How much for a Big Mac in Absalom? Or the purchasing power of a gold piece


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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While it is tempting to calculate the weight of a gold coin and use the current value of gold, this asumes the supply and demand of gold are similar. As an utterly pointless thought experiment, I am going to take a look at the purchasing the "real" power of gold in Golarion.

Usually, IRL, when comparing incomes in different countries you use the Big Mac index, divide the number by the local price of a Big Mac and multiply it by the price of a USA Big Mac to obtain the value at purchasing-power parity (PPP).

Example:
the minimum wage in Peru is S/. 1373.58 gross for a month (basic basket is S/. 1370), a Big Mac is S/. 11.90 and $ 5.66 in the USA, so $ 653.92 at purchasing-power parity and $ 379.44 at current exchange rate (3.62 PEN/USD). For comparison, the NYC's basic basket in 2016 was USD 602.00, or about USD 648.89 in 2020 dollars.

Sadly, there are no McDonalds' I know of in Golarion so I would have to do this backwards. For the basic basket, I would use the cost of the comfortable standard of living, that's 52 gp per year (CRB pg. 294). Comparing NYC to Absalom, we get that $ 648.89 x 12 = 52 gp or 1 gp = $ 149.74.

So in conclusion, if there was a McDonald's in Absalom, a Big Mac would be about 4 cp (3.77 cp rounded up).

Humbly,
Yawar


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Wow. The Big Mac is a bad food investment. For a copper piece less you can get an entire "square" meal, rather than just a sandwich which, while tasty, I would hesitate to call "square."


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Perpdepog wrote:
Wow. The Big Mac is a bad food investment. For a copper piece less you can get an entire "square" meal, rather than just a sandwich which, while tasty, I would hesitate to call "square."

Yeah, you have to go to Wendy's for those.


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Mmm, Baconator.


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Fumarole wrote:
Mmm, Baconator.

This is now the name of my next animal companion, or perhaps an animal instinct barbarian.

"They call me The Baconataur."


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Perpdepog wrote:
"They call me The Baconataur."

Now I can't stop thinking in chef themed vigilante with a boar animal companion named The Baconateur.


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I don't think Paizo puts so much thought into prices as that this comparison would work.

And technically, in medieval/renaissance times the economy worked rather differently anyway so you wouldn't be able to draw parallels to modern concepts anyway.

I really like the acoup blog as it dispells a lot of the assumptions we have about how things worked in the past.

Here for example the beginning of several parts on how food production which was a major part of the economy.
https://acoup.blog/2020/07/24/collections-bread-how-did-they-make-it-part-i -farmers/

The lonely city series is also good
https://acoup.blog/2019/07/12/collections-the-lonely-city-part-i-the-ideal- city/


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There is in fact a waffle maker available on Golarion that even has a mithril option so waffles are a thing, so why not 'fried meat patties on bread.' that are sold to workers?

We could even go all 'Delicious in Dungeon' manga and serve up troll burgers. The acid in your stomach keeps it from regenerating. Cavet Emptor though. Don't be taking heartburn medicine.

Silver Crusade

Ixal wrote:
And technically, in medieval/renaissance times

Which has nothing to do with Golarion, so irrelevant.


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Rysky wrote:
Ixal wrote:
And technically, in medieval/renaissance times
Which has nothing to do with Golarion, so irrelevant.

It does. Because the defining factor for the economy is technological, not only directly for agriculture but also storage and transportation. And those things are about the level roughtly equal to real world renaissance.

You can argue that magic makes agriculture more efficient, and that is certainly true for some places like the fertility towers around Absolom, but those are a few specific regions while most of Golarion has to work with entirely mundane means.

Silver Crusade

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Ixal wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Ixal wrote:
And technically, in medieval/renaissance times
Which has nothing to do with Golarion, so irrelevant.

It does. Because the defining factor for the economy is technological, not only directly for agriculture but also storage and transportation. And those things are about the level roughtly equal to real world renaissance.

You can argue that magic makes agriculture more efficient, and that is certainly true for some places like the fertility towers around Absolom, but those are a few specific regions while most of Golarion has to work with entirely mundane means.

And you don't know the exact economic growth and timeline of the countries of Golarion which have always had magic in a fantasy setting so saying "it's like the renaissance" is not accurate and irrelevant.


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Rysky wrote:
Ixal wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Ixal wrote:
And technically, in medieval/renaissance times
Which has nothing to do with Golarion, so irrelevant.

It does. Because the defining factor for the economy is technological, not only directly for agriculture but also storage and transportation. And those things are about the level roughtly equal to real world renaissance.

You can argue that magic makes agriculture more efficient, and that is certainly true for some places like the fertility towers around Absolom, but those are a few specific regions while most of Golarion has to work with entirely mundane means.
And you don't know the exact economic growth and timeline of the countries of Golarion which have always had magic in a fantasy setting so saying "it's like the renaissance" is not accurate and irrelevant.

