he would actively, personally, publicly, and enthusiastically support the nobles getting their due in the country of Ravounel.
And before the final social round, when just Jackdaw, Banker Andronicus, and Baroness Jarvis were left, I had the room call on them to explain why they were voting (rather like the last act of Twelve Angry Men). That revealed a lot: Jackdaw spoke movingly about her personal experiences with the costs of losing against Cheliax (decades tortured by a lich). Banker Andronicus gave a rather incoherent speech that hinted that he was hiding a reason why an ally was so intransigent.
Finally, what was also nice was the chance to remind the players that social threats don't necessarily depend on the NPC being of their level. For example, in the final social round, Banker Andronicus revealed to the PCs why one of their early supporters was trying to thwart them. He was the only NPC that knew of the Kintargo Contract. He regarded trying to manipulate a nation into unknowingly breaking a contract as close to heresy under Abadar. Using the Kintargo Contract as a sword rather than a shield the undermined of the rule of law to him. How did he know about the Kintargo Contract? Abardarn priest Mhelrem Gesteliel (leveled up to 7th level by this point) got curious as to why the PCs were going to every village in the nation to nail down their support. Weeks of divination and commune spells to the servants of the god of law and civilization got him the information. Shelynite priest Zachrin Vhast knew that the party had already struck a target in Cheliax through similar means. If you give a mid-level PC time and access to an organization's resources, they can be a challenge.
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So, in my mind, if the Silver Ravens manage to trick Cheliax into triggering the Kintargo Contract:
Asmodeous immediately summons Abrogail Thrune II and offers her the same deal as her mother, only less favorable and giving his church even more power. In return, he offers even more extensive aid to Cheliax. Abby has no choice but to accept.
The Glorious Reclamation still fails due to either the events of Hell's Vengeance and/or their own incompetence. The newly empowered diabolic forces if House Thrune make this inevitability happen even quicker. A short but savagely bloody civil war breaks out across Cheliax, but House Thrune swiftly consolidates their power.
Cheliax soon marches on Ravounel and razes Kintargo to the ground as an example to the rest of the empire. Very gruesome things happen in Westcrown as well. Contested territories and cities such as Pezzack are also brought back into the fold, as the Church of Asmodeus gains before unseen control. Most religions that were previously tolerated are now banned, and Cheliax truly becomes Hell on Golarion...
Is this fun? With the right group, sure, but others would find it frustrating to see their efforts undone. While this is absolutely how I'd run this - I would make it pretty clear that breaking the Chelish Covenant is a bad idea. Nothing prevents Abrogail from making a second, worse contact from a position of greater desperation than even her grandmother.
So why doesn't Abrogail break the contract if it'd lead to her consolidation of Cheliax? The cost is simply too high. She'd be giving incredible power to the Church of Asmodeus, effectively going from their master to a slave with a crown. But when faced with her own survival and the survival of Infernal Cheliax, the calculus will shift.
It's a tough needle to thread. I want to play Cheliax as smart as possible, so I take your point. But I also don't want to disempower my players after years at the table, which is kind of what the canonical "all according to my plan" ending of Hell's Rebels does and which is how an automatic loss by DM fiat would definitely be received at my table. (Well, except for the player who DM'd me in Age of Worms, he'd be fine with a dark ending.)
I think my explanation to the players about why Queen Abrogail II didn't do what you described is, quite simply, hubris. She's been bullying her pit fiend general, after all. She's been raised to believe she's superior to everyone. By the time she decides to go this route, there's no time left to get a deal where she isn't a slave and being humiliatingly subordinate to the Church of Asmodeus. And there's nothing in her character that I've read that indicates she'd ever accept that. A lot of wars are lost by leaders who can't accept the situation on the ground.
Anyway, I think the players will feel they earned their victory. They'll have negotiated peace with Nidal. They'll have to won a fleet battle against 8 squadrons of Chelish ships despite having no formal navy. They'll have defeated an undead horde assaulting Menador Gap directed by the sole survivor of the Hell's Vengeance crew: Nyctessa as a 14th level necromancer. Then they face a souped-up Haunting of Kintargo and Barzillai's new form as a final boss.
I mean, it comes down to what makes sense for your table. Don't do something that's unfun. From a narrative perspective, it's rewarding to defeat the evil empire. Really, that's one of the criticisms about the AP (that I don't personally agree with) - do the PCs deserve an unconditional win? Rule zero is everyone is having fun. So this isn't a put-down so much as how I'd run it. Obviously, you'll have to rewrite anything involving Cheliax in the future. Maybe create a remnant faction of loyalists or something.
