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So I'm working on developing a model to prove how useless critical hit effects are (I've personally only ever seen one have in impact on a fight twice ever), but while I was working on it the thought occurred to me that a nice solution might be something like:
Once per ten minute rest you can activate your weapon's special effect as a swift action. Your next attack with that weapon has a chance to inflict the critical hit effect of your weapon on your target. If you do this, your weapon loses its critical hit effect until the next time you rest for 10 minutes.
The chance to inflict the effect is equal to 25% for: [Low impact effects]. It is 15% for [High impact effects].
I think the easiest way might be some sort of improved critical feat.
You affect the target with your weapon's critical effect on the roll of a 19, this does not do double damage. You can spend 1 resolve at the start of your turn to apply your weapon's critical effect on rolls of 17, 18, and 19 until the start of your next turn. You still only do double damage on a roll of a 20.
Maybe 1/10min, instead of resolve, maybe both. Some crits have no save after all... maybe the feat gives them a save if the roll isn't a 20?
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So I'm working on developing a model to prove how useless critical hit effects are (I've personally only ever seen one have in impact on a fight twice ever), but while I was working on it the thought occurred to me that a nice solution might be something like:
Once per ten minute rest you can activate your weapon's special effect as a swift action. Your next attack with that weapon has a chance to inflict the critical hit effect of your weapon on your target. If you do this, your weapon loses its critical hit effect until the next time you rest for 10 minutes.
The chance to inflict the effect is equal to 25% for: [Low impact effects]. It is 15% for [High impact effects].
I like the idea of trying to make crits more meaningful. (And I’d be interested in hearing how it goes if you try this out.)
At first glance, the main drawback I can think of is this strikes me as the kind of ability that won’t get used often - players will try to save it for the best opportunity, and even then the chance of success is low (they have to hit *and* make a flat 25/15% check). And I guess it’s one more thing to keep track of.
What about using something like the PF2 rules for critical effects? I.e., have critical effects apply on critical hits, or when the attacker beats the target’s AC by 10 or more?
So I'm working on developing a model to prove how useless critical hit effects are (I've personally only ever seen one have in impact on a fight twice ever), but while I was working on it the thought occurred to me that a nice solution might be something like:
Once per ten minute rest you can activate your weapon's special effect as a swift action. Your next attack with that weapon has a chance to inflict the critical hit effect of your weapon on your target. If you do this, your weapon loses its critical hit effect until the next time you rest for 10 minutes.
The chance to inflict the effect is equal to 25% for: [Low impact effects]. It is 15% for [High impact effects].
I like the idea of trying to make crits more meaningful. (And I’d be interested in hearing how it goes if you try this out.)
At first glance, the main drawback I can think of is this strikes me as the kind of ability that won’t get used often - players will try to save it for the best opportunity, and even then the chance of success is low (they have to hit *and* make a flat 25/15% check). And I guess it’s one more thing to keep track of.
What about using something like the PF2 rules for critical effects? I.e., have critical effects apply on critical hits, or when the attacker beats the target’s AC by 10 or more?
I was trying to err on the side of low total value of critical effects, so bringing them from a once per campaign type effect to a "once per session" type effect. Not too sure how Paizo balances them, but it can't be that highly given their astonishing rarity of happening.
If we compare my proposal vs how it stands now, it looks like this:
My proposal:
1. Must hit with the attack (~50%)
2. Must succeed on flat check (~15-25%)
3. Must not kill the enemy with the attack (Close to 95%, especially if used early in combat as you should)
4. Enemy must not:
4.a. Save, if a save is require (~50%)
4.b. Have resistance to the elemental type, e.g. burn (??)
4.c. Be unaffected by the crit effect, e.g. sightless vs blind (??)
5. If an effect that takes place later, the enemy must not be killed before its next turn (somewhere around 60% likelihood)
Currently:
1. Enemy must not be immune to crits e.g. Elementals, Oozes, Swarms (??)
2. Must crit with the attack (5%)
2. Must not kill the enemy with the crit (looking like ~50%)
3. Enemy must not:
3.a. Save, if a save is require (~50%)
3.b. Have resistance to the elemental type, e.g. burn (??)