The growth and timeline is irrelevant as the limiting factor is technological. And based on the setting information and that large scale magical use for agriculture is something noteworthy the level can roughly be estimated to fall into the renaissance era. Even when you introduce some more advanced features like advanced crop rotation there are still limiting factors like transportation etc. which we know of which would limit the agricultural output to the point that the entire economy would resemble renaissance era economy instead of a modern economy. Unless you simply ignore all that of course and decide by fiat and decree that you shall not think about it.

Silver Crusade

It’s not me that’s ignoring, you do not have the facts and info to be making these assured claims.


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Rysky wrote:
It’s not me that’s ignoring, you do not have the facts and info to be making these assured claims.

I know what modes of transportations are available from rulebooks and adventures and roughly what technological level Golarion has, again based on available equipment and the description of adventures.

I also know roughly how much influence magic has on large scale industrial processes, specifically on agriculture, by the description of Absolom where such a magical-industrial practice is shown to be the exception and is also failing and can't be maintained. This shows that at least in the known world it is not widespread.

All this lets you roughly estimate to which real world era Golarion would be equivalent to. And especially for agriculture there has not been real breakthroughs for centuries which would transform the economy, so even with a very high grey area one can derive what that means for the rest of the society.

Thats because agriculture had a gigantic impact on the rest of society and shaped everything else from the way the economy worked, how and where cities were created and how they looked like up to military matters.

See the links provided about agriculture and lonely cities. They are in my opinion very good reads when you want to give a bit more depth to your games.
Whats also interesting, and related to agriculture, are the posts about loot trains of armies.


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Rysky wrote:
Ixal wrote:
I know
You really don't.

What a extensive argumentation from your side.

The core book contains mode of transportations, the PF1 book even included speed for some (rather slow). And those are all consistent with medieval and renaissance technology.

We also know what magic can do and who can cast the appropriate spell (4th level Plant Grow ritual being the most appropriate as far as I can see). And we have the description of the towers around Absolom and their state which indicates they are the exception not the rule.

So yes, I know.


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Ixal wrote:

And technically, in medieval/renaissance times

(snip)
It does. Because the defining factor for the economy is technological, not only directly for agriculture but also storage and transportation. And those things are about the level roughtly equal to real world renaissance.
(snip)
And based on the setting information and that large scale magical use for agriculture is something noteworthy the level can roughly be estimated to fall into the renaissance era.

Here's what James Jacobs, the Paizo Creative Director says about those arguments

James Jacobs wrote:

As seen in the many, many adventures we've published—those hundreds of published adventures being the best example of the world's tech level. Golarion was never intended to map precisely to what you call the "Dung Ages" at all. As I've said earlier... it allows for a GM to play in a wide range of different "eras" of inspiration, depending on what part of the setting you set your game in. If you wanna run something in the "Dung Age" you can do so—I suggest checking out Galt or maybe Molthune/Nirmathas for that sort of game.

It's easier to talk about a hypothetical "average" city/town when you do so in the context of one of the 45 or so nations in the Inner Sea Region. By design, the region as a whole covers pretty much everything from caveman-times on up to the late 18th/early 19th century, with a fair number of purely fantasy options thrown in, so that a GM can choose a nation that best suits their preference.

And further

James Jacobs wrote:

It has magic and monsters and takes inspiration from eras and regions far beyond medieval Europe.

The medieval world did not have magic, nor monsters, and the one I infer you're speaking of is a specific time period in European history.

My proof of in-universe examples that Golarion is a different place than the historical European medieval world exists in every product we publish. Pick any of them at random to find examples.
(snip)

Especially since there's already pretty much all of the technological/magical development we need in the setting to tell all the stories we want to know already. Especially considering places like Alkenstar and Numeria.
(snip)

Further more, Golarion is not Earth. Compared to Earth's recorded timeline, Golarion is thousands of years in the future from where we'd be at today. Furthermore, the fact that magic's been around all this time means that how and when things (magical or not) are invented is pretty much up to us, not up to following the real world's timeline.


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CrystalSeas wrote:


Here's what James Jacobs, the Paizo Creative Director says about those arguments

Even when you shift around the time a couple of centuries nothing much changes. There has not been much innovation in agriculture before artificial fertilizers and mass transport.

We do not know if the former exist or not, but we know what kind of transportation is available in Pathfinder.
We also know what magic is capable of which does not help much. You can increase yields by 1/3, but that requires the full time employment of many casters able to cast 4th level rituals who do nothing the whole year except for traveling and casting.

Finally, its also not a question of area of culture. The food economy was the thing that defined and limited all cultures around the world. The only real difference was which crop, if any, was used as food with there being a big difference between grains and rice for example.


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Ixal wrote:
Even when you shift around the time a couple of centuries nothing much changes.
James Jacobs wrote:
By design, the region as a whole covers pretty much everything from caveman-times on up to the late 18th/early 19th century, with a fair number of purely fantasy options thrown in,
Ixal wrote:
The food economy was the thing that defined and limited all cultures around the world.
James Jacobs wrote:
Further more, Golarion is not Earth.

