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It's super late and I can't sleep, so I'm subjecting all of you to what my brain is doing instead of resting :p
TLDR: I think scatter/blunderbuss looks neat and would be interested in seeing what you all think about it as it is now and what possible feat support to interact with the scatter trait you might want to see in the future.
A lot of discussion has been centered around the relative power level of guns, the fatal trait, reloading, and how all of that relates to the gunslinger class as presented, but I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion on the scatter trait. In my own, admittedly limited, play of a gunslinger, I focused on the iconic dueling pistol using the way of the pistolero rather than using what I initially assessed to be a more niche weapon in the blunderbuss. However, looking at it again, I think that blunderbuss as written might be a lot of fun with proper feat support.
I'd like to get a read on the general thoughts of you folks about the scatter trait in general and the blunderbuss in specific, how you feel it currently performs, and on some general proposals on feats for the gunslinger to better make use of it (because a Doc Holiday shotgun slinger sounds like a fun idea).
Looking at the scatter trait, it appears to do two things. The first is increase the effective damage of the weapon by the equivalent of a die size (something very useful for the otherwise low damage on guns in general). The second is to transform your ranged weapon into a reach+ weapon with some minor aoe damage attached. The extra scatter damage is a bit of a double-edged sword in that you're probably not going to be the only character that wants to be close to the action and friendly fire becomes a concern. On the other hand, it is a bit of minor damage to help whittle down crowds. This gives the blunderbuss the equivalent of a d10 damage die, putting it at a higher non-critical damage than the musket (with Firearm Ace) or arquebus, and putting its average damage at the same level as a standard crossbow (with crossbow ace) with the added benefit of actually having some traits, including some minor damage on a miss. You most likely won't be out-damaging a fighter or ranger with a composite bow any time soon, but the consistency of the damage is attractive, especially considering the swingy nature of its fellow firearms.
There is currently only one feat that directly interacts with scatter; Scatter Blast. For the low low price of using two actions to strike and turning a failure into a critical failure due to the wording of misfire, causing you to damage yourself and everyone within 20ft as well as breaking your gun, you can increase the range of a blunderbuss, and thus the length of its scatter cone, up to 30ft. I feel like the risk vs. reward for this feat makes it not really worth taking (I just don't want to break my gun and possibly kill my party members on a failed attack), but there is another feat that, while not specifically focused on scatter, could have an interesting interaction with the trait; Alchemical Shot. Presumably the persistent damage wouldn't affect the splash damage of the weapon, but being able to deal elemental damage in a cone to take advantage of vulnerabilities could be handy. I'd like to give credit where it's due here, as @Unicore pointed out the interaction between Alchemical Shot and scatter here.
As it is, scatter/blunderbuss aren't super impressive, but looking at some of the alchemist's bomb splash feats got me thinking about how the scatter trait could pan out with similar support. With Calculated Splash, an alchemist replaces the standard splash damage of a bomb with their primary class attribute. A similar feat for a gunslinger might not replace the scatter damage with the gunslinger's primary attribute bonus considering that dexterity is kind of a super stat and there's not a restriction on the number of scatter shots you can make in a day like there is for alchemists' bombs, but adding something like a gunslinger's wisdom modifier (maybe half wisdom modifier?) to the standard scatter damage could be a way to capitalize on the scatter trait through feat support. Likewise, a feat that improves the length of the cone by a smaller amount (maybe 5-10ft?) than Scatter Blast as a passive benefit might be one way to go about it.
So what do the rest of you think? Could the blunderbuss or some potential future scatter weapon make an effective primary weapon? Would you like to see more class feats that interact with the trait, or is it something that you feel like you wouldn't really bother with in game?
Besides getting a specific way for scatter weapons I would like to see some things.
A concentrated shot, where you forgo the cone damage (or reduce it to 5ft around the target) in exchange of more damage and/or more range.
Another would be a press feat were you don't roll attack at all. You do splash damage directly, but does more splash damage and maybe has more range.
Also giving scatter weapon gunslingers great ways of increasing mobility might be a good idea, as they will need to move as much as drifters if not more.
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Both pistoleros and snipers can make good use of a blunderbuss.
The blunderbuss is nearly like a short range burst, variable damage magic missile when used with alchemical shot. Use the right ammunition and the gun is going to be a swarm destroyer. Honestly, a lot of fighters might want one as a back up weapon if their strong enough to carry such a heavy one as a back up. Even without feat support.
I’d like for additional blunderbuss feats to focus on being intimidating with them.
I don’t think they need their own special way so much as not being excluded from existing ways. It would be nice if 2 of the ways didn’t have features pushing you to only use 1 handed fire arms. A drifter with a blunderbuss and kicks feels like it should be really awesome narratively.
