I think the fact that you discuss nothing but 3.X means that you are unwilling to branch out from 3.X. No matter what the topic has moved to, you reel it back toward 3.X. You attribute to 3.X things that it cannot do and fault it’s successors as flawed for being beholden to the very same sword and sorcery tropes that 3.X was built to employ.
Everyone else here is willing to branch out, to explore and discuss other systems - you only want to discuss the one.
The title of the thread is about discussing the journey rather than the destination. We had a great discussion in the last several posts about how the exploration itself has merit and can improve the overall quality of how we play no matter what game the journey takes is toward. Your posts almost exclusively come from a place of discussing 3.X as your default, you rarely entertain the topic of any other system except to compare it to 3.X.
Even when you engage with the rest of us on the subsystems and unique mechanics we are discussing you spin it back toward 3.X - even if that game doesn’t include the kind of mechanic we’re discussing.
You’ve very clearly arrived at your destination.
I acknowledge that it was my aside that caused this latest derail, so I will end our conversation here so that the thread can resume its natural course.
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Unless your place of residence in the '80s had a gaming store that had tables that had multiple groups playing there, both wargames and rpgs. So I guess cons wouldn't be the only way.
Gaming in the '80s was very insular: Unless you went to cons, you and your play group didn't often get exposed to other groups with varying play styles and table culture.
There were gaming and hobby stores in the '80s that sold RPG material, but I never encountered one that offered any public play space. I'd neven even heard of gaming stores that offered public RPG play space until the mid-90s. And those were few, far between, and remarkable. That didn't really become a common thing until the early aughts, at least in my experience.
Gaming stores were a nexus of a sort because most at least offered public bulletin board space where people looking for groups and groups looking for players could pin up paper advertisements with their phone number.
At least, that's how it was in my neck of the woods (Southern New Hampshire through the late '80s, then central New York State).
Unless your place of residence in the '80s had a gaming store that had tables that had multiple groups playing there, both wargames and rpgs. So I guess cons wouldn't be the only way.
Gaming in the '80s was very insular: Unless you went to cons, you and your play group didn't often get exposed to other groups with varying play styles and table culture.
There were gaming and hobby stores in the '80s that sold RPG material, but I never encountered one that offered any public play space. I'd neven even heard of gaming stores that offered public RPG play space until the mid-90s. And those were few, far between, and remarkable. That didn't really become a common thing until the early aughts, at least in my experience.
Gaming stores were a nexus of a sort because most at least offered public bulletin board space where people looking for groups and groups looking for players could pin up paper advertisements with their phone number.
At least, that's how it was in my neck of the woods (Northern New England through the late '80s, then central New York State).
Yeah, I didn't know of any either, at least not at first. Dedicated gaming stores were rare enough.
Found one in the very late 80s/early 90s, but that was in college or just after and I had enough gaming groups available that I only played at the store once or twice. It wasn't convenient either.
I first encountered a gaming store with public play space in 1993, in a city that was a two-hour drive from my town. You had to reserve tables in advance, in person at the store, in 4-hour blocks: There were printed schedules in a three-ring binder where you wrote in your name and contact info. There was also a reservation fee, that I think was $5 or maybe $10.
So... not convenient in the slightest for those who didn't happen to live nearby!
Back to the journey...
I recently picked up a small fantasy RPG called Patchwork World by Aaron King. This game has the best and most succinct description of "Powered by the Apocalpyse" gameplay that I've ever encountered.
When playing Patchwork World, a player (often the GM) will begin to describe a place or a situation and ask the other players to interact with it via their characters, often by saying, “What do you do?” The players describe what their characters do in whatever fashion is comfortable.
Eventually, someone will trigger a move. Moves are sets of fictional triggers and mechanics; all players have access to various moves.
When the fictional trigger of a move happens (i.e. the part that starts “When you…”), follow the instructions of the move. When the move is resolved, things will look a little different; maybe players will have more information, maybe someone will be changed or wounded, maybe a danger is introduced or attracted. At this point, the GM again asks, “What do you?”
If players’ characters do something that doesn’t trigger a move, they just do it! This might result in a new status quo, or it might just be a thing that we see them do that teaches us more about them.
Always feel free to ask questions or negotiate things. Some actions can potentially trigger multiple moves; pick the one that feels best, right, or most fun, resolve it, and keep playing.
There are no rules for initiative or turn order; characters act whenever it makes sense, but after you act, ask other players if they’d like a turn. In a fight or a chase scene, it might make sense to go around the table in order. During a speech or negotiation, a single character might take the lead and narrate multiple actions or roll multiple moves.
