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Pool of Filth et al,
Please do not invent a nickname for me.
My point was that the ubiquity of D&D does not mean that other games are inherently lesser. When we talk about the hobby as if it is D&D primarily and everything else is “indie” or “small” we do the hobby as a whole a disservice.
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It's not the systems that are all doing the same thing, it's the players that are all doing the same thing regardless of system. Which is rather my point. I can watch players move from dnd to wod to palladium and they are basically doing the same thing, the same style of play. It doesn't have to be that way. There are multiple ways to play even within the same system.
I’ve played with a lot of different World of Darkness groups and I have never seen WoD players play a chronicle like it were a D&D game.
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That isn’t quite agreement with what was said though. TOZ is saying that there are some players who started with D&D who don’t move beyond the style of play D&D introduced them to. You are saying that predominantly players who started with D&D cannot move beyond the style of play that D&D introduced them to.
They are very different statements.
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I started with D&D way back in the day.
Was kind of 'forced' into a migration to WoD because of the irony that a 'vampire' game was SOMEHOW more acceptable in the areas where I served in the military and when I got back home.
Along the way played a bit of Mechwarrior, the TTRPG (2nd ed.), before falling into a blend of WEG Star Wars d6 (long after the game license had moved onwards) and WoD LARPing.
Somewhere in there were a few stints with MUDs and MUXs and the like.
Pathfinder (1st) was a relatively late 'add' (about 2010 or so) when our co-GMs for our 'international group' (we met over Ventrillo and later TeamSpeak before migrating to Discord much later) decided to run a 'combo game' using Kingmaker, Mythic Adventures, and the ARG in the same game and setting. The Power curve was insane.
The big thing I've discovered is that there are people who LOVE math and see game-play and character design as a challenge.
Conversely, there are others (and I've found myself gravitating to this school of thought for years now) that want to 'tell a story' with their character as a protagonist in the story -- not as the key protagonist, but as part of a shared story environment.
As a result of the latter, I've also discovered that while the rules can be bent/mangled/tweaked to produce desired end results, it's better to (imo) minimize that and try to work within reasonable guidelines -- too much strain on credulity ruins the play experience for me.
For me, playing Pathfinder (or Starfinder) =/= playing Mathfinder.
For others, Mathfinder is the game they signed up for, and that's just as valid and acceptable as my play.
Along the way played a bit of Mechwarrior, the TTRPG (2nd ed.),
How was that? I have always wanted to do some Mechwarrior/Battletech TTRPG but have never found a group.
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I'm on the Magpie Games Discord... y'know, the company that just completed a $9.5M Kickstarter with over 81,000 backers for a licensed TTRPG based on Avatar: The Last Airbender.
Their game Avatar Legends will be Powered by the Apocalypse (PbtA).
Avatar Legends is going to the be the first TTRPG for a LOT of these players. This means their TTRPG introduction will be by an RPG that has some fundamentally different baseline assumptions of play than the D&D family of games.
I think it's going to be very interesting to see what impact a huge influx of new TTRPGers who don't have a background in D&D is going to have in overall gaming circles over the next few years.
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No because that is not at all what I am saying, nor the portion of the conversation I am speaking to. I am saying that predominantly players can accept different styles of play in different games and can easily adjust - but that there are SOME players who are in a D&D encounter grind play mode from which they cannot escape.
They are by and large an exception and not the rule.
Also - no one brought up computer games.
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How was that? I have always wanted to do some Mechwarrior/Battletech TTRPG but have never found a group.
Along the way played a bit of Mechwarrior, the TTRPG (2nd ed.),
Shipboard group when I was in the Navy, we did a small merc group that played through Solaris VII and eventually through Unbound.
We also played other things, but that's the most memorable and 'sticking' of the lot.
Protip: Paranoia is NOT a good game to be playing when one is in the military, and not because of any funny looks one might get from one's fellow players. At least, when I was in during the early '90's.
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RPG systems are indeed a journey, and I think it's time that my own journey parts ways with Paizo at this juncture.