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Leaving the numbers side be for a minute, I really like the concept. It is a bit niche in its practicality, but I see a lot of potential. Definitely primary weapon material.
Give it a way or make it a viable choice for a couple of ways. An alchemy way or a modified drifter seem like good candidates. I'm more for a specialised way, simply because this will require a very different playstyle than anything else. Drifters want to be directly in melee, Pistoleros want to be at the maximum of their first range increment (30-40ft) and sniper wants to be in the next postcode or preferably on another planet entirely. I don't see a lot of overlap that would allow for shared deeds. Maybe with the promised introduction of bayonets and butt strikes, but I'm not positive on that.
Feat-wise, the idea of taking a piece of the alchemist's bomber feat chain also seems appropriate. I don't know about WIS for damage scaling, as the gunslinger is more of a CHA class to me. That would also play into possible ranged feinting shenanigans and differentiate the class more from the ranger. But feats playing off the scatter trait is a must in any case.
As you pointed out, currently the only really good feat specifically for scatter guns is Alchemical Shot. It's probably not an intended interaction, as only the Strike deals the persistent damage, not the splash damage; However, it seems too appropriate and fun not to have something like this. Tracking persistent damage is a pain in the butt and with this you can stack the hell out of different types on several enemies, but damn if this isn't how you make a niche weapon viable.
All in all, I would like to see what can be done with this ^^
Rather than Scatter be a weapon trait on a gun, I'd rather see it as a special ammunition. Let the scatter damage equal the number of weapon dice on the gun.
I actually recommended this; basically make the blunderbuss' normal shot splash only the target (since buckshot does actually scatter a little), and let them load scatter shot to get the cone
Rather than Scatter be a weapon trait on a gun, I'd rather see it as a special ammunition. Let the scatter damage equal the number of weapon dice on the gun.I actually recommended this; basically make the blunderbuss' normal shot splash only the target (since buckshot does actually scatter a little), and let them load scatter shot to get the cone
Alternatively, there could also be different versions of the scatter trait. Something like "scatter l" and "scatter c", with the former being a line and the latter being a cone. This way we could simulate the difference between weapons that are intended to spread a lot (the sawed-off shotgun stereotype) and those that have a much tighter spread (long hunting shotguns).
Ammo is something I would use more for damage types and magical stuff like current magic ammunition. Traits are more of a weapon and feat thing.
Scatter L would almost certainly have to double the range increment or something, but even then, a real life shotgun can load both types of shells. Imo, it's totally, 100% okay to give martials versatility that isn't dependent on magic, and instead make consumables those ESPECIALLY cool bullets you bust out on the big bad, or on his mooks, in the case of a hypothetical dragon breath shell
Scatter L would almost certainly have to double the range increment or something, but even then, a real life shotgun can load both types of shells. Imo, it's totally, 100% okay to give martials versatility that isn't dependent on magic, and instead make consumables those ESPECIALLY cool bullets you bust out on the big bad, or on his mooks, in the case of a hypothetical dragon breath shell
I wouldn't have a problem with it.
But isn't the spread primarily affected by the choke and the length of the barrel? From my admittedly theoretical knowledge of guns, a proper long-barrel hunting shotgun with a narrow choke will spread way less than a short-barrelled shotgun even with the same ammunition.
Edit: [Whoops I forgot the actual blunderbuss]. With a blunderbuss you literally load round lead balls and powder. The accuracy comes entirely from how much and how evenly you compress the powder, which is why you put a wad or just some brush into it. So with this it would actually be part of the ammunition, at least in a broader sense.
So I guess it is pretty 50/50 and depends on what level of tech we are talking about. Martial firearms would make sense with ammo, advanced (double barrel comes to mind) with the specific weapon.
The choke really does play a big role in the scatter, but, buckshot doesn't spray as much as birdshot to my knowledge.
I certainly won't be upset if they decide to do ammo types as consumables, but I do like the idea of there being mundane and cheap alternate ammo. Consumables are kinda pricy in 2e, so I kinda dont want to see something as mundane as "your scattering weapon can shoot further but only hit one target" locked behind them
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I don't think Buckshot versus Birdshot is worth parsing, but the ability to load slugs (double range with no splash) might be.
Michael Sayre seems to be very well versed in guns in general, so I trust him to come up with something satisfying to differentiate the three if he feels it is worth the page space.
I keep proposing the trait "grazing" where you deal 1 damage per die on a miss as an alternative to Fatal; since splash damage also deals that exact damage on a miss, scatter is allowing me to test my theory. So far it does feel good to me when fighting bosses, less so on mooks given gunslingers are probably going to at least hit anyways, so the combination of fatal (or at least Deadly) and grazing on martial firearms might work better.