That's PbtA gammeplay in a nutshell!
There were gaming and hobby stores in the '80s that sold RPG material, but I never encountered one that offered any public play space. I'd neven even heard of gaming stores that offered public RPG play space until the mid-90s. And those were few, far between, and remarkable. That didn't really become a common thing until the early aughts, at least in my experience.
There are advertisements for gaming and hobby stores that had public play space in issues of Dragon Magazine from the 1970's.
There was one in my town throughout the 1980's
There were gaming and hobby stores in the '80s that sold RPG material, but I never encountered one that offered any public play space. I'd neven even heard of gaming stores that offered public RPG play space until the mid-90s. And those were few, far between, and remarkable. That didn't really become a common thing until the early aughts, at least in my experience.There are advertisements for gaming and hobby stores that had public play space in issues of Dragon Magazine from the 1970's.
There was one in my town throughout the 1980's
Okay, cool. News to me, and I gamed through the '80s. Consider yourself privileged.
That was very much NOT a thing where I lived.
In the town I grew up in, the places to buy D&D and other RPG materials were: the Toys R Us, a local bookstore, and the local hobby shop... which mostly sold model train sets and materials. That hobby shop had a total floor space about the size of my living room, and did most of its business through mail order.
Me either. I lived in a midwestern college town (population ~ 100,000) and there was a single gaming store with no in-store gaming. Their bulletin board was the marketplace for GMs and players to find each other.
Im not a Con goer, but they seem like a natural place to explore new systems by experienced and enthusiastic GMs.
Most of the gaming supply places I recall as a kid in the twin city metro were too small to have gaming areas. They also were a diverse product setup I.E. sports cards, comics, anime, books, adult videos, etc..
FFG is headquartered here and they opened an event center about 10-12 years ago. They have ample playing space there. I did some PFS and it was a fun experience.
Okay, cool. News to me, and I gamed through the '80s. Consider yourself privileged.
That was very much NOT a thing where I lived.
It's not privilege it's location, having grown up in a large metro area.
It was common enough that Dungeon sold ad space to those stores, there is no reason to challenge someone else's statement by defining something as not having been common. The hobby is not now nor has it ever been a monolith. Players in large metro areas have different experience than players in the burbs and than players in smaller towns.
It was diverse then and is diverse now.
Deleted my own post because it was not furthering the conversation.
And yet it was common where i grew up from the early 80's. By the late 80's there were at least 3 stores with play space in a 20 mile radius from my house.
If you were talking about your own personal experience you shouldn't have expressed an absolutism
Gaming in the '80s was very insular: Unless you went to cons, you and your play group didn't often get exposed to other groups with varying play styles and table culture.
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This comment was not intended to be combative but to illustrate that other experiences were just as valid and deserving of consideration.
Other posts have been edited because they no longer server a purpose, so I am doing the same here.
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Take it to PMs, folks
Apologies for derailing the conversation. I have deleted a problematic post I made earlier.
I am actually glad to learn that others had access to more diverse gaming opportunities in the 1980s than I had.
Until this conversation, I didn't know those opportunities existed 35 years ago.
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Okay, cool. News to me, and I gamed through the '80s. Consider yourself privileged.
That was very much NOT a thing where I lived.
It's not privilege it's location, having grown up in a large metro area.
It was common enough that Dungeon sold ad space to those stores, there is no reason to challenge someone else's statement by defining something as not having been common. The hobby is not now nor has it ever been a monolith. Players in large metro areas have different experience than players in the burbs and than players in smaller towns.
It was diverse then and is diverse now.
I completely agree with your point.
I think we can all agree that our individual experiences have shaped our own journeys . It's also good to get a dose of reality now and then to help shake the assumption that your personal experience is more universal than it really is. And I thank you all for challenging me on that point.
I do have a semantic quibble with your first sentence.
"Privilege" is having a right, opportunity, or access to something that's not available to others. In the context of this discussion, living in a large metro area is, indeed, a privilege: By the happenstance of living in a metro area, you have access to things not available to those who live in less-populated areas.
And the reverse is also true.
When I said, "consider yourself privileged," I meant no insult whatsoever. To be honest, I'm somewhat envious of having that opportunity as a kid, and wish it had been available to me!
Defining my access to a store with play space as privilege is a qualitative statement about the commonality of access to these stores that is still based on the assumptions you've made based on your experience.
Having not conducted a poll to determine the true commonality of access to such a store - neither of us can say one way or another how common they truly were.
So rather than leaning back onto assumptions about whose experience is the more universal, I propose we not use terms that require validation of ones experience over another.