If you're looking to find me, I'm on Twitter.
If you would like to drop me an email, I'm at mike dot ferdinando at gmail dot com.
You can also find me on The Gauntlet Forums and on various Discords including:
Magpie Games
Trophy RPG
Exalted Funeral
Best of luck to everyone, and I hope that our paths cross again!
Safe travels Haladir.
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I think I know where you are coming from. I stepped away from things around the time PF2 got underway. I now mostly just check/lurk in a handful of threads here (including this one.) Before I knew you were departing I was reading one of your posts in another thread and thinking how interesting your comments are. I really enjoyed hearing your perspective on things. You will be missed, and I will try to check some of the links you posted.
Please stop by every once in a while and say hello!
PS A fellow NY'er! I'm over in Westchester, not exactly close, but only a few hours away.
EDIT: Wow! A lot more going on then I had realized. Still catching up...
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I'm guessing it would take quite a bit to get Haladir back. It was classy to not crosspost his reasoning, but I think it's worth sharing. Those of us on these forums, even in the General areas, deserve to know what's happening:
Too bad Haladir is gone, i'll miss ya bud.
Had my first Monster of the Week game last night. Went pretty well. I think the GM was really appreciative of me getting into the spirit. The other players kept looking at their character sheet for ideas on what their character could do. I also tried to break them of the habit of assuming the person with a skill and/or high attribute does the rolling for all of something like investigating, fighting, or even talking to NPCs.
So far, PbtA is working like a rules lite version of Call of Cthulhu for us. Players try things based on the GM description, when you fail you get experience to trade later for skill upgrades. The rest is essentially a back and fourth narrative between GM and players. I got one player to really dive into the hook between our characters, the others will take some work. They kind of seem lost in the theme of their playbooks and are not gelling with the group just yet. I think part of that was we were missing myself in the first session, and then another player in session 2. The hooks work best when everyone is there to experience them.
I'll check back with more comments as the sessions roll on.
Bladerunner TTRPG in the works. Anybody got experience with "Year Zero Engine" system?
The rules of the game are based on the acclaimed Year Zero Engine, used in award-winning games such as the ALIEN RPG, Tales From the Loop and Forbidden Lands, but further developed and uniquely tailored for Blade Runner.
I love the Alien RPG and am very much looking forward to Bladerunner. Free League has been hitting it out of the park lately.
I love the Alien RPG and am very much looking forward to Bladerunner. Free League has been hitting it out of the park lately.
Could you expand a bit on the system and maybe tell us a little about your experience with how it works and what you like?
You roll pools of d6 to perform a task, like firing your pistol at a xenomorph. For this example, you get a number of dice for your agility attribute (1-5 typically), plus a number of dice for your ranged combat skill score (0-5 typically), and the difficulty of the task may add or subtract some dice. If you currently have stress you add a number of dice equal to your stress score to the roll. Rolling a 6 results in a success, while rolling more than one 6 can make it a better success (more damage, or other benefits depending on the skill in use, roller's choice of what happens). However, rolling a 1 on a stress die results in something bad happening (with a firearm it means emptying your magazine) and you need to make a panic roll. Panic rolls can result in anything from nothing special happening to your PC going catatonic (you'd have to have a very high stress level and roll poorly for this to happen) and many other things in between.
I like it as a GM as it is far easier to run than other games I have played, and there are times when I don't really do anything at the table but watch my players do their own thing. The game specifically tells you to only roll (or have a player roll) when the result truly matters, which makes each roll of the dice super important and I find everyone leaning in as the dice hit the table to see the results (which are immediately known to everyone as they can see if there are any 6s or 1s rolled).
The presentation of the books and world are fantastic. I really like the distinction between cinematic mode and campaign mode as well.
It can be very unforgiving to players, though admittedly my group has only played cinematic mode so far (and you likely know how well the average human fares in an Alien movie). Cinematic mode can be off-putting for those who absolutely do not want any PvP in their RPGs, though.
