Well, those are indeed solutions.
Saying Acrobat/Rogue Dedication and level 8+ class feats is a solution is like saying a caster dedication and Moment of Clarity is a solution for an Animal Barbarian. "Don't worry guys, Animal Barbarians have ranged spell support."
I wouldn't say the Animal Barbarian supports that, though, nor would I say the Animal Barbarian supports being a pet class, despite the fact that they could take Beastmaster or Familiar Master archetypes.
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I asked my player what they wanted to play and they said a Swashbuckler.
And when I showed them how the Class worked and how to gain/spend panache, they fell in love.
I have had more new players on Witches than any other caster and they've had no issues.
I even have a person that's never played DnD ever playing an Investigator (who they also love).
What's the point of introducing classes to fill niches people want to play if it comes with "Ye need not enter!" signs on the way.
The fact is, if you want to play an Investigator/Detective type, the Class for you is Investigator and if you want to play a Swashbuckler, the class you want to play is Swashbuckler.
And for the record, when the Swashbuckler was released I advocated for a name change for this exact reason, because as soon as I tell players Swashbuckler exists, if they want to play that character archetype they are just going to pick that Class.
Now the person in question on Swashbuckler is a big boy and can probably handle being told to pick certain skills, but they are also coming from 5E as a prior edition (where they LOVED how different this is). It's just going to feel like taking the wind out of the sails when I explain "so with the good comes the bad, you have to max these or you become irrelevant".
As always, the things I get most vocal about directly involve players at my tables. This is no exception. In general, I don't like to have to make houserules and most of my players don't like when I make them purely to "help" their characters, as it comes off as "coddling" in a sense.
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I wholeheartedly disagree on this. Witch isn't exactly advanced compared to Wizard. Oracle, maybe, because of the curse, but it's not really that difficult. Swashbuckler, in play, is super easy and smooth. Investigator is really the only one I'd consider possibly "advanced" in comparison.TBH I consider the classes of the Advanced Player's Guide to be indeed advanced and thus not beginner-friendly.
And, I just now realize that the name of the book is why the 3rd category of weapons is Advanced. Epiphany.
I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. I would say that the Panache and Finisher mechanics are more complicated than anything the core martials have (Hunt Prey, Rage, or Flurry of Blow, etc.) But it's not to difficult to figure out movement and using Delay to optimize debuffing.
But our experience isn't universal. Midnightoker has described the Swashbuckler's focus on two skill as a trap option, since novice players might not realize they need to increase those skills. Another forumgoer has said he and his player struggled to keep track or panache and finisher, could not counter enemy strategies (invisibility, flight, etc.), and compared it unfavorably to the rouge and barbarian class.
I don't agree with the above views, but people do think that the Swashbuckler asks more of its player than other non-APG martials.
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I asked my player what they wanted to play and they said a Swashbuckler.
And when I showed them how the Class worked and how to gain/spend panache, they fell in love.
I have had more new players on Witches than any other caster and they've had no issues.
I even have a person that's never played DnD ever playing an Investigator (who they also love).
What's the point of introducing classes to fill niches people want to play if it comes with "Ye need not enter!" signs on the way.
The fact is, if you want to play an Investigator/Detective type, the Class for you is Investigator and if you want to play a Swashbuckler, the class you want to play is Swashbuckler.
And for the record, when the Swashbuckler was released I advocated for a name change for this exact reason, because as soon as I tell players Swashbuckler exists, if they want to play that character archetype they are just going to pick that Class.
Now the person in question on Swashbuckler is a big boy and can probably handle being told to pick certain skills, but they are also coming from 5E as a prior edition (where they LOVED how different this is). It's just going to feel like taking the wind out of the sails when I explain "so with the good comes the bad, you have to max these or you become irrelevant".
As always, the things I get most vocal about directly involve players at my tables. This is no exception. In general, I don't like to have to make houserules and most of my players don't like when I make them purely to "help" their characters, as it comes off as "coddling" in a sense.
I do not really undertand how the player can love that the Swashbuckler puts such an importance on some skills and expect it to continue to perform without further investment in said skills. Investing to stay relevant is core to PF2.
If they expect the skills to auto-increase, the Acrobat dedication is the thing closest to this. And if they never consider gaining another dedication, then it is a single Class feat investment.