Soooo, Whats the system thats evaded your table that you would love to get a shot at?
For me its Battletech. I have the latest set from Catalyst games. I also have the Clan invasion box set too. This is far more wargamey than my usual tastes, though I have always loved the mechwarrior family of video games. I was surprised to see how interesting and deep the setting is for BT.
From my readings, the game uses D6 exclusively. There are numerous systems that cover movement, firing arcs, scatter patterns, and even melee. Its complex, but seems like the kind of thing that's easy to grasp after a few runs in the ol battle mech.
I have longed to run a campaign where the PCs are a merc outfit taking jobs around the inner sphere just before the clan invasion. Then, of course, taking on the clanners and getting their sweet mechs and superior weaponry.
For me, the system that has managed to not gain traction that I'd love a crack at is Onyx Path's StoryPath system. OP is a company built out of the ashes of former White Wolf - they license some of White Wolf's old properties (mostly Chronicles of Darkness and Exalted) and publish those using the original systems, but they outright purchased some of the other WW properties. Rather than being beholden to licensing a system for the games they own outright, they developed a new system called Story Path.
The new Scion is in Story Path, as are the Trinity games (Aeon, Aberrant and soon Adventure!) and the "They Came From..." line of games. The system is very different than the older Storytelling and Storyteller systems but maintains some similarities so I'd love to finally give it a whirl.
If we're talking setting not system, I want to run Mummy: The Curse but my table just won't bite.
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Defining my access to a store with play space as privilege is a qualitative statement about the commonality of access to these stores that is still based on the assumptions you've made based on your experience.
Having not conducted a poll to determine the true commonality of access to such a store - neither of us can say one way or another how common they truly were.
So rather than leaning back onto assumptions about whose experience is the more universal, I propose we not use terms that require validation of ones experience over another.
We're arguing semantics, but I think your interpretation is misplaced.
I made no statement of universality. There's no rule about "it's only a 'privilege' to have access to something if X% of people don't have such access." So I don't know what the heck you're talking about regarding polling about how common such access was 35 years ago.
"Privilege" means having access to rights, advantages, immunities, and opportunities that others do not.
I happen to live within half a mile of trailheads to four different nature trails, two of which go past excellent public swimming holes. I consider myself privileged to have that access.
My sister-in-law lives walking distance to a commuter rail station, which she uses to take to work every day. (Or at least used to pre-COVID.) I consider her to be privileged to have that opportunity.
I'm not too terribly worried about medical bills because my employer provides excellent insurance. I consider myself privileged to have that.
I own my own home free and clear. I consider that a privilege.
A friend owns a sailboat and rents dock space at a private marina. I consider that a privilege.
In the '80s, you had access to gaming stores that provided community play space. I consider that a privilege.
Soooo, Whats the system thats evaded your table that you would love to get a shot at?
For me its Battletech. I have the latest set from Catalyst games. I also have the Clan invasion box set too. This is far more wargamey than my usual tastes, though I have always loved the mechwarrior family of video games. I was surprised to see how interesting and deep the setting is for BT.
From my readings, the game uses D6 exclusively. There are numerous systems that cover movement, firing arcs, scatter patterns, and even melee. Its complex, but seems like the kind of thing that's easy to grasp after a few runs in the ol battle mech.
I have longed to run a campaign where the PCs are a merc outfit taking jobs around the inner sphere just before the clan invasion. Then, of course, taking on the clanners and getting their sweet mechs and superior weaponry.
Oh, there are several.
I think the top of the list is Cortex Prime. I've heard great things about this system recently, but have never played a Cortex game before.
I have a copy of Green Ronin's The Expanse RPG, but haven't brought it to the table yet. It uses their Adventure Game Engine ("AGE System"). I've only played a one-shot of Blue Rose 2e once, and that's my only experience with an AGE System game.
I'd also really like to give Maguey Baker's food-oriented story-game A Thousand and One Nights a shot, complete with a dinner party for the players.
And I've said upstream that I've never played Genesys, in either its generic or "Star Wars" incarnations, and I would like to give that a shot.
I bounced hard off of it back in the '90s, but I've been listening to a Vampire 5e actual-play podcast, and it does sound like a lot of fun. I'm now thinking that my aversion to the game was because the GM was kind of a jerk.
We're arguing semantics, but I think your interpretation is misplaced.
We're only arguing semantics because you decided to argue the semantics.
You said and I quote: "I do have a semantic quibble with your first sentence."
Don't now chastise me for arguing semantics by engaging with your argument.
