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Has any of you ever tried ( even on a white room scenario ) to just use the alchemist as a support?
Providing healing elixir to the party, combat mutagens as well as poisons to combatants and try to also make its part during an encounter?
From what I happened to see, enhancing the party with stuff is pretty performing.
I think the issue with this is that it means the Alchemist's entire contribution is stuff that happens outside of initiative, which isn't very fun in a game that is so much about combat as PF2 is. It's the equivalent of a caster turning on Heroism before you kick the door in and napping for the rest of the encounter. Makes for a solid GMPC, not a great player character.
I'm 100% with the people who make Alchemists who want to use their own stuff... which is why I stopped caring about the class the moment the Investigator came out, since the Alchemical Sciences methodology does a better job of bringing back the old Hyde Alchemist builds than I could ever expect from the Alchemist itself.
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From memory the problem with master proficiency is sticky bomb. An alchemist using sticky bomb (acid) does more damage than a melee fighter if they have the prof upgrade (assuming 3.3 rounds of persistent).
Math @ level 15
Alchemist hit bonus = 15+6 master+3 quicksilver (no reason not to have this up all the time)+5 dex=+29
Fighter hit bonus = 15+8 legendary+2 item+5 str =+30
Alchemist damage = 1+3 weapon spec+(3d6+8 persistent)+8 splash = 4+18.5 persistent+8 splash= 8 on miss, 73.05 on hit, 138.1 on crit.
Fighter damage = 3d12+2d6+13 = 19.5+7+13=39.5 on hit, 79 on crit.
Then you account for hit bonus - average AC for a level 15 monster is 37, giving the fighter 70% to hit and alchemist 65%.
Alch damage (Quick Alchemy+Sticky Acid)
=0.3(8)+0.5(73.05)+0.15(138.1)=59.639
Fighter damage (Strike+Certain Strike)
=0.2(79)+0.5(39.5)+0.05(79)+0.4(39.5)+0.5(13)=57.85
Now considering the alch can do it from 60ft away at this point... might be problematic.
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From memory the problem with master proficiency is sticky bomb. An alchemist using sticky bomb (acid) does more damage than a melee fighter if they have the prof upgrade (assuming 3.3 rounds of persistent).
Math @ level 15
Alchemist hit bonus = 15+6 master+3 quicksilver (no reason not to have this up all the time)+5 dex=+29
Fighter hit bonus = 15+8 legendary+2 item+5 str =+30
Alchemist damage = 1+3 weapon spec+(3d6+8 persistent)+8 splash = 4+18.5 persistent+8 splash= 8 on miss, 73.05 on hit, 138.1 on crit.
Fighter damage = 3d12+2d6+13 = 19.5+7+13=39.5 on hit, 79 on crit.
Then you account for hit bonus - average AC for a level 15 monster is 37, giving the fighter 70% to hit and alchemist 65%.
Alch damage (Quick Alchemy+Sticky Acid)
=0.3(8)+0.5(73.05)+0.15(138.1)=59.639Fighter damage (Strike+Certain Strike)
=0.2(79)+0.5(39.5)+0.05(79)+0.4(39.5)+0.5(13)=57.85Now considering the alch can do it from 60ft away at this point... might be problematic.
This is all very nice for strictly damage comparison, EXCEPT with no bonus constitution for either party and assuming both are human for simplicity, the Alchemist has 98 effective hp. 15x8+8 for 128-30 for quicksilver at level 15 which is why you wouldn't want it all the time. The fighter packing 15x10+8 for 158. 60 health/40% ish difference IS A SPICY MEATBALL of an exchange. Fighter attacks are not consumable or limited in scope. And I am incapable of providing average AC comparisons but Quicksilver is also smacking the Alch's treasured jewels for a gentle tickle of -2 Fortitude nonstop as well.