You can add whatever setting rules you like to give you a better economic emulation of a specific Earth time period. But that doesn't limit the rest of us or the Paizo design staff. Everyone else gets to ignore your homebrew rules that more narrowly constrain story telling and game play.


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CrystalSeas wrote:
Ixal wrote:
Even when you shift around the time a couple of centuries nothing much changes.
James Jacobs wrote:
By design, the region as a whole covers pretty much everything from caveman-times on up to the late 18th/early 19th century, with a fair number of purely fantasy options thrown in,
Ixal wrote:
The food economy was the thing that defined and limited all cultures around the world.
James Jacobs wrote:
Further more, Golarion is not Earth.

You can add whatever setting rules you like to give you a better economic emulation of a specific Earth time period. But that doesn't limit the rest of us or the Paizo design staff. Everyone else gets to ignore your homebrew rules that more narrowly constrain story telling and game play.

So what in Golarion lets them have a completely different economy and agriculture? We know that it is neither technology, transportation or magic.

And having more sensible and closer to reality background stuff does not limit the designer any more than having a fantastic "don't think about it" setting. It just requires different explanations, but imo also offers more stories to tell.


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Ixal wrote:
So what in Golarion lets them have a completely different economy and agriculture? We know that it is neither technology, transportation or magic.

Magic. Storytelling. Anything else you need to invent in order to make yourself feel better about how Paizo handles Golarion.

As long as Paizo creative staff are happy with how Golarion is designed, and as long as sales figures back up their design decisions, you aren't going to be able to force them to meet your intellectual design criteria.

Make up whatever story you like that fits with the reality of Golarion canon. It's up to you to decide what works for you. Paizo staff have said it doesn't matter to them.

Silver Crusade

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That’s the thing, we don’t know.

So trying to claim “I know, because it must match what I assume about earth during a certain time period” is just ridiculous.


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Rysky wrote:

That’s the thing, we don’t know.

So trying to claim “I know, because it must match what I assume about earth during a certain time period” is just ridiculous.

Would be nice if you actually read my posts.

The time period is a shorthand for technological development and that one is known as for example the available transportation methods are listed in the books and transportation was one of the things limiting agriculture. Spells, including the plant grow ritual, are listed too, so we know what it is capable off and what not. That leaves only refrigeration and artificial fertilizer as key technologies are indeed unknown. If magical refrigeration is available in large numbers it would have a huge impact on the setting though as it would mean that magic is much more widespread and common than normally assumed. Same for an organized, large scale plant growth program although that one is a bit more believable within the usual constraints of the setting.

Your little "you don't know" mantra without any arguments or explanations is getting tiresome. If you disagree with me, then please provide some form of counter argument.


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Ixal wrote:
If you disagree with me, then please provide some form of counter argument.

OK, here we go.

Quote:
The time period is a shorthand for technological development

Paizo staff have already said that technological development on Golarion covers tens of thousands of years of human history

the region as a whole covers pretty much everything from caveman-times on up to the late 18th/early 19th century, with a fair number of purely fantasy options thrown in

You are assuming that it only covers a small part of human history on Earth.Instead it covers tens of thousands more years, and includes elven history, dwarven history, draconic history, and more. Golarion is not limited to emulating the Earth.

Quote:
transportation was one of the things limiting agriculture.

True for Earth. Not true for Golarion.

Quote:
Spells, including the plant grow ritual, are listed too, so we know what it is capable off and what not.

The rules only apply to Player Characters. NPCs, creatures, gods, and the rest of the setting are not limited by PC rules.

Quote:
it would mean that magic is much more widespread and common than normally assumed

Absolutely. Your assumptions are wrong.

The rules for magic that the PCs are allowed to use are only a subset of the magic available to Paizo creative staff and freelancers when creating stories for the Golarion setting.

Paizo encourages people to use the Pathfinder rules to build their own worlds or to home-brew and house-rule new options for your players. You can create a setting that is constrained by any rules you want to apply. You can even tweak the Golarion setting to limit it to rules that make more sense to you.

But what you cannot do is limit Paizo staff and freelancers to the assumptions and rules that you are most comfortable with.


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CrystalSeas wrote:


Paizo staff have already said that technological development on Golarion covers tens of thousands of years of human history
...
You are assuming that it only covers a small part of human history on Earth.Instead it covers tens of thousands more years, and includes elven history, dwarven history, draconic history, and more. Golarion is not limited to emulating the Earth.

Even now technology on earth ranges from stone age (the few isolated nature tribes left) to various degrees of modern. That does not change what technology is able to do, especially for agriculture where real improvements came very late with the industrialization, a level not reached by Golarion (or 99% of it)

Quote:
transportation was one of the things limiting agriculture.

And why would that be? Things still have weight and have to be transported from point A to B and we know what modes of transportation there are. Pathfinder is not that fantastic that such basic laws do not apply.