My spreadsheet says a balanced weapon would be to add the grazing trait to the 3 simple firearms, relabel them martial, and call it a day.
A drifter with a blunderbuss and kicks feels like it should be really awesome narratively.
Funny enough, I'm playtesting the blunderbuss using a Drifter Tengu, using his beak as his unarmed melee weapon to free up his hands for the gun. It's working pretty well for me; I'm using a +1 dueling pistol for basic fights and a striking blunderbuss for bosses. I'm sad that Reloading Strike doesn't work well enough; after the playtest I'm going to modify the feat so that it does work with this style of play but for now he picked up Cauterize wounds instead (though I'm contemplating getting the Alchemist Dedication).
I think a more interesting and less strange mechanic than grazing for all fire arms (since a miss with a gun feels like it would be the same as a miss with an arrow), would be to play with some kind of debuff from the loud noise of firearm, on anything but a critical failure.
I think a more interesting and less strange mechanic than grazing for all fire arms (since a miss with a gun feels like it would be the same as a miss with an arrow), would be to play with some kind of debuff from the loud noise of firearm, on anything but a critical failure.
Why isn't such a debuff affecting you and your allies? If you say 'well you're used to it', they would you then be immune if a foe used a 'loud' firearm vs you?
I think a more interesting and less strange mechanic than grazing for all fire arms (since a miss with a gun feels like it would be the same as a miss with an arrow), would be to play with some kind of debuff from the loud noise of firearm, on anything but a critical failure.Why isn't such a debuff affecting you and your allies? If you say 'well you're used to it', they would you then be immune if a foe used a 'loud' firearm vs you?
I was just saying that if fire arms were going to do anything on a miss, it would be better if it wasn't tied to the projectile "nearly" hitting the enemy because there is really no mechanical reason for that. But maybe it would be alright if fire arms did one point of sonic damage per weapon die to one target they were pointed at on anything except a miss. Then the logic would be that it comes from having the gun fired at you specifically.
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Sound from a gun isn’t really channeled like that though (edit: no reason it can’t be, since fantasy guns). Heat and concussive force both are, as a result of the gunpowder explosion channeled by the guns barrel.
That’s why a starter pistol, which doesn’t actually fire a projectile, can still injure or even kill from a short enough range. Same with blank bullets.
I do understand what you mean about how an arrow might arguably have a similar property, but “bullet burn” is a myth tied to guns, not bows. Plus, bows are already in the game. Guns aren’t, and would require no revision to work differently.
Besides, I can imagine arrows with a grazing mechanic too. Seems like a logical thing for alchemists to make.
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Despite the risk of returning this thread to the scatter mechanic, I want to chime in with my experience playtesting with a blunderbuss in PFS scenario 2-10.
I ran a level 5 Pistolero Razortooth Goblin with Sword and Pistol, Risky Reload, and Alchemical Shot. The dice were hot, so out of the 14 gun attacks I made, I crit 10 of them, hit 3, and missed 1. Despite this, I did not feel like a damage god. I felt like the only reason I was the big damage source was that the other two martials were rolling poorly.
So I went back and recorded all of my attacks from the game log. I did roll pretty badly for damage, rolling average or above only five times. I consistently rolled 16 or higher on my gun attacks which combined with a nerf-wizard to make me crit constantly. That said, when my average crit is 20 damage to my primary target at level 5, I feel like I am not getting rewarded for picking a two handed melee-adjacent weapon. "But scatter does damage in an AoE, and even on a miss!" Yeah, mysterious voice, that 2 damage was applied to my non-primary target 3 times (not counting times it hurt allies) and I missed once. Scatter doesn't get scaled by crit so the extra proficiency doesn't help the near-negligible damage either.
The short range led me to try a tooth-and-gun style build, but Sword and Pistol doesn't do enough to make that worth it (which has been discussed plenty elsewhere, but I wanted to run it through its paces any way). As a result, I made one bite attack in the adventure despite being in melee constantly. I think Sword and Pistol being bad has a strong effect on how good blunderbusses can be since they are so up close and personal.
How do I think scatter can be fixed? Double scatter damage and give us a better scatter gun at advanced. Or if you just want to fix the gun you can make the blunderbuss deadly, and still give us the advanced scatter gun. I like the first one more because I feel that scatter guns should not be crit oriented, as there are plenty of crit guns and scatter doesn't reward accuracy.
At the end of the day, I want to feel like my two-handed gun with a 15 foot range does better damage than a trident, since the trident is one handed and out ranges the gun.
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I feel like the fire lance should be treated the same way; modular is cool, but a dagger does the same damage and range, still gets str to damage, and can make actual melee attacks that don't provoke