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This is all very nice for strictly damage comparison, EXCEPT with no bonus constitution for either party and assuming both are human for simplicity, the Alchemist has 98 effective hp. 15x8+8 for 128-30 for quicksilver at level 15 which is why you wouldn't want it all the time. The fighter packing 15x10+8 for 158. 60 health/40% ish difference IS A SPICY MEATBALL of an exchange. Fighter attacks are not consumable or limited in scope. And I am incapable of providing average AC comparisons but Quicksilver is also smacking the Alch's treasured jewels for a gentle tickle of -2 Fortitude nonstop as well.From memory the problem with master proficiency is sticky bomb. An alchemist using sticky bomb (acid) does more damage than a melee fighter if they have the prof upgrade (assuming 3.3 rounds of persistent).
Math @ level 15
Alchemist hit bonus = 15+6 master+3 quicksilver (no reason not to have this up all the time)+5 dex=+29
Fighter hit bonus = 15+8 legendary+2 item+5 str =+30
Alchemist damage = 1+3 weapon spec+(3d6+8 persistent)+8 splash = 4+18.5 persistent+8 splash= 8 on miss, 73.05 on hit, 138.1 on crit.
Fighter damage = 3d12+2d6+13 = 19.5+7+13=39.5 on hit, 79 on crit.
Then you account for hit bonus - average AC for a level 15 monster is 37, giving the fighter 70% to hit and alchemist 65%.
Alch damage (Quick Alchemy+Sticky Acid)
=0.3(8)+0.5(73.05)+0.15(138.1)=59.639Fighter damage (Strike+Certain Strike)
=0.2(79)+0.5(39.5)+0.05(79)+0.4(39.5)+0.5(13)=57.85Now considering the alch can do it from 60ft away at this point... might be problematic.
Being at range with +15 speed from quicksilver makes them much safer than the melee fighter, not to mention all the other benefits of range (which start to get pretty numerous at high levels - seriously all high level monsters might as well just read "get rekt if you're melee").
As for AC comparison by level here is a visual, here is the table that visual pulls from.
If you're talking about fighter vs alchemist AC, fighter will be the exact same or 1 higher at level 15, depending on if they use heavy armour or not.
At level 15, assuming both started with a 12, boosted it at 5, 10 and 15 (for fort saves as well as HP) and got toughness (because there isn't many decent general feats to get) the alch would have 158 and the fighter 218 instead, which is much closer % wise.
Alch attacks are also barely consumable at that point as well. They have 20 of these sticky acid flasks, and always the option to lose a little bit of damage and make it completely free instead. And, well, they have versatility compared to the fighter still, damage isn't their only hat. You could say the limited number is the price of having the versatility.
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You're assuming both characters attack for one round and then sit back and do nothing for the next 2.3 rounds, which favours the alchemist heavily - they don't get that full damage on every attack, because the rest of the party is also trying to kill their targets, and the later in the fight they apply it the less time it's likely to last for.
After three rounds they've gotten 6 rounds worth of persistent damage against 3 targets (because they can't deal more of the same type persistent damage to a creature already affected by it), assuming none of them die or recover early. That comes out to ~111.6 damage, compared to ~173.55 for the fighter repeating their routine for three rounds, which can be against the same or different targets. After two more rounds of none of the targets dying they would reach around your numbers, but at that point what on earth is the rest of the party doing?
The acid flask has significant limitations in practice, which is why it was given more total damage than other bomb types in the first place.
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That is true, which is where the versatility comes in. The alchemist can do significant damage on r1 applying persistent and just reapplying it whenever the enemy passes the check, then after that switch to a different thing to do. They can add more persistent damage with sticky (any other bomb) but they’ll be more useful on debilitating or passing out buffs/heals through elixirs.
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This thread, as well as some other ones about the PF2 Alchemist, remind me very strongly of my point of view on the PF1 Rogue : a Class that is potentially good at many roles but never to the point of reaching a specialist's level, even with massive investment.
The problem, apparently in PF2 as much as PF1, is that the game system itself rewards specializing far more that being a jack of all trades with passing competence in each trade.