Quote:
Spells, including the plant grow ritual, are listed too, so we know what it is capable off and what not.

The rules only apply to Player Characters. NPCs, creatures, gods, and the rest of the setting are not limited by PC rules.

Absolutely. Your assumptions are wrong.
The rules for magic that the PCs are allowed to use are only a subset of the magic available to Paizo creative staff and freelancers when creating stories for the Golarion setting.

Despite this there is no large argricultural magic in use except for the towers around Absolom which are both unique and failing.

Quote:


Paizo encourages people to use the Pathfinder rules to build their own worlds or to home-brew and house-rule new options for your players. You can create a setting that is constrained by any rules you want to apply. You can even tweak the Golarion setting to limit it to rules that make more sense to you.

But what you cannot do is limit Paizo staff and freelancers to the assumptions and rules that you are most comfortable with.

Having a complete disregard for logic and continuity is as limiting as speculating how Golarion would look like if it paid attention to such things.


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Ixal wrote:
a level not reached by Golarion (or 99% of it)
Quote:
Pathfinder is not that fantastic that such basic laws do not apply.
Quote:
Despite this there is no large argricultural magic in use except for the towers around Absolom which are both unique and failing.

So what? How do any of your beliefs about Golarion change what stories are being told?

Quote:
Having a complete disregard for logic and continuity is as limiting as speculating how Golarion would look like if it paid attention to such things.

You seem to have very strong feelings about how Golarion is designed and explained. But your feelings are not in any way limiting for anyone else's vision of Golarion.

Only the people actually creating the world can know whether or not a particular bit of continuity or logic is or is not limiting. You and I are not part of that process. No matter what we believe, it's irrelevant and does not change how Golarion is portrayed by Paizo.

If you want to tweak the material Paizo provides, that's cool. But it's totally meaningless to me or to anyone actually producing that material.

Silver Crusade

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Ixal wrote:
Having a complete disregard for logic and continuity is as limiting as speculating how Golarion would look like if it paid attention to such things.

Not agreeing with your assumptions without proof is not a disregard for logic nor continuity, and no, the continuity your concocting in your own head that isn’t actually what’s written doesn’t count.


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I'm curious what your point is.

Is it that Paizo has told stories that don't fit the "rules of Golarion"?
Is it that Paizo does things with their setting that you don't agree with?
Is it that you believe Golarion has to be more like Earth to tell the stories you want to tell?

You don't actually seem to have an argument except "that's not how it works on Earth" and "that's not how Earth history happened". Which are absolutely true.

And it's also true that those arguments aren't relevant to how Golarion works.


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Golarion reminds me of Warworld from Marvel's Secret Wars, a planet cobbled together from different worlds and cultures. Hence we have Demon Land near Conan Land and Robot Monster Land.


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I keep meaning to visit this thread when I am on a proper computer and go checking out those links. I love historical misconceptions and the dispelling thereof. It personally delights me to try and apply such logic to fantasy settings, armchair theorizing what the impact of this or that magical ability would be.

That said, I don't think the game is called Economyfinder, so while as much as I enjoy about these things historically for world building tools, I think I'll not throw my horse into this race.

Dotting for posterity


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I keep meaning to visit this thread when I am on a proper computer and go checking out those links. I love historical misconceptions and the dispelling thereof. It personally delights me to try and apply such logic to fantasy settings, armchair theorizing what the impact of this or that magical ability would be.

That said, I don't think the game is called Economyfinder, so while as much as I enjoy about these things historically for world building tools, I think I'll not throw my horse into this race.

Dotting for posterity

You don't need to turn Pathfinder into an economy game to make it more sensible. Often changing descriptions is enough. Have heavy farming around cities and waterways while wilderness is further away, have food be mostly locale fares as transporting food is hard.

Villages are dominated my manors while nearly all villages are farmers and more concerned about self sustenance instead of profit which makes the village mostly an enclosed economic space which does not primarily run on coin (in case the PCs want something from them. This also makes the "Big Mac index" hard when coin is not the primary value and food is more scarce, especially not local fares).
This of course means that dungeons tend to be much farther away from towns than normally while the area around cities and towns are usually monster free until you are several days or even a week away.
And wherever possible river barges are used for transport.

Or when your campaign involves wars and large armies, even just as background have food be a real concern for them and have them follow the ways they can forage enough while keeping them small enough that its believable that the country can support them instead of overblown numbers marching straight through wilderness so that you avoid thinks like the GoT Highgarden raid as explained in the link a few posts ago.

"If everything is special, nothing is", so going full gonzo with everything and place things "because it cool" imo wears thin very fast. When you instead ground things in reality the exceptional shine out much brighter and things that break the normal conventions like an undead army that can ignore the food problem other armies have become much more threatening.
Besides, thank to modern media most people have become so used to everything being exceptional that something grounded is often more exotic to them.