Your acceptance of my original premise is somewhat undercut by the insistence that your perspective must continue to define the way the conversation is framed.
For actually new-to-me stuff, The One Ring comes to mind. Looked like the best Middle-Earth feel from anything I've seen.
Cubicle 7 had a great handle on the lore and the tone, I think even their 5e material for Adventures in Middle Earth was pretty great. Now that the license has left Cubicle 7 and gone to Free League I'm unsure what we'll be getting with The One Ring 2nd Edition, but I hope it is something that hews closely to Cubicle 7's game.
I do have Cubicle 7's Dr who box set with the tenth doc on the cover. The only Whovians I know dont game :(
Interesting. I knew they'd lost the license. Didn't realize someone else had picked it up and was keeping the basic approach. Looks like they've got at least some of the original team on board?
I kickstarted the 2nd Edition, we will ultimately get an Alpha draft preview but that looks to be a bit down the pike.
I like Kickstarters where you get to preview the manuscript before the KS closes, but they are few and far between.
We're arguing semantics, but I think your interpretation is misplaced.We're only arguing semantics because you decided to argue the semantics.
You said and I quote: "I do have a semantic quibble with your first sentence."
Don't now chastise me for arguing semantics by engaging with your argument.
Your acceptance of my original premise is somewhat undercut by the insistence that your perspective must continue to define the way the conversation is framed.
My quibbile is simply over usage of the word "privilege," but I believe I've made my point and will drop further discussion.
I'd be interested in a Blue Rose game, mostly just for the setting and atmosphere.
The AGE System is interesting: It's about as "crunchy" as 5E, but in different ways. It's still a traditional system with pass/fail resolution and secret rolls by the GM, but includes a "Drama Die" which introduces a both a degress-of-success mechanic and access to bonus results.
I only played a single session of Blue Rose 2e at a convention several years ago. I had fun, but it was clear that the GM didn't have tons of experience with the system under his belt, and there was a lot of flipping pages in the rulebook.
I have a copy of the rulebook: The setting is rich and detailed. The game has mechanics for interpersonal relationships, influence, courtly intrigue, deception, etc. While it includes combat mechanics, most battles are ones of wits and words... this is a game where if you're crossing literal swords with someone, you've almost certainly done something wrong.
I am hoping to get into a game at one of the online cons I'll be attending later this year.
I'd also like to bring The Expanse RPG to the table. It uses the AGE System as well, but with a very different spin on the system basics. It includes a "Maelstrom" mechanic: A system that's designed to be invoked when plans go awry, events fly off the rails, and the tension ratchets up: It's basically a "death spiral" mechanic that seeks to invoke similar action that's present in the books and TV series.
(Note: Green Ronin's license is specifically for the books, so there are no photos of the actors from the TV series, and the timeline doesn't include things from the show that were different from the novels. )
Question: How often do you play mix-and-match with RPG systems and settings: Both in terms of rules/mechanics and setting material?
For example: I am a HUGE fan of the modules that Tuesday Knight Games has written for their OSR sci-fi/horror RPG Mothership. Alas, I'm only kind-of lukewarm toward the game mechanics of the system itself. Consequently, I've been using other systems to run the modules.
The first time, I ran a four-session series of their adventure Dead Planet using a slightly-modified version of the PbtA sci-fi RPG Offworlders. Offworlders isn't designed to be a horror game, so I grafted on a "Stress" Mechanic from the narcofiction RPG Cartel. This mostly worked, but there were parts that didn't.
A few months later, I ran Dead Planet again for a different group, but this time, I used the Cthulhu Dark-derived sci-fi/horror RPG Alien Dark. This worked quite a bit better, with mechanics that really supported the paranoia, claustrophobia, and body-horror themes of the module. Still, there were a few aspects of the module that I thought the rules could have handled a bit better.
Right now, I'm working on my own hack of Trophy Gold to drift the mechanics from supporting dark fantasy to sci-fi horror. It looks like it's going to be more a re-flavoring parts of the game rather than a rules hack. I'm looking at running the module Gradient Descent using those rules later this summer.
For actually new-to-me stuff, The One Ring comes to mind. Looked like the best Middle-Earth feel from anything I've seen.Cubicle 7 had a great handle on the lore and the tone, I think even their 5e material for Adventures in Middle Earth was pretty great. Now that the license has left Cubicle 7 and gone to Free League I'm unsure what we'll be getting with The One Ring 2nd Edition, but I hope it is something that hews closely to Cubicle 7's game.
I've never played One Ring, but it's always intrigued me.
I understand that is uses a unique dice mechanic: Would anyone who's played it explain how it works?