Following the truth of the setting is more important to me than hitting the narrative beats. My players also know that's how I run things. I don't fudge plotlines any more than I fudge dice rolls.
Abrogail is first and foremost a ruthless survivor. Hubris, absolutely, but egomaniacal instinct alone doesn't keep an authoritarian on the throne. When her options are: admit defeat or make terrible concessions, she'll take the consequences and keep fighting.
A better ploy would be to figure out why Asmodeus wouldn't offer her the bargain. Maybe he's disappointed with the failures of Cheliax or even has a longer term plan in play (though that goes against the sentiment of the unconditional PC victory).
This is all me thinking out loud, btw. Personally, I love the idea of Archdevils hedging their bets, though it's kind of unclear what Mephistopheles really has to gain regardless of the outcome of Barzillai's plan. But that's just my cup of tea.
A better ploy would be to figure out why Asmodeus wouldn't offer her the bargain. Maybe he's disappointed with the failures of Cheliax or even has a longer term plan in play (though that goes against the sentiment of the unconditional PC victory).
That's a good point.
It's possible that Asmodeus simply decides that Cheliax' performance has been too embarrassing to tolerate any longer. They've lost a lot of colonies over the years and now they're losing a civil war. It may end up undermining his reputation with mortals more than the activation of the Kintargo Contract. Indeed, it could be spun to have been as much of an "out clause" for Hell as it was for Queen Abrogail I. Walking out after an egregious public mistake by the crown is an excellent way to disavow responsibility.
Quick question about the ending of the compact:
Do the devils go home to Hell or are they free to do whatever they want on the material plane until they leave or die? The military impact of devils running amok vs. simply being sent home by the end of the contract is pretty immense. Is there canon information on this topic, or is it unknown?
Having them stay would be interesting. THAT could be Asmodeus' contingency plan: Hell's version of a Worldwound. The devils at the top of the hierarchy in Cheliax have been given a plan for this scenario and they are expected to execute it. Such a plan would also explain why Queen Abrogail II is on her own.
Some lesser devils would certainly rip mortals to shreds before doing so. Some other lesser devils might try to bargain with Chelaxians nearby for their continued allegiance, for quick influence before heading out.
But I would imagine that most would immediately rally to a particular location and begin enacting whatever plan for increasing their numbers and influence on this plane to create a "Hell on Golarion".
I like this idea. The players have agency: they save the souls of the citizens of Cheliax and liberate its people. But there are interesting consequences for their decision beyond whether they can successfully avoid getting squished by the remnants of the military forces sent to destroy Kintargo by the Queen.
Having them stay would be interesting. THAT could be Asmodeus' contingency plan: Hell's version of a Worldwound. The devils at the top of the hierarchy in Cheliax have been given a plan for this scenario and they are expected to execute it. Such a plan would also explain why Queen Abrogail II is on her own.
Some lesser devils would certainly rip mortals to shreds before doing so. Some other lesser devils might try to bargain with Chelaxians nearby for their continued allegiance, for quick influence before heading out.
But I would imagine that most would immediately rally to a particular location and begin enacting whatever plan for increasing their numbers and influence on this plane to create a "Hell on Golarion".
I like this idea. The players have agency: they save the souls of the citizens of Cheliax and liberate its people. But there are interesting consequences for their decision beyond whether they can successfully avoid getting squished by the remnants of the military forces sent to destroy Kintargo by the Queen.
The Inferno Gate is basically a Worldwound on a smaller scale with devils instead of demons.
But devils tend to be too lawful to just run amuck.