Silver Crusade

Ixal wrote:

"If everything is special, nothing is", so going full gonzo with everything and place things "because it cool" imo wears thin very fast. When you instead ground things in reality the exceptional shine out much brighter and things that break the normal conventions like an undead army that can ignore the food problem other armies have become much more threatening.

Besides, thank to modern media most people have become so used to everything being exceptional that something grounded is often more exotic to them.

Gonna disagree with this.

Mundane Fantasy is one of my favourite style of settings for example.


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I'm still not sure what your point is.

Ixal wrote:

(Lots of suggestions on how to houserule/homebrew Pathfinder games.)

"If everything is special, nothing is", so going full gonzo with everything and place things "because it cool" imo wears thin very fast.

For you that's true. And you're encouraged to create whatever new rules make the game fun for you and your players.

But that's your personal experience. It doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.

As James Jacobs said just a few minutes ago:

Quote:
(REMEMBER: Pathfinder is mostly looking to be a combat/skill/personal character simulator, NOT a society or civilization simulator.


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CrystalSeas wrote:


As James Jacobs said just a few minutes ago:
Quote:
(REMEMBER: Pathfinder is mostly looking to be a combat/skill/personal character simulator, NOT a society or civilization simulator.

You can't have a character without a society. Characters are shaped by the society they live in both their upbringing and their actions (unless you only want to play a anti social murderhobo)

And my original point was that the economy in a Pathfinder like world would be so different from what we are using now that a direct comparison of coin value "Big Mac index" would not be possible, with links to a nice blog which often picks up misconceptions about history from movies, books and also RPGs.

And as the discussion went the point moved more to the agricultural techniques you would have in Golarion which is the main reason why the economic model would be so different, although it more and more morphs into a larger point about how internal setting logic adds value to the game instead of restricting it compared to just make stuff up that looks cool but wouldn't work like it is currently done in Pathfinder.


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Ixal wrote:

You can't have a character without a society. Characters are shaped by the society they live in both their upbringing and their actions (unless you only want to play a anti social murderhobo)

(snip)

And my original point was that the economy in a Pathfinder like world would be so different from what we are using now that a direct comparison of coin value "Big Mac index" would not be possible, with links to a nice blog which often picks up misconceptions about history from movies, books and also RPGs.

I agree that directly comparing the gold value "Big Mac Index" is based on assumptions that invalidate the conclusion. I totally disagree that the Pathfinder world has a single "Earth time period" that it is comparable to.

The reason the conclusion is invalid is not because of misconceptions about Earth history. The conclusion is invalid because Golarion is not meant to emulate Earth economies or societies of any historical period. The differences between Earth and Golarion are not based on ignorance.

Quote:
a larger point about how internal setting logic adds value to the game instead of restricting it compared to just make stuff up that looks cool but wouldn't work like it is currently done in Pathfinder.

Are you saying that Pathfinder "just makes stuff up that looks cool" and that in doing so, it restricts the stories that can be told?

And are you saying that "internal setting logic adds value" and that retconning Golarion would make the game more financially successful? Or just that people could tell more stories if your view of how the logic should work were adopted?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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You don't need an organized, large scale plant growth program--just say your prayers to Erastil, and he'll ensure you have a bountiful harvest.


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Fantasy Economics is possible, just check out the manga Spice and Wolf for an example.


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CrystalSeas wrote:
Ixal wrote:

You can't have a character without a society. Characters are shaped by the society they live in both their upbringing and their actions (unless you only want to play a anti social murderhobo)

(snip)

And my original point was that the economy in a Pathfinder like world would be so different from what we are using now that a direct comparison of coin value "Big Mac index" would not be possible, with links to a nice blog which often picks up misconceptions about history from movies, books and also RPGs.

I agree that directly comparing the gold value "Big Mac Index" is based on assumptions that invalidate the conclusion. I totally disagree that the Pathfinder world has a single "Earth time period" that it is comparable to.

The reason the conclusion is invalid is not because of misconceptions about Earth history. The conclusion is invalid because Golarion is not meant to emulate Earth economies or societies of any historical period. The differences between Earth and Golarion are not based on ignorance.

Quote:
a larger point about how internal setting logic adds value to the game instead of restricting it compared to just make stuff up that looks cool but wouldn't work like it is currently done in Pathfinder.

Are you saying that Pathfinder "just makes stuff up that looks cool" and that in doing so, it restricts the stories that can be told?

And are you saying that "internal setting logic adds value" and that retconning Golarion would make the game more financially successful? Or just that people could tell more stories if your view of how the logic should work were adopted?

The argument is, and never has been "it must be that way because thats how it was on Earth". The reason why the economic system has been that way was because of, well, laws of nature. Bulk transport was hard, thus transporting food over long distances was not possible unless it was over the sea (See acoup's discussion about loot trains, using Game of Thrones as example) and yield was low because there were neither artificial fertilizers and mechanization to replace muscle and ox power.

This in turn is was shaped the cities (See Lonely Cities Part 1 and 2) and also how food economy worked (All parts of "How did they make it: Bread". The discussion about Iron is also very interesting.)