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Like, for example, my good friend Guppy the Giant instinct barbarian. She gets, at level 15, +26 to damage on every strike after level 15, with no limits on how often she can use that. That's the equivalent of tacking 4d12 onto every single strike. That Oso the alchemist gets 9 splash damage is what keeps him in earshot of Guppy, as again he gets splash damage on 19 of 20 rolls at the same time Guppy gets that bonus on 10 hits and 1 crit (2 crits assuming a keen rune).
But Guppy is concentrating her damage where she wants it and is probably getting a few extra pluses to hit that don't help Oso so much.
Concentrated fire is tactics 101 for d20.Gettting that alchemist to work efficiently is hard and very circumstantial.
Look I get your points, but Alchemist is not an effective class.
You're assuming both characters attack for one round and then sit back and do nothing for the next 2.3 rounds, which favours the alchemist heavily - they don't get that full damage on every attack, because the rest of the party is also trying to kill their targets, and the later in the fight they apply it the less time it's likely to last for.
After three rounds they've gotten 6 rounds worth of persistent damage against 3 targets (because they can't deal more of the same type persistent damage to a creature already affected by it), assuming none of them die or recover early. That comes out to ~111.6 damage, compared to ~173.55 for the fighter repeating their routine for three rounds, which can be against the same or different targets. After two more rounds of none of the targets dying they would reach around your numbers, but at that point what on earth is the rest of the party doing?
The acid flask has significant limitations in practice, which is why it was given more total damage than other bomb types in the first place.
All together, this does also mean an alchemist that goes full bombing setup will utterly blow the melee greatsword fighter out of the water thanks to splash damage after that, in a game where ranged damage is specifically set way lower.
And though the alchemist will have spent pretty much all of their feats, they have spent 0 gold to the fighter's 3000.
And then they also have other elixirs after that.
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You're assuming both characters attack for one round and then sit back and do nothing for the next 2.3 rounds, which favours the alchemist heavily - they don't get that full damage on every attack, because the rest of the party is also trying to kill their targets, and the later in the fight they apply it the less time it's likely to last for.
After three rounds they've gotten 6 rounds worth of persistent damage against 3 targets (because they can't deal more of the same type persistent damage to a creature already affected by it), assuming none of them die or recover early. That comes out to ~111.6 damage, compared to ~173.55 for the fighter repeating their routine for three rounds, which can be against the same or different targets. After two more rounds of none of the targets dying they would reach around your numbers, but at that point what on earth is the rest of the party doing?
The acid flask has significant limitations in practice, which is why it was given more total damage than other bomb types in the first place.
All together, this does also mean an alchemist that goes full bombing setup will utterly blow the melee greatsword fighter out of the water thanks to splash damage after that, in a game where ranged damage is specifically set way lower.
And though the alchemist will have spent pretty much all of their feats, they have spent 0 gold to the fighter's 3000.
And then they also have other elixirs after that.
Splash damage against the primary target was included in the calculation already. If each target happens to have 3 other enemies in splash range (and no allies who don't feel like eating it), then in that ideal scenario the alchemist does outperform the fighter slightly.
This costs 1/6 of all their reagents for the day, since they're depending on Sticky Bomb to deal much of that damage, and is considerably outdone by a spellcaster spending a similar portion of their resources to hit the same targets.
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From memory the problem with master proficiency is sticky bomb. An alchemist using sticky bomb (acid) does more damage than a melee fighter if they have the prof upgrade (assuming 3.3 rounds of persistent).
Math @ level 15
Alchemist hit bonus = 15+6 master+3 quicksilver (no reason not to have this up all the time)+5 dex=+29
Fighter hit bonus = 15+8 legendary+2 item+5 str =+30
Alchemist damage = 1+3 weapon spec+(3d6+8 persistent)+8 splash = 4+18.5 persistent+8 splash= 8 on miss, 73.05 on hit, 138.1 on crit.
Fighter damage = 3d12+2d6+13 = 19.5+7+13=39.5 on hit, 79 on crit.
Then you account for hit bonus - average AC for a level 15 monster is 37, giving the fighter 70% to hit and alchemist 65%.