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Thus far, this alternate path has worked out quite well. It's been a bit more of a sandbox than my players have been used to--they tend to prefer guided choice mode. Since the Town Council challenge, they have:
* negotiated a workable peace treaty with Nidal
* air-dropped propaganda on the True History of Thrune in Belde
* air-dropped propaganda "House Thrune's Just Not Into Hellknights: A History" over Citadel Rivad
* stole the minor armada circling outside Pezzack
* taught the Silver Ravens' mode of revolutionary organizing to the White Thistles in Pezzack and "handled" the Galtan and Loyalist factions of Pezzack
* started building their navy and army
They've been using their divination magic to track the Egorian response to their actions thus far. Liberating the Secret Archive has led
Last night, they chose between three options:
* Storm Citadel Enferac (secure the coastal land border, take out the magical artillery of the Hellknights, get high-level magic loot)
* Recruit the mountain strix to engage in guerilla war (this would be trivial to accomplish for their party face, especially if they think to bring along Ravounel's forest strix)
* Stop Project Phlegethon's
The Glorious Reclamation has secured Westcrown and is on to Egorian next. They would have preferred Ravounel send their little navy and a few troops to aid that battle or the stalemate in the Fields of Chelam. (Which is a hilarious request indicating their allegiance to traditional military strategy and how little they think about Ravounel.) Failing that, they would have respected Ravounel taking Citadel Enferac or eventually appreciated the effect on supply lines of an aerial guerrilla war by the strix. (Although they would NOT have liked the fact that Ravounel would have had to recognize the Mountain Strix as an independent nation.) They'll be enraged by Ravounel's decision to do... none of those things.
They're on to Project Phlegethon, because their divinations to Irori indicated that destroying that facility will be the most likely to cause an extreme emotional reaction in Egorian. They don't know why:
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For Project Phlegethon, I had the players narrate how they infiltrated the facility, which went deep into the ground from its surface level, with the bottom four levels so spaced apart that one can dimension door only to an adjacent level. I used some Starfinder maps for the science fell. I narrated their descent through the facility, using the fire exit stairs and golem-automated lift. We had files and archives levels; labs and advanced labs levels; kitchen, cafeteria, and toilets level; interspersed barracks, training facilities, armories; re-education chambers, medical experimental surgery chambers, and loads of cell blocks of tormented Chelish ex-soldiers.
For these floors, they just had to have a plausible plan to deal with regular soldiers, tiefling medical staff, half-fiends, and various devils--sire devils, bone devils, and imps. Because none of these are a match for a 14th level party.
The tenth floor had the guards and wards, with roving erinyes guards and haunts from the decades of trauma from the facility. Erinyes work well due to their true seeing and teleport. This is where a surgery haunted by ectoplasmic miasma was home to 4 mimic failed apotheosis. Cell block D's prisoners created a haunt of ghastly whispers. A rehabilitation facility (with strange machinery, magic lantern projection, and religious artifacts to damn the innocent featured a symphony of the forever screams haunt.
The last floor was where the final fight with Project Director Ghislaine Thrune, ghast alchemist 14, was. They find her gloating over the creation of a seige necrocraft. Hidden in the chamber's pods were two profaned paladin undead troops with the fiendish type. (So... not really a success with a super soldier program in quite the way that the Queen envisioned.) As soon as a living creature enters the chamber, it sets off a gruesome gurney haunt, but also a helpful haunt of the paladin they didn't break, a swordsman betrayed haunt that attacks Ghislaine exclusively.
Once they defeated the final encounter, the Fall of the House of Haunts activates: "Sometimes a location is so infested with haunts that the facility itself rebels in a final desperate act. In these rare circumstances, the vengeful forces within heave forth in a final cataclysmic effort to destroy those who discover their unsettling secrets. You must run or be buried alive as the very earth rebels against the facility, which begins to crumble into a gaping hellmouth."
A fitting end to the facility, but also one that incredibly frustrates the Queen, who sends Admiral Druvalia Thrune with 8 squadrons (47 ships, incl. the flagship Abrogail's Fury) to destroy Kintargo and end their guerrilla warfare. This leaves Corentyn vulnerable, but still defended with a skeleton crew.
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With regular divination magic being cast to determine the Queen's response, the party had ample warning of the Corentyn fleet being sent to destroy Kintargo. The chief stumbling blocks were teaching them the rules of fleet combat, the PCs having no ranks in Profession: Sailor (the skill that drives fleet combat), and forming their own fleet. Fortunately, I had anticipated the former problem and had them running a two on two fleet practice battle with their Pezzack and Kintargo ships to showcase the system before Project Phlegethon.
For the putting together the fleets, I just used the fleet from the fleet battle in Skull and Shackles for the Corentyn fleet. I made Admiral Druvalia Thrune a 17th level swashbuckler with PC wealth. On her flag ship, I had a loyalty officer (Lazzero from Hell's Vengeance leveled up to 15th level), 4 minor arcane casters from the NPC codex (to target the monk with magic missiles), and a 19th level Abadaran grey paladin who was great flavor. He was trying to arrest them for treason and undermining the rule of law across the Inner Sea through supporting a civil war with their guerrilla warfare and their own insurrection. "You have already achieved the good you sought. Are you afraid that a jury of your peers will not find your actions justified?"