Otherwise, maybe it is time for free archetype for all, which is an officially endorsed variant, so no houserule involved.
Hope I do not appear dismissive here. Just trying to find official ways to help your player keep on having a great time with their Swashbuckler.
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I do not really undertand how the player can love that the Swashbuckler puts such an importance on some skills and expect it to continue to perform without further investment in said skills.
They like the aspect of using fancy actions to get their damage. The fact that those actions require Skill usage is the byproduct of the kits foundation.
They understand what a Feint is, they understand what Tumble Through does. What isn't clear is that those two actions need constant attention in order to be usable against enemies.
Investing to stay relevant is core to PF2.
Investing to stay relevant is not core to PF2 and I task you to find anywhere besides Ability Scores where it's present.
And even in the case of ability scores, the differential possible at level 20 is -2 if you neglect to invest past 18 further.
If they expect the skills to auto-increase
Let me stop you right there, that's not what they expect.
The expectation of all characters is they do not become worse as they level.
If you don't think you should get stronger as you level, then you are unique, because even those with no TTRPG experience understand level goes up, power goes up, as its common in any game.
The fact for Swashbuckler is not only do you not get any better at Feinting/Tumbling as you level, you actually could get worse if you don't continue to raise them. And in the case of the "Skill not chosen" you do get worse because by level 3 you are expected to have Expert in your respective Skill with respect to enemies.
This is the functional nature of not granting resources to support something which you are required to support, it eats into your other resources.
Every other Class does not have their main class features contingent on feeding a resource at every level possible (and in this case two funnels for that resource).
Otherwise, maybe it is time for free archetype for all, which is an officially endorsed variant, so no houserule involved.
It is a houserule and it's a little late for me to change 5 characters all so Swashbuckler doesn't feel sad.
And this particular swashbuckler, as I pointed out earlier, wants to be an Aldori Duelist.
You know, an ideal pairing for Swashbuckler. Selecting Acrobat is not the solution to every problem and I would really appreciate it if you stopped presenting it as if it were some Class Feat that's a no-brainer for people to take.
Narratively, you should not be required to be an Acrobat just to be a good Swashbuckler because not all Swashbucklers in pop-culture are Acrobats.
Hope I do not appear dismissive here. Just trying to find official ways to help your player keep on having a great time with their Swashbuckler.
Rest assured, I don't take it as being dismissive, but given this particular scenario the solution is to nudge them to select the Skills they need and that's pretty much all that can be done without houserules or changes to the whole group.
They are all level 1 right now, so it won't be an issue until later on anyways, and I would call this particular game relatively casual, so it isn't a problem yet. At level 3/4/5 I may make adjustments, but for now I'll just enjoy playing with my friends.
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Investing to stay relevant is core to PF2.Investing to stay relevant is not core to PF2 and I task you to find anywhere besides Ability Scores where it's present.
And even in the case of ability scores, the differential possible at level 20 is -2 if you neglect to invest past 18 further.
If you do not invest in a skill, say Stealth, you will still be able to beat low level enemies' Perception, but the higher level enemies you're now facing ? Low chance for that.
And level-based DC skills such as Medicine mandate keeping on investing in them even more.
Investing in higher level Striking Runes and +x Runes is also necessary in the system.
Not to mention buying better skill items.
If they expect the skills to auto-increaseLet me stop you right there, that's not what they expect.
The expectation of all characters is they do not become worse as they level.
If you don't think you should get stronger as you level, then you are unique, because even those with no TTRPG experience understand level goes up, power goes up, as its common in any game.
The fact for Swashbuckler is not only do you not get any better at Feinting/Tumbling as you level, you actually could get worse if you don't continue to raise them. And in the case of the "Skill not chosen" you do get worse because by level 3 you are expected to have Expert in your respective Skill with respect to enemies.
You do not get worse, if only because of the + level bonus. But if you are facing higher-level foes, not raising your required skill will indeed result in more frequent failure.
Anyway, I feel we are drifting away from the Swashbuckler's specific case here.
I hope you can find a way to keep your games fun for all of you.
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I would say when the roll you are against is by definition an "on-level" check, then you do get worse. And in the case of the Stealth analogy, sure, but being good at Stealth is optional even for the Rogue. It's not optional for a Swashbuckler to be bad at Tumble/Style Skill.