You roll pools of d6 to perform a task, like firing your pistol at a xenomorph. For this example, you get a number of dice for your agility attribute (1-5 typically), plus a number of dice for your ranged combat skill score (0-5 typically), and the difficulty of the task may add or subtract some dice. If you currently have stress you add a number of dice equal to your stress score to the roll. Rolling a 6 results in a success, while rolling more than one 6 can make it a better success (more damage, or other benefits depending on the skill in use, roller's choice of what happens). However, rolling a 1 on a stress die results in something bad happening (with a firearm it means emptying your magazine) and you need to make a panic roll. Panic rolls can result in anything from nothing special happening to your PC going catatonic (you'd have to have a very high stress level and roll poorly for this to happen) and many other things in between.
I like it as a GM as it is far easier to run than other games I have played, and there are times when I don't really do anything at the table but watch my players do their own thing. The game specifically tells you to only roll (or have a player roll) when the result truly matters, which makes each roll of the dice super important and I find everyone leaning in as the dice hit the table to see the results (which are immediately known to everyone as they can see if there are any 6s or 1s rolled).
The presentation of the books and world are fantastic. I really like the distinction between cinematic mode and campaign mode as well.
It can be very unforgiving to players, though admittedly my group has only played cinematic mode so far (and you likely know how well the average human fares in an Alien movie). Cinematic mode can be off-putting for those who absolutely do not want any PvP in their RPGs, though.
What is the difference between cinematic mode and whatever else? What about cinematic mode promotes PvP?
only roll (or have a player roll) when the result truly matters,Shouldn't this be all rpgs? Do people really need this to be explicitly stated? Do I need to worry about explicitly stating such obvious things in my system?
It does help if the rules back it up. In an RPG using a variant on this system, Forbidden Lands, the same suggestion is made but the rules on survival and travelling involve many, many rolls; combat can involve a lot of rolls too.
only roll (or have a player roll) when the result truly matters,Shouldn't this be all rpgs? Do people really need this to be explicitly stated? Do I need to worry about explicitly stating such obvious things in my system?
Should? Perhaps, but it very much isn't. An example would be in Pathfinder making a perception check to find something hidden in a room. In Alien if the player states they search the room they would simply find it, even if it is hidden. Rolls are pretty much only made when a PC/NPC could be hurt or their agenda delayed/thwarted.
What is the difference between cinematic mode and whatever else? What about cinematic mode promotes PvP?
Cinematic mode is basically like playing through an Alien movie. The PCs are premade and tailored to the adventure. Alien uses a buddy/rival system and these PCs will have those set as part of their character. One character may be a corporate liaison (think Burke from Aliens) who is working towards an agenda that is completely at odds with everyone else. One PC might be an android, unknown to everyone else (like Ash). Agendas can be very simple (survive) to complex (return scientific sample back to home base) and they differ from chapter to chapter. There are typically three chapters per scenario. Chapter one usually is the setup (normally nothing dangerous happens here), chapter two there is some kind of twist or reveal, and chapter three everything goes to hell. In my experience the chapters are shorter as you play, with chapter three usually being just a few minutes of in-game time. Mortality is high in cinematic mode - in my first adventure (three sessions totaling about 18 hours) with five players three PCs died, one had an arm torn off and was left adrift in a disabled lifeboat (I left his fate deliberately vague as we ended the game), and two survived. Note that there are six total in my previous sentence because in cinematic mode it is recommended that when a PC dies (not if) they assume the role of an NPC. The others died in chapter three so there was no time for them to play an NPC. In my second adventure (one session only about four hours long that started in chapter 2) everyone died, with some players losing their initial PC as well as an NPC they assumed.
Campaign mode is what it sounds like - the players play a single PC they create and grow (there are no levels, PCs simply get more points to put into skills as they gain experience) as they play multiple adventures. This mode should probably not be as lethal, but I have yet to play it.