And all those limitations also exist on Golarion. Not to mention that Pathfinder wants to present this exact pictures with farmers in villages and other medieval/renaissance trappings.
Sure, Golarion has magic, but the core books are very clear what magic is capable off unless you go superhigh mythic NPC level which is usually not practicable on a large scale (and if it is, the actions of such an NPC certainly affects more things than just farming and are on interest for the PCs). Also, farming magic is specifically mentioned when it exists, meaning Absolom, which in turn means its something special to that region instead of something practiced wildly.

Does "making stuff up" restrict stories? In my opinion yes, because without cause and effect the players have no means to interact with anything besides the immediate event, but they can't really use that event to make connections and conclusions about how it effects the rest of the setting.
For example when you just decide that the PCs faces some monster while walking through the desert because its cool, the PCs can't use this encounter to try to deduce if water is nearby (as the monster needed it to survive) or speculate if they are still on a trade route or have lost the path and wandered into "wilderness" as such monster should not be anywhere near heavily traveled trade routes because such things played no part in the decision why the monster was there.

To go back to the topic, not only is it more flavorful to have a more realistic economy/agriculture, at least on a basic level, but also all manner of plot hooks can be created out of it, the actions of the PCs can also have much bigger impact on the world, for example when they manage to accidently blow up a bridge to cut off transportation which causes starvation in a city) and, more importantly, the Players can judge beforehand what results their actions might have and plan accordingly as there is a cause-effect relationship instead of everything depending on what the GM currently feels like.
And that cause-effect relationship is imo missing in many Paizo publications, be it for monster placement, the way societies work (socially and economically), etc.

And even if you or the players don't care about that and want to follow a heroic, plotted path, its still more interesting when you sprinkle in such things like describing the huge amount of deforestation required to make iron etc.

Silver Crusade

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Ixal wrote:
And all those limitations also exist on Golarion.
In some places yes, but it also has numerous ways around those limitations.
Ixal wrote:
Not to mention that Pathfinder wants to present this exact pictures with farmers in villages and other medieval/renaissance trappings.
That is an assumption of your own making, not a fact or truth.
Ixal wrote:
Sure, Golarion has magic, but the core books are very clear what magic is capable off unless you go superhigh mythic NPC level

1) Again, that's you guessing.

2) NPCs don't have the same rules as PCs.

3) just because useful fantasy farm stuff doesn't exist as PC rules doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just doesn't have a role as a PC option.

Ixal wrote:
Does "making stuff up" restrict stories? In my opinion yes,
We're playing a fantasy game, everything is made up.
Ixal wrote:
For example when you just decide that the PCs faces some monster while walking through the desert because its cool, the PCs can't use this encounter to try to deduce if water is nearby (as the monster needed it to survive) or speculate if they are still on a trade route or have lost the path and wandered into "wilderness" as such monster should not be anywhere near heavily traveled trade routes because such things played no part in the decision why the monster was there.
I have never had anything like this occur in any of my history of playing tabletops. If someone wants to play a extreme survival/trailblazer take on every monster they encounter to deduce their habitat and the surrounding area, okay, but that's not the norm.
Ixal wrote:
To go back to the topic, not only is it more flavorful to have a more realistic economy/agriculture,
That's another assumption you are having.
Ixal wrote:
but also all manner of plot hooks can be created out of it
Just because YOU can't come up with plot hooks in a fantasy setting regarding this doesn't mean they don't exist, your option just has different plot hooks.
Ixal wrote:
or example when they manage to accidently blow up a bridge to cut off transportation which causes starvation in a city)
This is oddly specific and not universally applicable.
Ixal wrote:
more importantly, the Players can judge beforehand what results their actions might have and plan accordingly as there is a cause-effect relationship instead of everything depending on what the GM currently feels like.
This isn't a setting thing, just because you're not using fantasy doesn't make players plan more or less, it's solely a player issue.
Ixal wrote:
And that cause-effect relationship is imo missing in many Paizo publications, be it for monster placement, the way societies work (socially and economically), etc.

And you overanalyzing everything will of course show cracks, be it tabletop games or actual city structure and planning in real life.

Paizo makes games, they don't have an army of economists and historians and politicians and scientists planning their game for them.


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Ixal wrote:

The argument is, and never has been "it must be that way because thats how it was on Earth". The reason why the economic system has been that way was because of, well, laws of nature.

(snip)
And all those limitations also exist on Golarion.

Whatever the "laws of nature" are on Earth, the limitations certainly don't exist on Golarion.

Quote:
And even if you or the players don't care about that and want to follow a heroic, plotted path, its still more interesting when you sprinkle in such things like describing the huge amount of deforestation required to make iron etc.

In your opinion, the game is more interesting when the setting closely emulates the Earth.

As one of the developers said some time ago

Quote:

There are better places to discuss history, and a game with elves and magic isn't it.

In fact, since this is fantasy, we can make a better world than the one in which we live.