You either have to accept one of two things:
1. It's okay for the Swashbuckler to be able to choose wrong despite the consequences of losing all of your innate Class Features
2. It is not a choice, it's an illusion of choice, and the Swashbuckler has 1/3 the options for Skill Increases
And neither of the above are good things to me and neither of the above situations is present in a Class design.
It may be present in certain builds that choose to focus on a specific aspect, but no innate Class design compells a person to specifically increase their main Class Feature.
Alchemist - Crafting not required to use Alchemical items, their main Class feature. You gain Class DC increases for free.
Bard - No Performance is required to cast any spells. You gain Spell DC increases for free.
Barbarian - No check is required to Rage and your Rage damage and Totem benefits increase as you level for free.
Champion - No check is required to have your Ally, use your Reaction, or have Heavy Armor and your proficiency with armor and Ally progress as you level
Cleric - No check is required to cast Spells or use Focus spells or your Font and your Class DCs increase as you level
Druid - No check is required to use focus spells or to cast any spells and your Class DCs increase as you level
Fighter - No check and your proficiencies increase as you level for free
Investigator - DaS stay relevant at all points of the game on its own and Studied Strike damage increases as you level. No checks required.
Monk - Proficiencies increase, Stances never lose value even if you only grab the initial Feat, and no check is required.
Oracle - No check required to use Focus spells or spells and both scale as you level, including your Mystery/Curse
Ranger - No check required to use Hunt Prey and your Edge scales as you level as well as your other proficiencies
Rogue - No check required to get Sneak Attack, provides multiple in game non-check ways to trigger FF and SA damage scales as you level
Sorcerer - See other casters. Same story.
Witch - See other casters. Same story. In fact, main feature is Hexes/Familiar which both scale as you level without investment required.
Wizard - See other casters. Same story.
Now, let's look at what abilities are contingent on Swashbuckler spending Skill Increases on only the Skills they are required to max:
- Panache itself
- Precise Strike
- Vivacious Speed
- All Finishers
- Continous Flair
- A slew of Class Feats
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So when I say "it's not the same", it's pretty easy to see why. Just look at the above. Every other Class in the game keeps and maintains a level of viability regardless of what choices they make as the game progresses. A level of viability that the Swashbuckler pales in comparison to.
It's not debatable. It's a fact.
Is the issue more that "a swashbuckler cannot effectively dabble, because so many of their skill increases are spoken for" or "2 or the 3 skills a swashbuckler will maximize are spoken for."
Since I might be inclined to homebrew "pick a skill and become trained in it" as an add-on to "Stylish Tricks". It's not like Acrobatics and Deception/Intimidation/Athletics are bad skills to maximize though the battledancer is in a bit of trouble here since Performance does little for non-bards.
Is the issue more that "a swashbuckler cannot effectively dabble, because so many of their skill increases are spoken for" or "2 or the 3 skills a swashbuckler will maximize are spoken for."
Since I might be inclined to homebrew "pick a skill and become trained in it" as an add-on to "Stylish Tricks". It's not like Acrobatics and Deception/Intimidation/Athletics are bad skills to maximize though the battledancer is in a bit of trouble here since Performance does little for non-bards.
To be honest, I also hate the "You lose half your action agency" aspect that occurs during the tier levels (3/7/15) but I could swallow that if that was all there was to it. I'm sure there are moments where using the other is still more viable (high Reflex save for Tumble, high Will for Demoralize/BonMot, etc.)
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Is the issue more that "a swashbuckler cannot effectively dabble, because so many of their skill increases are spoken for" or "2 or the 3 skills a swashbuckler will maximize are spoken for."
Probably a bit of both, to be honest. A big part of it is just that, based on class path selection alone, the Swashbuckler's skill investment largely becomes a known quantity. To some extent the Swashbuckler just loses a vector of customization open to other classes.
The Inventor has a similar problem I hope they figure out a way to address as they revise it for release.
FWIW though, I did have a Swashbuckler in a game I ran who didn't invest in Acrobatics at all and he didn't completely hate it. His character struggled a bit in general, but his biggest difficulties were more with the Swashbuckler's overall mediocrity than specifically because he didn't invest in Acrobatics.