One thing I didn't mention is that there are three types of PCs the party can be: space truckers (Alien), Colonial Marines (Aliens) and colonists (Alien 3). Which of these the party plays will have a huge impact on how the game goes. Any of these can work for cinematic mode, but I imagine space truckers would work best for campaign mode.
Cinematic mode sounds fantastic. Thanks for clarifying.
An example would be in Pathfinder making a perception check to find something hidden in a room.
You imply that Pathfinder requires a roll to find something hidden, but it doesn't, rather the gm is supposed to determine whether finding the hidden thing should be automatic or not and if notm should there be a chance of failure/bad outcome , and only if the gm determines there should be a chance of failure/bad results then the perception check can be rolled to be that random chance which accounts for character ability and task difficulty.
Pf perception checks are a tool to be used when beneficial, not all the time.
That may be true, but there are hundreds of these cases in D&D/PF. Sounds like in Alien RPG things like rolling for initiative, attack, damage, saves, and on and on are skipped for fewer higher stakes rolls.
In Alien initiative is determined by drawing cards (1-10). Some faster opponents in games I've run draw two cards and act on both counts. Damage is a set amount based on the weapon being used (potentially more if multiple 6s are rolled on the attack). Damage can be reduced by armor (roll a d6 per armor value and each 6 rolled negates one point of damage).
So initiative and dmg are essentially the same
Well no because as they said:
In Alien initiative is determined by drawing cards (1-10). Some faster opponents in games I've run draw two cards and act on both counts.
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Yes, but it isn’t a die roll. Which is what was claimed. If the threshold for similarity is that it generates a random number then we can close up shop and go home because all systems are identical.
Also, this is a conversation about the Year Zero Engine, it is not a conversation about the D20 engine. Please engage with the conversation at hand rather than forcing it to be about what you want to discuss by turning a request for information about the YZE into a bullet point comparison to your preferred game system.
1. I never claimed it was a die roll, jist functionally equivalent, which it is.
You claimed that the functional equivalency of random number generation meant that YZE doesn’t have fewer rolls.
2. I'm not making this a talk about d20. I made a comparison because the conversation had gone that way of being a compare/contrast with d20, started by fumarole.
Nope Fumarole answered your point about important checks and mentioned that D20 had more required checks. Then they explained the system as asked by Pan. They placated your conversation and moved on to discuss the YZE on its own merits. Then you made an assumption about rolls being “skipped” and Fumarole informed you that the ones you assumed were skipped were a card draw and a rolled defense mechanic. You then said both were the same as in d20. You were the one pulling it back to the topic of D20, and once again I’m asking - can you please let us talk about what we want to talk about without forcing us to talk about D20.
Not only not true, but you seriously aren't even trying if you can't think of a different check mechanic than comparing a randomized number to a target number. ORE (one roll engine) and the new star wars from ffg are not simple number vs number checks for example, though sw has that in part, it adds some inseparable twists beyond the number vs number.
You claimed that a card draw for initiative order meant that the Aliens game was functionally the same as D20. The point I was making is that all TTRPG’s use some form of random number generation to determine initiative if isn’t otherwise simply assigned. Even FFG’s Star Wars generates a random number. You roll your Cool or Vigilance and the number of successes and advantages determines the initiative order. Claiming that something most games do is not different enough from your favorite game makes little sense.
The other point I’ll make is that the card draw was never explained to you. You only know that cards are drawn, not what the results mean or what they tie to on a character shred to derive the result. You made your authoritative judgement that it wasn’t different than your preferred game without any information. You had a conclusion in mind before you began exploring.
4. Additionally, the comparison is about what kinds of checks are made when. Haladir's favorite system of PBtA is an example of using different kinds of checks at different times.
Not how the exchange went. I’ll provide a summary
THEM: checks are only made when necessaryYOU: Isn’t that how all games SHOULD work, it’s how D20 works.
THEM: D20 has more required rolls like X, Y and Z. Back to describing the Year Zero Engine.