For the PCs, they used their connections with the Vashnarstills, Captain Sargaeta, and the reformed Court in Vyre to build their fleet. There's a some generic merchant and pirate captains to populate the PC fleet. If you have a dedicated face PC, they will be a powerful admiral despite losing initiative for every round. Because the number of squadrons you can command is boosted by your charisma bonus! My PCs figured it out and put the Magical Child Vigilante 14 in as their admiral and ended up with 11 squadrons, which were each rather small due to NPC captains. They had the Pezzack warship Reprisal as their flagship with the remainder of the warships from Pezzack forming their best squadron (Pirates of Pezzack). Had they gone with one of the NPC candidates for Admiral, their fleet would have had half as many squadrons.
The thing that made this interesting was that no matter the result of the fleet battle, the final battle is always a boarding action between the flagships under these rules. I didn't want to gamble my campaign's end on a subsystem the players weren't familiar with or built for. Why no teleport to the flagship battle right off the bat? I gave two reasons--with both the origin and destination points in motion teleport wouldn't work... or because Besmara dislikes it when boarding actions aren't done after a ripping fleet battle and prevents it.
The strategy of the PCs at my table--which could be very effective for yours--was to heavily invest in "significant character" bonuses to make up for their indifferent Profession: sailor scores. In addition to the PCs, they had: Baron Sendi Vashnarstill, Captain Cassius Sargaeta, his first mate Elia Nones, an ex-PC who's the Mayor and his cohort, Lady Docur (who comes out of the shadows now that we're at the decisive moment), Tayocet Tiora, Morgar (yes, from the first book!), Octavio Sabinus, and the Lillend they rescued from Temple of Asmodeus fight. They also had the Acisazi elves and some Irim elves as a significant "character". (They had completed a mutual defense pact with Irim.) I was a little generous in giving eligibility for significant character status.
BUT the upside was that losing any squadron led to the loss of the significant character associated with it. They had to rally to protect the squadron with their mayor on it. They had to spend my table's version of hero points to reverse the mutiny of Morgar's squadron (and he came out a hero because of it). End result was they lost 3 squadrons (12 ships and a couple hundred sailors/troops) and Octavio, Tayocet, and the Lillend. To mirror those stakes, each time they took out an enemy squadron, the other side lost a high level character from the final fight. I used the NPC Codex for this: a 16th level water druid, an 18th level monk from the Menador Mountain Ascetics, an arcane archer tournament champion, and a 13th level sorcerer. These were good rewards for going through the fleet battle: making the final fight manageable.
Their second major tactic was to have a lot of their significant characters take Vengeance, which kicks in with attack and morale bonuses for the battle phase in which a ship sinks in a round. They had some nasty surprises when for the Chelish armada when that kicked in the first time.
The PCs' final major tactic was to lure the Chelish armada into violating their coastal waters, which they accomplished with a good amount of magical taunting and the fact that the other side didn't know the consequences of doing so. I narrated the loss of the devils (discussed above). The fleet battle impact was that the Chelish squadrons were stunned as they dealt with the loss of their devils, their losses from the revenge killings by the devils, and destroying the devils that couldn't teleport out.
By the way: not acting on the first round of fleet combat is a massive penalty. You don't need to add anything to that.
The fleet battle is fairly simple to run, even at these sizes, and relatively quick--about 2-3 hours. The final flagship battle was about as long. They came back heroes and we RP'd an impromptu Victory Day celebration.
I am curious about quite a few things.
like:
* characters' builds?
* use of third party stuff?
* use of optional rules?
* house rules?
as well as changes to background/canon/setting stuff.
and I have the feeling you were so focused one a few things that you stopped seeing the bigger picture and some consequences the PC actions should have / should have had.
To answer your questions:
Unchained Monk (flying kick), Arcanist, Magus, Magical Child Vigilante (party face).
No third party.
Automatic Bonus Progression rules, rebellion mechanic, obviously naval combat rules from the Shackles AP.
House rules: one official Paizo plot card per level (use contingent on fitting the card content, combat uses mostly a re-roll or stabilizing, non-combat uses include success on plot-adjacent stuff or advances the party to the plot).