The mechanic is fairly simple. At its most basic You roll a d12 called a "Feat Die" along with a number of d6 called "Success Dice" equal to your ranks in the skill you're using to accomplish the action.
The Feat Die is numbered 1-10 and its other two faces are the eye of Sauron and Gandalf's rune.
The results of the d6's are added to the score of the d10 and compared with a set Target Number determined by the actions difficulty.
Gandalf's Rune is considered an automatic success regardless of the Target Number and the Eye of Sauron is always a zero.
This is why my system is a "generic" system with a couple different settings planned for the book with the core rules initially introduced without any setting at all. The idea is to have a single system to run most games so that a group can jump from one setting/genre/game to the next without learning new systems for each, just learn the setting.
Generic seems like an ideal way to go for an RPG system. Once you grok how to handle any given situation, you just plug and play settings. A lot of groups already kinda sorta try this with D&D, though I think the system isnt good at being generic. Though, I have never been able to dig generic systems. Always at the table the generic system feels lacking. There is a feel that a good system invokes that is particular to it's setting. Generic systems have a problem staying under the hood, IME.
Question: How often do you play mix-and-match with RPG systems and settings: Both in terms of rules/mechanics and setting material?
Not too often. Since I prefer non-generic systems it's important to maintain consistent feel with gaming systems I use. I might be more likely to houserule in a system that mimics another sub-system though. I have wanted to get degrees of success into Pathfinder for some time. I'm playing in a PF2 AP right now to try out how Paizo does it. So far, im not liking how they implemented it, although it does fit universally across the system.
I agree. They seem like a good idea, but rarely work out well - at least across broad differences in setting and genre. System matters. Different systems play differently and one designed with the genre assumptions in mind works better.
Major rewrites using the same basic engine can work better, but even they often struggle. Thinking the glut of d20 games back in the 2000s or things like AGE or Powered by the Apocalypse. I suspect you still hit limits as you move too far from the original assumptions.
I’d hesitate to discuss D20 as a true “generic” system. Sure with the OGL it was billed as such, but it was built around the core assumptions of D&D first and then those were filed off to make it “generic.”
From the talk I hear about PbtA you can bend that system 8 ways from Sunday without cracking its spine. Cinematic Unisystem was pretty flexible. Genesys handles Star Wars, High Fantasy and Cyberpunk with ease.
Even GURPS was pretty flexible at its core - it’s the book bloat that weighs it down.
I don't think d20 really was either, but it was one of the first where the same basic engine was reworked to run actual different games. As opposed to something like GURPS where it was all still GURPS just with different sourcebooks for settings.
This I think perfectly illustrates my point. The D20 engine wasn’t so much reworked to run different games as different games were reworked to run on the D20 engine.
The OGL was a great marketing strategy that certainly enabled a publishing boom in the early 2000’s - but the bust that followed I think shows how woefully inadequate D20 was at being a universal system. Other systems can slide back into the background and let a setting run - D20 felt like D&D whether it’s Spycraft or Star Wars or Stargate or Modern or Prime Directive.
Many true generic systems are more like GURPS with a core system that remains the same and sourcebooks for bolting on different settings or subsystems.
The ones that work best I think are the ones that split the difference - where the gameplay adapts to the setting while maintaining a bit of its own unique systemic feel.
I find that the competence of the gm matters. A mediocre gm relies more on the system thus resulting in the system setting the pace and tone, but a better gm can take control of pace and tone and thus system matters less.
I personally prefer encouraging gms to become better skilled, rather than designing with a focus on supporting mediocre gm ability.
It's not for everyone, and I don't expect very many gms to ever be professional grade, but I think it is better for the hobby to have more people actually trying to be professional grade rather than just telling everyone to rely on tools designed for mediocrity.
We didn't get Elvis or Queen or Bach by telling people to rely on instruments to do the work and not worry about becoming actually skilled at the craft of music.
There is also the fact that the experience of an rpg has such a broad multi-faceted scope. PBtA is outright incapable of doing what dnd 3 does, but it can still do the same genres as dnd and set the same tones (mostly) and work in the same settings. These are all different facets of the rpg experience, and while those facets have overlap between dnd 3 and pbta, there are other facets in which the two are completely opposed but in a subtle non-obvious way.
Well, if system doesnt matter to you, then it looks like you are done here.
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If system only really matters to “less competent” GM’s and more competent GM’s can make any system do what they wish it to - then why does the marketplace need the system that you are developing?
Who accredits “professional grade” GM’s? Is it an international professional standard or only in the US? Is it a union? Are there dues?