Alch damage (Quick Alchemy+Sticky Acid)
=0.3(8)+0.5(73.05)+0.15(138.1)=59.639Fighter damage (Strike+Certain Strike)
=0.2(79)+0.5(39.5)+0.05(79)+0.4(39.5)+0.5(13)=57.85Now considering the alch can do it from 60ft away at this point... might be problematic.
I'm trying, but I'm struggling with some of your math and assumptions a lot here.
First, I've not seen anything in the rules that a critical hit with something that also does persistent damage doubles that persistent damage... Can you point me in that direction? I've been digging through Nethys and my notes and everything coming up says you do not double persistent damage on a crit unless it says so.
The math is certainly a lot less favorable to the alchemist if so, if a crit literally only adds 4 damage.
And I guess I have problems with the assumption that alchemists would be so wildly effective as long as you put almost all your class feats towards it, operate under a functionally permanent -4 to your CON stat, tie up between 4 to 8 reagents or so every day (and convince your GM it's cool to just assume you've always consumed the mutagen within the last hour), the enemy is neither immune nor resistant to acid damage (which in my memory is one of the more likely damage types to show up that way in a stat block), and that both the enemy and the persistent damage somehow last three or more turns. I dunno.
Just seems like something that (assuming your understanding of crits and persistent damage is accurate) likely would not come into play for the majority of alchemists or even the bulk of combats for one such character built this way.
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First, I've not seen anything in the rules that a critical hit with something that also does persistent damage doubles that persistent damage... Can you point me in that direction? I've been digging through Nethys and my notes and everything coming up says you do not double persistent damage on a crit unless it says so.
For example, if you throw a lesser acid flask and hit your target, that creature takes 1 acid damage, 1d6 persistent acid damage, and 1 acid splash damage. All other creatures within 5 feet of it take 1 acid splash damage. On a critical hit, the target takes 2 acid damage and 2d6 persistent acid damage, but the splash damage is still 1. If you miss, the target and all creatures within 5 feet take only 1 splash damage. If you critically fail, no one takes any damage.
First, I've not seen anything in the rules that a critical hit with something that also does persistent damage doubles that persistent damage... Can you point me in that direction? I've been digging through Nethys and my notes and everything coming up says you do not double persistent damage on a crit unless it says so.For example, if you throw a lesser acid flask and hit your target, that creature takes 1 acid damage, 1d6 persistent acid damage, and 1 acid splash damage. All other creatures within 5 feet of it take 1 acid splash damage. On a critical hit, the target takes 2 acid damage and 2d6 persistent acid damage, but the splash damage is still 1. If you miss, the target and all creatures within 5 feet take only 1 splash damage. If you critically fail, no one takes any damage.
Interesting, wonder why that would not come up with a search. :/
Still feels weird to double the persistent damage on every round with a crit on the first. Definitely does add power to that one specific bomb!
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Added sticky acid at level 10/15 vs AC 29/36.
Optimized Bomber:
Level 1: averaging 5.5/3.4 damage
Level 5: averaging 12.9/8.4 damage
Level 10: averaging 14.45/9.8 damage
Level 15: averaging 20.5/13.525 damageCalculated Splash bomber with martial prof, fire:
Level 1: averaging 5.5/3.4 damage
Level 5: averaging 15.5/10.5 damage
Level 10: averaging 14.45/9.8 damage
Level 15: averaging 25.6/16.925 damageCalculated Splash bomber with normal prof, sticky acid:
Level 10: 19 Dex, 20 Int, expert; moderate acid for +19 (2 damage, 2d6+7 persistent, 7 splash - 37 average on success) - averaging 24.65 damage
Level 15: 20 Dex, 21 Int, master; greater acid for +26 (5 damage, 3d6+8 persistent, 8 splash - 50 average on success) - averaging 32.8 damageCalculated Splash bomber with martial prof, sticky acid:
Level 15: 20 Dex, 21 Int, master; greater acid for +28 (6 damage, 3d6+8 persistent, 8 splash - 51 average on success) - averaging 42.4 damageDamage-optimized bow champion:
Level 1: averaging 3.625/1.85 damage
Level 5: averaging 9.2/4.775 damage
Level 10: averaging 10.7/6.075 damage
Level 15: averaging 22.05/12.025 damageCompletely damage-optimized trident dragon barbarian with Raging Thrower, assuming returning trident because you desperately need that to throw with:
Level 1: averaging 8.05/4 damage with javelin
Level 5: averaging 15.3/8.5 damage
Level 10: averaging 14.4/8.4 damage
Level 15: averaging 35.2/19.8 damage
Okay, I can pack it up now, we found the optimized damage alchemist. For notes, the alchemist spends feats of 1/4/6/10 on Quick Bomber, Calculated Splash, Sticky Bombs, Expanded Splash, and does not spend on quicksilver mutagen. Persistent damage is assumed to last the statistical average of two turns.