3.c. Be unaffected by the crit effect, e.g. sightless vs blind
4. If an effect that takes place later, the enemy must not be killed before its next turn (surprisingly common for an already critted enemy ~35%)
So, that starting 5% really locks things down, but the following requirements make the standard crit setup a very rare occurrence. Being able to choose which target you're trying to apply the effect to also greatly helps boost the value.
As for PF2 critical rules, it's super rare to exceed the target's EAC or KAC by 10, I don't think it would help much. However, I do encourage a full conversion to PF2 rules like the SF2 peeps are doing.
I was trying to err on the side of low total value of critical effects, so bringing them from a once per campaign type effect to a "once per session" type effect. Not too sure how Paizo balances them, but it can't be that highly given their astonishing rarity of happening.If we compare my proposal vs how it stands now, it looks like this:
My proposal:
1. Must hit with the attack (~50%)
2. Must succeed on flat check (~15-25%)
3. Must not kill the enemy with the attack (Close to 95%, especially if used early in combat as you should)
4. Enemy must not:
4.a. Save, if a save is require (~50%)
4.b. Have resistance to the elemental type, e.g. burn...
That's a nice breakdown on why the chances of critical effects bearing on combat are so low. I'm not sure these numbers are a direct comparison, because the first set of values yields chances per *attack* of a critical effect on the official approach, while the second set of values yields the chances per *rest-for-stamina* on your approach. To put these on a par, you'd want to take into account the fact that there may be a number of attacks in between each rest-for-stamina.
As for PF2 critical rules, it's super rare to exceed the target's EAC or KAC by 10, I don't think it would help much.
That's a good question. Looking through a couple random enemies from the most recent AP, against 1st level PCs, the enemy ACs are:
EAC 11, KAC 13
EAC 11, KAC 12
EAC 11, KAC 13
EAC 14, KAC 15
A 1st level Soldier with a +5 bonus to hit would have a 25/15% chance of getting a critical effect per attack against the first and third opponents, a 25/20% chance against the second, and a 10/5% chance against the fourth. (And if the target's flat-footed, an Envoy's using Get 'Em, etc, those odds would be even higher.)
Depending on how many attacks they can get off in a session, I'd expect them to get a critical effect once or twice in sessions involving the first three opponents. It's true, though, that they'd have a hard time landing a critical effect against the fourth opponent. (But as a high CR opponent, maybe that's a good thing?)
That's all just white room theorizing, though. I'd have to see it in practice to see how it feels.
What if the baseline critical stays as is, (or adds the beats the AC by 10 from PF2) but in part inspired by what you mentioned. If an individual hits with a weapon that has critical hit effect, but the attack was only a normal success, they have the option to spend their swift action and make a 'confirmation' roll. They make another single roll with the same modifiers and if they hit, they trigger the weapons' critical effect (but the attack is otherwise still treated as a normal success) Then you can't use this ability until you next spend a Resolve Point to rest, or your daily preparation.
That would allow anyone to leverage one of the weapon abilities a bit more often, but the extra times requires a bit of chance and a bit of action investment.
I'd seen critical effects have an impact on the first couple games we played. Granted in some cases it helped turn a battle and allow an opponent to subsequently be taken down. I remember being disappointed that in PF2 the critical specializations were generally locked behind higher level abilities.
I vaguely remember a solarian being able to apply crit effects after a hit, but I don't remember the specific feat/feature/crystal.
Maybe take that as a guideline and turn it into a fusion or magic item anyone can pick up and use?
On of things I have done with Critical Hits is have them come directly off hit points.
Secondly I highly recommend the critical hit deck. It has some meaningful critical effects in there from stun & stagger, to loss of limb, to some save or die potentials.
Critical hits at my table have some bite.
On of things I have done with Critical Hits is have them come directly off hit points.