I probably made a bad call on extending the significant character bonus more liberally to the named NPCs.
Changes to background/canon/setting... none at start. I did occasionally reference the Hell's Vengeance iconics as the party in the other AP to set up their book 5/6 appearance. But I play with the idea that the players should be able to have their actions change the world if they're going to commit to this story for several years.
By all means, critique away for those other tables considering going down this path.
Ability scores generation?
ABP, did you adjust the treasures/loot?
As for the rest...
* HV mention that Nidal close its borders early on in the conflict, so interactions with them should be minimal, aside for Nidaleses out of the country.
* you kinda dodged the question of the PCs' alignments and actions that could alter them.
* surprised they didn't learn of the yearly ritual to maintain the contract with Hell, which could have been an easier and less dangerous way to break it.
* So, they messed with Vyre, shouldn't Norgorber have a reason to impede them? (you know, consequences of the PCs' action)
Ability scores generation?
Twenty point buy
ABP, did you adjust the treasures/loot?
Yep. I simply cut anything covered by ABP, leaving behind quite a few masterwork weapons, armor, etc. I also converted some of the superior NPCs to ABP, which cut down the amount of loot further. I did a lot of adding to this AP, however, so that might have increased the treasure too much.
As for the rest...
* HV mention that Nidal close its borders early on in the conflict, so interactions with them should be minimal, aside for Nidaleses out of the country.
One of the PCs was a refugee from that country who developed a heretical cult of Doubralism (a.k.a. Zon Kuthon Reform), so the Shadowsquare cathedral and Aluceda Zhol were major points at our table. When the party formed Ravounel, the Nidalese sent negotiators for peace, mutual defense, and recognition. (Basically, given how my table went, I adapted the book six Cheliax negotiations to Nidal.) After my table defeated the Armada and House Thrune began to lose the civil war, Nidal enacted its escape protocols: closed borders under all circumstances and start going wherever it is they go.
* you kinda dodged the question of the PCs' alignments and actions that could alter them.
See post dated 4/7. Most of the easiest to convince on the town council were in the Chaotic good/neutral alignments, while most of the harder ones were a flavor of Lawful or straight Neutral.
* surprised they didn't learn of the yearly ritual to maintain the contract with Hell, which could have been an easier and less dangerous way to break it.
They did... too late to stop it immediately. (I periodically had them get rumors from the Motherland as a way of keeping a timeline in HV.) They had the option to go there and try to destroy the place to prevent Thrune from doing the sacrifice next year or ever again. But then they used divination by a warpriest of Irori, whose minions are clearly going to prefer the Archive of Redacted History mission. (If they'd used divination to a different god's minions, they might have gotten a different answer.) And the Archives is similarly crucial militarily--it's key to the doomsday weapon that would otherwise destroy the Glorious Reclamation army besieging that Hellknight citadel and protecting Westcrown.
* So, they messed with Vyre, shouldn't Norgorber have a reason to impede them? (you know, consequences of the PCs' action)
I did a whole thing on that: kidnapping the Queen of Delights, followed by a prison invasion, followed by a planar dungeon crawl with the Secret Shade. See this thread for details. Any more than that and I felt that the story would have diverged too far from its central plotline. I did nod in that direction with some plot narration. One PC directed the Milanites of Kintargo to free Vyre from the chains of crime, corruption, and addition sponsored by the Norgorberites. And they're a curiously stubborn problem for the Vigilante PC's networks for two decades. They'll always be there as a source of narrative villainy if I do a sequel.
Plus, the artwork for the cultists of Norgorber in this AP made it such that they were not taken very seriously by my players. The artwork looks like they're clown barbers. (It looks like they did Norgober better in the other APs though.)
Treasure: partly sound like the usual mixing of a place treasury/funds with the PCs piggy bank.
Nidal: their borders should have been closed anyway, and any major dealings are made with the Umbral Court, not easy with closed borders and and heretical cult.
Alignments: depend if they talked before or after their actions, and good rolls should not help with alignment shifts, the rolls help with normal people, nor reality itself or the gods.
Vyre/Norgorber: the looking like clowns fit with the place. and Norgorber is the patron god of quite a few things, killing, stealing, destroying reputations, etc.
for the rest, they might still have to deal with a certain Thrune, not sure if they will be welcomed in Hell.