Even without any buffs of any kind, they come pretty close to literally the most optimized ranged damage in the game. With martial proficiency, they outdo the most optimized ranged damage, and double the optimized champion.Thanks to Exocist for reminding me that sticky acid exists, especially since splash damage is so hilariously large with the bomber spec.
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Okay, you sold me! All the bomber needs is martial proficiencies and no other boosts. Acid flasks come with a lot of caveats, but I think that's a healthy relationship there!
I don't love the feat tax nature of it, but it is what it is. I wonder if maybe bombers still could get some of the splash feats for free or early.
The other three research fields do still need significant help though.
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I'm a little confused reading this, is the two turns of persistent damage not included in the alchemist's average or are your comments based on the damage of single attacks?
Remember to also grab a followup attack from the bomber, thanks to Quick Bomber.
Alternately, if you want to measure at 60 ft range and take a level 12 feat, Quick Alchemying up a free moderate alchemist's fire thanks to Double Brew is also pretty cheap for its effectiveness, averaging 14.7 damage on a second attack with martial prof for a total of 59.325.
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...Okay, you sold me! All the bomber needs is martial proficiencies and no other boosts. Acid flasks come with a lot of caveats, but I think that's a healthy relationship there!
I don't love the feat tax nature of it, but it is what it is. I wonder if maybe bombers still could get some of the splash feats for free or early.
The other three research fields do still need significant help though.
I think the worst part of those numbers is that literally any path can do this - this isn't exclusive to the bomber path in any way. Bomber path is just better against groups, but is actually worse for this strategy because it eats more effective cost, effectively triple the cost of a normal bomb rather than double.
Chirurgeon has two big flaws.
1. Currently, they still need to increase Medicine to make use out of it, but still also need Crafting, making the bonus really only matching effectiveness to alchemists that purposefully dump Wis. Fixing this is as easy as writing in the line in Versatile Performance that lets them use it for skill feats (and probably add in a bit that either explains, or makes it qualify for Treat Wounds as well).
2. Mediocre perpetual infusions. Honestly, not sure what to do here. The fact that these are good for a long duration really hurts their use as perpetual, but it does mean that you're giving your party an effective +1 vs poisons/diseases permanently.
Mutagenist is similarly tricky, but combat-wise master weapon proficiency might be sufficient now that they have medium armour (and/or drakeheart mutagen). Unlike other alchemists, they do get the bonus from items, so they're fine there, and Bestial Mutagen makes up the bonus to hit. They actually have a decent amount of flexibility - they actually do best when their perpetual infusions are ones they won't be using regularly, which is kinda counter-intuitive.
Toxicologist is completely fine IMO, especially if they get master weapon proficiency.
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Right. My stated goals for pushing for alchemist changes are 1) make it so an alchemist is not worse at using their own items than their allies may be and 2) make it so the different research fields offer valuable distinctions in playstyle and effect.
I think just giving some feats for free (probably Calculated and Expanded Splash) slightly earlier than they come online for others is both healthy by lowering the number of "required" or at least expected feats for bombers, and also by giving them an edge over other alchemists by levels. I don't think that would be huge but perhaps it might be.