YOU: It must be skipping rolls like A,B and C
THEM: example A is a card draw and example C is a roll off mechanic like Soak in Old White Wolf
YOU: then it isn’t functionally different than D20
5. My point was that the system does mot seem to be different from d20, which was a counter to the system being presented as different.
We know that was your point. We all watched you go fishing to find something like D20 so you could dismiss this game as a topic by claiming that it isn’t different than the game you want to talk about.
No one wants to talk about that game with you. We want to talk about other games without constantly having to reference D20 or The Alexandrian or whatever topic of the day you want to bring up.
Seriously, create a D20 appreciation thread and you will find others to engage in it. This thread isn’t for that purpose.
OMG! Tell us about your rpg system journey Interesting Character. Your journey away from the god almighty right true truer than all d20. It's in the thread title RPG systems are a journey, not the destination.
All you do is talk about your end destination, d20. You don't talk about the journey. You only engage with the capacity to speak of d20.
"Can it Rusty your story is boring!"
Not how the exchange went.Incorrect. Try reading more carefully.
It went like this,
Fumarole: System is different for reasons including that you only roll when needed.
Me: How is that different? That is normal.Here's where you neglect the part that you indicated that D20 works the way that Fumarole just described YZE working. Thus introducing D20 into the conversation. You're ALWAYS the one to bring it up, and then claim that the person responding to you brought it up as the topic. It's a threadjacking tactic you've employed consistently.
F: But it is different. Example from pf/d20. This is where fumarole answered your statement and then pivoted away from it to continue the discussion we were having
Me: Actually, that example doesn't work because...This is where you dragged it back to D20, because god forbid we talk about anything that doesn't meet your Alexandrian seal of approval
Pan: but it comes up a lot. "Sounds like" aliens does not roll X, Y, Z.You're absolutely right, Pan brought up the specific examples to respond to you - he often politely tries to include you despite the fact that you keep crapping all over his thread
F: Well, X and A are done like so, (implies Y is done the same as well).
Me: Well, that's not exactly different.Here is where you claim that drawing a card is no different than a dice roll added to a statistic
dirtypool: But it is Here is where I reiterate that it's a single card draw
Me: It's not, here's why.Here is where you claim that any random number generation is functionally the D20 system, despite D20 being derived from a different system and not being the originator of such a concept - and other systems also having it
dirtypool: But it is different because it's not dice like claimed.here is where I point out that the statement was that dice rolls are lessened, and since a card draw is not a dice roll - their statement is factually accurate Ignoring dice vs cards is pointless cause then everyone woukd be same. Also, stop talking d20. because as usual you're attempting a threadjack
Me: everything wrong with dirtypool's post Nope not really
dirtypool: but you said... and stop talking d20. That's not what was said... and stop talking d20.And here we are. where we always end up, with you threadjacking us to D20 or living in your own world where the events of the thread are happening differently than the rest of us can plainly see.
SHUT UP ALREADY! You keep doing this. You're either a troll or you absolutely do not understand what this thread it was about.
This thread was started because we were tired of talking about D20 with you in another thread, so this one was created to allow us to discuss what we wanted. You came anyways and STILL won't shut up about D20. This isn't even the D20 forum, it's the damn general forum. I'm not the only one who has asked you to not drag every conversation back to the topic of D20. The OP has asked MULTIPLE times.
Your perspective about D20. Your comparisons of all systems to D20. None of that is wanted here. You're like the coworker who microwaves fish in the breakroom... no one wants to do that. Go eat your fish where it's appropriate and leave the rest of us alone.
Perhaps we could just ignore him, rather than fill the thread with arguments about how he shouldn't be talking here.
Sure, because that has worked SOOO well every time we've tried it over the last two years of dealing with him.
The personal insults, the condescension, the spam posting, none of it stops by flagging and ignoring.
It never works
Then what alternative would you suggest? Because I like discussing alternate systems and how people feel about them and I would like to continue doing so. I don't want to have another conversation about the Alexandrian or a mystical version of the D20 system that only a small handful of people who read the book correctly know how to play.