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Everyone else has one that they might want, at most. Even Wizard can literally get by without any Arcana.
Orders of magnitude is completely accurate.
Uh, 2 is NOT orders of magnitude higher than 0. Its 1/2 an order of magnitude higher.
I know, actually caring about what words mean is the sign of a pedant. So. I'm a pedant.
Honestly, I feel like you can get by without even maxing your relevant skills. The gap between optimized and not is a lot smaller than in PF1. Sure, it might be sub-par, but sub-par doesn't kill your character anymore. And anyway, you can strike a balance between maxing and no skill increases.
Everyone else has one that they might want, at most. Even Wizard can literally get by without any Arcana.
Orders of magnitude is completely accurate.
Uh, 2 is NOT orders of magnitude higher than 0. Its 1/2 an order of magnitude higher.
I know, actually caring about what words mean is the sign of a pedant. So. I'm a pedant.
It is also defined as "relative size, quantity, quality, etc."
And the fact is that a standard character has 200% more choices of Skill increases.
And as for "don't max Skills", ha. Ha HA HA. Ha.
Imagine if the Fighter could choose not to elevate his proficiency. Guess how effective he'd be at hitting with a -4 in the late game. A 40% difference of success in PF2.
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Honestly, I feel like you can get by without even maxing your relevant skills. The gap between optimized and not is a lot smaller than in PF1. Sure, it might be sub-par, but sub-par doesn't kill your character anymore. And anyway, you can strike a balance between maxing and no skill increases.
Each point matters in PF2 so subpar makes it harder to gain Panache, and with out Panache you can't use your class features like Precise Strike and your finishers... A subpar skill Swashbuckler would feel like a Barbarian that might not be able to rage or a ranger that might not be able to hunt prey because they had to roll skill checks to get those abilities [and having those be subpar rolls]: when you need skill rolls for your basic class abilities, subpar really doesn't cut it. If you where talking about any other class, I could se your point but the Swashbuckler... That's just asking for a bad time.
Honestly, I feel like you can get by without even maxing your relevant skills. The gap between optimized and not is a lot smaller than in PF1. Sure, it might be sub-par, but sub-par doesn't kill your character anymore. And anyway, you can strike a balance between maxing and no skill increases.
A +2 bonus, increases the chance of a suucessful result by about 2 casess on a d20 out of maybe 10 successful result numbers. So it is about a 20% increase in being successful in an action you likely attempt every round.
If your GM is taking it easy on you are having fun with slightly dialled back encounters - a good idea at times. You will be fine with it.
But otherwise unless your character enjoys complaining about being unlucky I think you want the bonus.
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Also the style Skill will often be -1 compared to Acrobatics since the attribute starts at 16 (vs DEX at 18).
Note however that the roll you need to successfully Tumble through (if you continuously increase Acrobatics) goes down with levels.
So, you will get the same chance of gaining panache this way through your levels even if not completely maximizing Acrobatics.
Or, if maximizing it, you will definitely increase your chance of gaining panache. Definitely getting better at your main thing as you level up.
From the discussion thread on Superbidis guide to the Swashbuckler :
I'm going to tell him to try focusing on finishers. He was doing that at first, but missing those checks to get panache back was messing up his damage. Random dice rolls against high reflex creatures using Tumble Through was a real problem. He has Bon Mot now, so that let's him attack two saves which should improve his ability to get back Panache.Roughly, at level 1 you Tumble Through on a 9 and at level 20 on a 2 (for an average enemy of your level, of course there are variations). So, at level 1, you may end up not being able to build Panache against a high Reflex enemy when at level 20 this will be a rarity, issues building Panache is really a low level one (before level 7).
Yeah on level opponents go down as you level in a perfect max situation but other classes have compensation and not increasing it is a huge drop in DPR. To compete with other martials at that stage of the game, where most get action boosts out the wazzoo and large damage increases, swashbucklers get panache triggering more often due to action constraints.
But that’s against on level, and above level it’s not that easy, and the concern was never “the Swashbuckler can’t get high enough to be successful if they max their skills” it has always been “they don’t get enough skills to compensate for their skill requirements where every other class gets choice in the matter”.
It’s the only class feature that by default drains from a non class resource (a choice).