The chirugeon has more than two flaws, by my reckoning though.
1. Agreed. I don't think you'll find anyone on these boards who doesn't, haha.
2. Also agreed. Giving elixirs of life here would blow the out-of-combat healing equation way out of the water. But antidote and antiplague are really poor. I don't know what to do here either.
3. Alchemical healing is not very inspiring. Two actions for a touch range heal (Healing Bomb is its own can of sad for a long time) is offset a bit by the advantages elixirs of life have over Lay on Hands or Battle Medicine, but I'm not sure it's in balance--definitely far weaker than Heal. Add in the fact that there's minimal encouragement to actively heal instead of just pre-distributing? Here are my thoughts, and I'm sure they're pretty wildly overpowered but it's Saturday morning and y'all have humored my musings so far:
3a. At level 1, selecting the chirurgeon field also provides this benefit: when you actively feed an ally an elixir of life or if they drink it within one round of you handing it to them, add your INT mod to the amount healed.
3b. At level 7?, in the same circumstances, add your INT mod and advanced alchemy level as a bonus to the healing. I'm trying to poke at the math here but I've got to go spend all day trying to renovate my house. :(
3c. Level 15... something? The level 13 benefit is very strong and I'm not sure where if anywhere to go from here.
Mutagenists mostly just need more options.
My thoughts as far as a research field feature is something like a free action when drinking a mutagen to make a crafting check. On a success, forestall the downside of the mutagen by a round, and on a crit... 2 rounds. At a higher level change it to 1 on a failure, 2 on a success, 3 on a crit? I like the variable nature of how that might work, and I also like how it would actively encourage drinking mutagens in response to combat instead of just constantly imbibing the perpetuals?
Toxicologist just needs poisons that don't all go against fortitude. Only being able to target one save ever is kind of disheartening and against the spirit of the alchemist, which is a toolkit character.
In my opinion. Appreciate you all.
Like, for example, my good friend Guppy the Giant instinct barbarian. She gets, at level 15, +26 to damage on every strike after level 15, with no limits on how often she can use that. That's the equivalent of tacking 4d12 onto every single strike. That Oso the alchemist gets 9 splash damage is what keeps him in earshot of Guppy, as again he gets splash damage on 19 of 20 rolls at the same time Guppy gets that bonus on 10 hits and 1 crit (2 crits assuming a keen rune).
But Guppy is concentrating her damage where she wants it and is probably getting a few extra pluses to hit that don't help Oso so much.
Concentrated fire is tactics 101 for d20.
Gettting that alchemist to work efficiently is hard and very circumstantial.
Look I get your points, but Alchemist is not an effective class.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to here.
Number 1, this was talking about how Guppy has a massive math fixer for 1 feat to her thrown weapons that Oso needs 2-3 fears to catch up to for his bombs.
Number 2, Bombers have the ability to make their splash damage only effect their primary target; I’ve assumed he’s been using that in all calculations. Also why I’ve only been assuming 1 round of persistent damage; it’s immediately overwritten by the next successful strike with his major bomb. I was not assuming sticky bomb, but that would make the 2nd strike overwrite the first when it is used, but I’m not doing THAT math.
As far as pluses go, one big plus in Oso’s favor is Uncanny Bombs, which allows him to ignore cover. But that’s another 2 feats.
My biggest takeaway from all of this is how feat intensive this all this. As Temperans said, it kind of sucks that he has to throw all of his resources to accomplish what martials can do with 1 feat and 1 rune and war priests (who have the same chassis) can with 1 high level spell.
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3. Alchemical healing is not very inspiring. Two actions for a touch range heal (Healing Bomb is its own can of sad for a long time) is offset a bit by the advantages elixirs of life have over Lay on Hands or Battle Medicine, but I'm not sure it's in balance--definitely far weaker than Heal. Add in the fact that there's minimal encouragement to actively heal instead of just pre-distributing? Here are my thoughts, and I'm sure they're pretty wildly overpowered but it's Saturday morning and y'all have humored my musings so far:
For me it’s the action cost that kills combat healing for me, so how about this?