Secondly I highly recommend the critical hit deck. It has some meaningful critical effects in there from stun & stagger, to loss of limb, to some save or die potentials.
Critical hits at my table have some bite.
Problem is often the fact that they have *too much* of a bite already. Criticals so commonly quickly lead to a monster's death that the extra effects like stun or loss of a limb often have zero impact on the fight.
For example, if an enemy takes 4 hits to kill:
Crit after it got hit 3 times: The crit damage will likely take it out
Crit after it got hit 2 times: The crit damage will possibly take it out
Crit after it got hit 1 times: It only needs to take one more hit (from you or your party) to die before its turn comes around and the crit effects have a chance to matter.
Crit on a fresh enemy: It only needs to take ~two or three hits before its turn for the crit effects not to matter.
Crit effects that are just bonus damage at the start tend to be the best, with ones that rely on more things going right ending up being straight up trap options.
Problem is often the fact that they have *too much* of a bite already. Criticals so commonly quickly lead to a monster's death that the extra effects like stun or loss of a limb often have zero impact on the fight.
For example, if an enemy takes 4 hits to kill:
Crit after it got hit 3 times: The crit damage will likely take it out
Crit after it got hit 2 times: The crit damage will possibly take it out
Crit after it got hit 1 times: It only needs to take one more hit (from you or your party) to die before its turn comes around and the crit effects have a chance to matter.
Crit on a fresh enemy: It only needs to take ~two or three hits before its turn for the crit effects not to matter.Crit effects that are just bonus damage at the start tend to be the best, with ones that rely on more things going right ending up being straight up trap options.
So help me out here. Now in this post you say critical hits are too powerful.
However you start this thread by stating critical hits are useless.
So I'm working on developing a model to prove how useless critical hit effects are (I've personally only ever seen one have in impact on a fight twice ever)
Which is it?
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No, it's 'Critical hits are so powerful, they make critical hit effects useless'.
No, it's 'Critical hits are so powerful, they make critical hit effects useless'.
Ah......I see now. Thanks.
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Honestly, my first instinct is just replace all the crit effects with stuff that's more flashy and fun. Especially good would be crit effects that take into account the fact that much of the time a successful crit means that the victim is dead. Ideas:
Crits happen pretty rarely - by my experience a whole party will experience about a dozen on average for a single book in an AP. You want the crit effects to be memorable when they happen. That they're something players get excited by and talk about afterward. Dealing a few points of burn damage on a creature that's going to die next round regardless does not do that.
I'd also argue that far too many crit effects in Starfinder right now are really only dangerous to the PCs. Burn and bleed ones for example make you lose 2x the RP if they stick on you when a crit knocks you unconscious. Foes don't care about that, since they're dead at 0. And the Wounding ones are irrelevant to creatures that will be dead in two rounds, but highly relevant to PCs that have to live with the consequences.
The idea of the 'improved crit' feat sorta steps on the toes of the late level Vanguard, who can apply crit effects on a 18 or 19.
I do agree that the effects with a save can become rare to do something beneficial.
When it comes to the 'Crits are powerful so the effects are useless', I can't speek for later levels. Yes, your Soldier or combat characters might deal enough damage on a crit to make them a little useless by dealing huge damage but your classes which rely on pistols and the such don't hit that hard. I have seen encounters at lower levesl with 40 hp, at low levels you deal maybe a D6 with a +1 or 2. A crit might hit 25% of its health. where as a Soldier might hit between 40 to 80% of its HP.
Assuming your party isn't just combat meats, your Mechanic, Envoys or Mystics can get a little extra effect by critting
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Interesting stuff!
I made a fusion some time ago, called "Dangerous", level 2: you apply it to a weapon and it reduces the number needed to get a crit. hit with that weapon by 2 (18-20). However, it makes it so that your weapon can never deal double damage roll on a crit (as you usually do), not even on a nat. 20.
My playeres liked it but they thought it was a bit weak, so I added a higher level version that does the same but lets you keep the crit damage on a nat. 20. (Though now I don't remember what level I gave it)