The Pathfinder ruleset allows you to play the games you want. It can have all the limitations of "natural laws" and "logical consequences" that you want to apply to it.

Fortunately, the ruleset also allows those of us who don't want to add your assumptions and limitations to our game to also play the game we want.

Your opinion is just that: an opinion. Trying to frame it as somehow superior or more desirable than other play styles doesn't do you any favors.

No one is stopping you from using the Pathfinder rules to build your own world. No one is stopping you from tweaking Golarion to fit your own point of view.

But it's not the point of view of the Paizo developers, nor of many other people who play the game. They aren't going to retcon the whole world just because, in your opinion, it would "be more interesting".

How about recognizing that other people have equally valid opinions about what makes Golarion interesting? Instead of making sweeping statements about how the rest of us are having BadWrongFun, you just accept that there are many different ways to enjoy Pathfinder and yours is one opinion among many?


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A few notes:

- I compared the basic basket in NYC ( USD 648.89) to the basic basket in Golarion (4.33 gp). Usually, you use the Big Mac index because it is way easier than to do calculate the basic basket for a place. As a matter of fact, it was easier to find out what the basic basket for Golarion than for NYC. I just mentioned the Big Mac Index, mainly, because I find the idea of a McDonald's in Absalom funny.

- While the rules are made to support PCs playing the game, it is fun, for some people, to deduce how the rules would affect the game world. For example, if a city doesn't have enough adjacent farmland to support it you can asume that: (A) crops are more bountiful in Golarion than their Earth counterparts; (B) the city imports from other areas. If you go with the former (A) you can have an adventure about whatever makes the crops more bountiful being disrupted. If you go with the later (B) you can have an plot hook about food caravans being raided.

- While reaping and sowing were labor intensive, tending the fields wasn't. Meaning that farmers had, relatively speaking, a lot free time between harvests.

Humbly,
Yawar


What kind of things are in a basic basket?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
2) NPCs don't have the same rules as PCs.

But you do want them to usually run along the same lines, though. If you toss the rules the moment the PCs aren't involved, you create weird situations in the moment ("wait, how did this level 2 Aristocrat with no connections, no wealth, no divine patron, etc. just resurrect spontaneously, teleport across the continent and incinerate this city?" - an over-the-top example to illustrate the point) as well as lasting changes in how the world is viewed by the players. I assume it's a playstyle difference, but I wouldn't want to play a game where the moment things are out of initiative order or out of line of sight, no rules apply; at least not unless I was specifically only there for a gauntlet of fights with nothing else attached.

Quote:
We're playing a fantasy game, everything is made up.

Yes, and? I think you misread the argument you're responding to with this.

Quote:
Just because YOU can't come up with plot hooks in a fantasy setting regarding this doesn't mean they don't exist, your option just has different plot hooks.

This just comes across as pointlessly aggressive. How is this a reasonable response to "this will produce cool new plot hooks"? Ixal having a different view on what would be good for the setting doesn't give you a carte blanche for this kind of 'well, technically, it's not an insult' type of response.

Silver Crusade

YourNewShoe wrote:
an over-the-top example to illustrate the point
It doesn’t illustrate it, it misses it point blank. We were talking about farm magic. I haven’t had any players go “I demand access to the NPCs super farm magic powers!”, because they’re not farmers, so not that relevant.
YourNewShoe wrote:
Yes, and? I think you misread the argument you're responding to with this.
I did not. I flat out disagree that creating elements restrict a story, the opposite even.
YourNewShoe wrote:
This just comes across as pointlessly aggressive. How is this a reasonable response to "this will produce cool new plot hooks"? Ixal having a different view on what would be good for the setting doesn't give you a carte blanche for this kind of 'well, technically, it's not an insult' type of response.

Thank you for your concern new person who hasn’t had multiple arguments dealing with Ixal over the years.

My response was cromulent. Ixal treats their opinion as fact, when they are usually wrong, on lots of things. Can the restrictions they want make plot hooks? Sure? Make better plot hooks? Purely opinion, not fact, and not something people agree with.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
It doesn’t illustrate it, it misses it point blank. We were talking about farm magic. I haven’t had any players go “I demand access to the NPCs super farm magic powers!”, because they’re not farmers, so not that relevant.

The specific thing you were replying to was:

Quote:
Sure, Golarion has magic, but the core books are very clear what magic is capable off unless you go superhigh mythic NPC level

So even with 'farm magic' is the origin point, there's two degrees of expansion here - first into 'magic', then into 'rules', at which point the principle of whether NPCs are bound by the same or highly similar rules to the PCs (including e.g. what magic they can do) is coming into play.

And, personally, while the specific example of farm magic hasn't come up, vague plot-powered Mage Handwave magic is something that bothers me, both as a GM and a player, because it puts pressure on the illusion of the game world being, well, a world. At the end of the day we all know that none of it's real, but I like to make as robust an agreed-on false reality as I reasonably can. It's not everyone's cup of tea, of course, and when things are on the chopping block it is sometimes a question between something more fantastical and evocative or something that adheres more to the illusion, but it's what I prefer.