Healing Poultice: if a Chiurgeon is adjacent an ally, he can administer a healing elixir he created with Quick Alchemy by touch instead of putting the elixir in a bottle for the ally to drink. As a 1 action activity, touch your ally. They gain the benefit of a healing elixir you have created using Quick Alchemy.
Ranged Poultice: Your range for healing poultice is now 30’, increasing to 60’ at level 15.
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Field discovery just needs to be baked into Advanced Alchemy, I think. That would give room for a real ability at 5th, like that free calculated/expanded splash, my poultice proposal, and other possible abilities.
I’d also want Extended Alchemy baked in somehow. Even if it was just limited to perpetual items, that would be a QoL that would increase flexibility for the class without majorly increasing its power.
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Healing Poultice: if a Chiurgeon is adjacent an ally, he can administer a healing elixir he created with Quick Alchemy by touch instead of putting the elixir in a bottle for the ally to drink. As a 1 action activity, touch your ally. They gain the benefit of a healing elixir you have created using Quick Alchemy.
This is actually RAW.
You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature. You can feed an elixir only to a creature within reach that is either willing or unable to prevent you from doing so.
Honestly, baking in Healing Bomb for the other effect would be sufficient.
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I honestly don’t really think the out of combat healing thing is really that much of an issue for chirgeon if that change were to happen. Champions and now Investigators technically also have infinite healing and I really don’t see the issue in letting the healing focused alchemist actually be good at healing.
I honestly don’t really think the out of combat healing thing is really that much of an issue for chirgeon if that change were to happen. Champions and now Investigators technically also have infinite healing and I really don’t see the issue in letting the healing focused alchemist actually be good at healing.
Doing it as single actions makes any buff that's 10 mins a lot more than one combat, as they're supposed to be intended.
Healing Poultice: if a Chiurgeon is adjacent an ally, he can administer a healing elixir he created with Quick Alchemy by touch instead of putting the elixir in a bottle for the ally to drink. As a 1 action activity, touch your ally. They gain the benefit of a healing elixir you have created using Quick Alchemy.This is actually RAW.
You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature. You can feed an elixir only to a creature within reach that is either willing or unable to prevent you from doing so.Honestly, baking in Healing Bomb for the other effect would be sufficient.
Or making the touch part of the quick alchemy action for further action savings.
I could see making quick alchemy a 2 action activity to touch 2 allies once you’re able to make 2 potions with quick alchemy, upgrading to 3 when Alacrity kicks in at 15. With perhaps a feat to make the healing bomb a splash effect on a hit (since you already get the heal itself as your failure effect).
A burst effect centered on yourself might be good to get as well, at high levels.
Thank you for the correction, btw.
Was the Fighter v. Alchemist comparison, where the Alchemist has Master proficiency, accounting for the fact that the Alchemist is a boost behind on their throwing stat, since their key stat is intelligence? I know that technically that's only half the game's levels, but I forget which ranges it actually applies to.
I also agree that the drawbacks of that build are pretty severe for the alchemist, given the side effects of the mutagen and the feat investment, whereas the fighter is getting a bunch of 'hidden' benefits in that scenario.
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I'm a little confused reading this, is the two turns of persistent damage not included in the alchemist's average or are your comments based on the damage of single attacks?Remember to also grab a followup attack from the bomber, thanks to Quick Bomber.
Alternately, if you want to measure at 60 ft range and take a level 12 feat, Quick Alchemying up a free moderate alchemist's fire thanks to Double Brew is also pretty cheap for its effectiveness, averaging 14.7 damage on a second attack with martial prof for a total of 59.325.
Saves reagents and you can throw a second additive on it as well.
Am I sitting in amateur hour here with the boosts in general. In the HP comparison, the Alchemist spends three of their boosts across 15 levels only in Fortitude, but none in Intelligence or Dex? So they don't have a +5 to hit from Dex in this comparison? So AC is different as well? Is this common place for martials/supports to sink their boosts into Constitution through 15?
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Am I sitting in amateur hour here with the boosts in general. In the HP comparison, the Alchemist spends three of their boosts across 15 levels only in Fortitude, but none in Intelligence or Dex? So they don't have a +5 to hit from Dex in this comparison? So AC is different as well? Is this common place for martials/supports to sink their boosts into Constitution through 15?
They get 4 boosts with each ability boost, not 1, so if we assume a standard human alchemist
Starting: 10/16/12/18/12/10
5: 10/18/14/19/14/10
10: 10/19/16/20/16/10
15: 10/20/18/21/18/10
Leaves us with awkward boosts at 20 but what can you do
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Was the Fighter v. Alchemist comparison, where the Alchemist has Master proficiency, accounting for the fact that the Alchemist is a boost behind on their throwing stat, since their key stat is intelligence? I know that technically that's only half the game's levels, but I forget which ranges it actually applies to.
I also agree that the drawbacks of that build are pretty severe for the alchemist, given the side effects of the mutagen and the feat investment, whereas the fighter is getting a bunch of 'hidden' benefits in that scenario.
Alch is behind 1-4, 10-14 and 20 on stat (provided they apex dex and they should).
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Alch is behind 1-4, 10-14 and 20 on stat (provided they apex dex and they should).Was the Fighter v. Alchemist comparison, where the Alchemist has Master proficiency, accounting for the fact that the Alchemist is a boost behind on their throwing stat, since their key stat is intelligence? I know that technically that's only half the game's levels, but I forget which ranges it actually applies to.
I also agree that the drawbacks of that build are pretty severe for the alchemist, given the side effects of the mutagen and the feat investment, whereas the fighter is getting a bunch of 'hidden' benefits in that scenario.
HOLY MOLY. I was reading that as ONE ability boost per five. No wonder my Alchemist is struggling. NO ONE CORRECTED MEEEE. That makes a lot more sense. So I guess really a couple of tune up items and such could really balance this out better but Alch isn't slipping into the Horrible zone.
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From memory the problem with master proficiency is sticky bomb. An alchemist using sticky bomb (acid) does more damage than a melee fighter if they have the prof upgrade (assuming 3.3 rounds of persistent).
Math @ level 15
Alchemist hit bonus = 15+6 master+3 quicksilver (no reason not to have this up all the time)+5 dex=+29
Fighter hit bonus = 15+8 legendary+2 item+5 str =+30
Alchemist damage = 1+3 weapon spec+(3d6+8 persistent)+8 splash = 4+18.5 persistent+8 splash= 8 on miss, 73.05 on hit, 138.1 on crit.
Fighter damage = 3d12+2d6+13 = 19.5+7+13=39.5 on hit, 79 on crit.
Then you account for hit bonus - average AC for a level 15 monster is 37, giving the fighter 70% to hit and alchemist 65%.
Alch damage (Quick Alchemy+Sticky Acid)
=0.3(8)+0.5(73.05)+0.15(138.1)=59.639Fighter damage (Strike+Certain Strike)
=0.2(79)+0.5(39.5)+0.05(79)+0.4(39.5)+0.5(13)=57.85Now considering the alch can do it from 60ft away at this point... might be problematic.
Sure... If we exclude that needing 4+ rounds to kill a level equivalent enemy isn't really realistic.
And that you are getting smacked for 4 rounds by said enemy.
And fighter has 1 feat while your alchemist has minimum 4 feats to do that AND since its quick Alchemy he can only do so a few times per day (especially since to have constant on Quicksilver is another good chunk of reagents)
P.s.keeping in mind that this comparison is already on the 50% of the levels that they have equal ability bonus and not the other 50% of the time when they are even more behind
The hypothetical master upgrade would only come in at level 15, so levels before that are irrelevant.
That being said, it being slow is valid. The fact is, though, that the alchemist has many things they do other than damage, and the fighter only has damage. The alchemist also costs resources, but the internal balance on versatility is a very fine line to thread.