So when I read "NPCs don't have the same rules as PCs", my mind goes to the kind of problems I'd see in that idea taken to its extreme.

Quote:
I did not. I flat out disagree that creating elements restrict a story, the opposite even.

It seems counterproductive to say "it's fantasy, everything is made up" when you mean "the ability to make things up in service of the story is one of fantasy's strengths, and curtailing it in service of what's at best a lesser good is nonsensical", to me. It's almost like you're strawmanning yourself, when your actual position is a lot stronger.

Quote:
My response was cromulent. Ixal treats their opinion as fact, when they are usually wrong, on lots of things.

I mean, so does everyone? Despite the effort I put into doing so in my post, "this is just my view and I see how one could have a different one" is not my default method of communication, because it's a lot of energy expended into an implication which should always be there: obviously, I believe what I'm saying is correct, so I will act as though it is.

In your own replies, you do the same. It'd be pointless and silly, but I could go after you for saying my example missed the point, because after all that's just your subjective assessment of the situation. Except, of course, that my own position is the exact same thing, making the exercise pointless aside from creating "gotcha!"s and making people spend more time saying "...but that's just my opinion, of course".

Quote:
Can the restrictions they want make plot hooks? Sure? Make better plot hooks? Purely opinion, not fact, and not something people agree with.

Part of what brought me to reply in the first place was my beef with what seems to be the underlying mindset of a lot of the "ah, but that's just your opinion!"-type responses I've seen, and with the result of them being brought to bear: a suffocation (to be dramatic) of the kind of discussion I find very interesting. Yes, it's opinion vs opinion on whether a setting that adheres closely to an internal logic based on analogous periods in history (with allowances made for specific changes due to fantastical elements) is better, or if a more fantastical world that cuts away the baggage of history and our world in order to better immerse itself in the things you couldn't get on Earth is actually superior.

But people talking about those, and why they prefer whichever thing they do, is more interesting and more productive than simply chalking everything up to taste and leaving it. At least, that's how I see it - and of course you won't always get the ideal situation (and AFAICT at least some of the 'it's just opinions!' response is in reaction to past experiences of continued discussion going badly), but to me, the idea of learning why people like things I don't like, as well as having to formulate why I like the things I like, is one worth pursuing.

Silver Crusade

YourNewShoe wrote:
So when I read "NPCs don't have the same rules as PCs", my mind goes to the kind of problems I'd see in that idea taken to its extreme.
That’s a you thing though, since “NPCs don’t follow PC rules” covers a loooooooooot of different things, in this case farm magic. Which PCs have no reason to have.
YourNewShoe wrote:
It seems counterproductive to say "it's fantasy, everything is made up" when you mean "the ability to make things up in service of the story is one of fantasy's strengths, and curtailing it in service of what's at best a lesser good is nonsensical", to me. It's almost like you're strawmanning yourself, when your actual position is a lot stronger.
K?
YourNewShoe wrote:
I mean, so does everyone?
No, most people voice their opinion as opinion. Ixal pushes their view as the absolute correct way to make and play the game and if you don’t agree you’re doing it wrong, to both players and the writers.
YourNewShoe wrote:
At least, that's how I see it.

And if you want to have fun with Ixal, feel free. The rest of us are tired of them. This isn’t something that happened over night.


Incidentally I am disappointed to note that the links provided are unfortunately broken. Undoubtedly find this site holds other resources about medieval pop culture, but the specific links in question appear to be empty.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Incidentally I am disappointed to note that the links provided are unfortunately broken. Undoubtedly find this site holds other resources about medieval pop culture, but the specific links in question appear to be empty.

For some reason the board added an additional whitespace in those links.

Lets try again:
food production
Structure of cities
Mining

As for the strawmans from Rysky, he either is unable or unwilling to read and comprehend posts.
No, its not that Golarion has to mirror the history of Earth (but lets be honest, it does copy many societies, etc. but this is a other issue), but that the way the world works it made some practices a necessity and that includes how much time and energy was devoted to farming and where those farms are located.
When you run a simple hack&slash game where the only concern of the players is to find the next dungeon then sure you can say "its fantasy" and "a wizard did it" and be done with it.
But you are missing out on a lot of flavor and potential plot points. When you say that there is large scale weather magic the question arises who casts and maintains this magic? What else can this magic be used for? Quench fires? Hinder approaching armies with constant rains or maybe even hail? What social position and power do those weather mages have? After all they are the lifeblood of the society. What if they decide to blackmail nobles with it?


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Ah! Excitement!

As far as a random nod toward the probability of weather mages blackmailing their country's nobility, I'd have to say in all probability there would be no cause for this as most likely they would be members of the nobility... Whether they use that status to blackmail each other though is another matter.

(Subnote, I've not been around here very long but I think Rysky is a woman, though it is too late now to correct pronouns.)

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