Correct. You don't suffer arcane spell failure chance when you use non arcane magic. I'm not familiar with dragon discipline so I can't offer an answer there. But if it requires arcane magic then psychic magic won't qualify
As a psychic caster, arcane spell failure doesn't apply. However, be aware of the increased difficulty for casting psychic spells defensively unless you take a move action to center yourself. (The centering jewel from Psychic Anthology makes this a swift action. This item is absolutely essential for making spell combat feasible for a mindblade!) Also, most psychic spells have emotion components, so watch out for fear and rage effects robbing you of the ability to cast.
The mindblade is a psychic caster, not arcane, so it will not help you meet the spellcasting prerequisite for dragon disciple. (This is why almost all dragon disciples are sorcerers, with an occasional bard.)
I am a huge fan of the mindblade magus--one of my favorite PFS PCs is one--but in my opinion, it's not a class/archetype combo that is well-suited to level dipping. Psychic spellcasting has its own weird pitfalls (like the centering issue mentioned above), and the mindblade only really shines after you've advanced a few levels to get more than a +1 psychic weapon. There is also no way to manifest the weapon faster than a standard action until 8th level--but when you do, being able to quickly change what kind of weapon(s) you have, or easily replace a damaged one, in the middle of combat is pretty sweet.
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Problem is with most spontaneous casters is the main stat is Charisma which for me doesn't work. I have a 9. There is an Int based witch and Bard but I'm not impressed with the spell list for my guy. I'm a two handed Power attacker. Most of the party is specialized in ranged combat I am the only front line melee fighter
theres a sorcerer bloodline for int based. or arcanist may be an option
If you're just taking a one level dip then into dragon disciple then spellcasting is never going to be a big thing for you. Identify a couple of 1st level spells you might like and a 2nd level spell or two and that can be most of your spell slots used for a long, long time.
e.g. bard 1: heightened awareness, vanish, bard 2: mirror image, heroism.
witch 1: enlarge person, ill omen, witch 2: alter self, false life.
Under prereqs draconic disciple has 'If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline.' - a sorcerer with the sage wildblooded variant of arcane doesn't fill this prereq unless perhaps the GM allows crossblooded (arcane, draconic) and wildblooded (sage) on the same character. Not RAW but I would allow that.
All you need is a bonded object if you want the "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation." Soulforger, Skirner, or blade adept magus should work.
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All you need is a bonded object if you want the "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation." Soulforger, Skirner, or blade adept magus should work.
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard’s level.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
Your interpretation is very questionable. The character doesn't have the ability to cast one or more spells without preparation. The object has the ability to do that. Plus, the bonded object isn't a spellcasting ability. As I see it you need the sorcerer, bard, etc. ability:
Spells: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard
spell list presented in Chapter 10. He can cast any spell
he knows without preparing it ahead of time.
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Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Chapter 10. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.
The bonded object is an ability, it doesn't have powers on its own, and it isn't casting the spell for you. I think it would be odd to attribute the abilities granted by the bonded object to anything other than the character.
Dragon Disciple doesn't specify that the caster needs to be a spontaneous caster, only that they need to be able to cast spells without preparation. There are a bunch of ways to cast spells without preparation that don't involve classes that exclusively cast spells spontaneously.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level."
This paragraph covers both the issue of whether or not the spell is prepared, it's not, and whether or not it should be treated as a spell cast by the wizard, it should. If this doesn't work, then there would need to be a rule somewhere saying otherwise.
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The bonded object is an ability, it doesn't have powers on its own, and it isn't casting the spell for you. I think it would be odd to attribute the abilities granted by the bonded object to anything other than the character.
Dragon Disciple doesn't specify that the caster needs to be a spontaneous caster, only that they need to be able to cast spells without preparation. There are a bunch of ways to cast spells without preparation that don't involve classes that exclusively cast spells spontaneously.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level."
This paragraph covers both the issue of whether or not the spell is prepared, it's not, and whether or not it should be treated as a spell cast by the wizard, it should. If this doesn't work, then there would need to be a rule somewhere saying otherwise.
Consider a few things:
- you lose the bonded object, you don't have the ability to cast spells that aren't prepared. You lose access to the prestige class until you get it back or you get a new one.- you use the bonded object, you don't have the ability to cast spells that aren't prepared till the next day. You lose access to the prestige class levels.
- someone cast dispel magic on the bonded object. you don't have the ability to cast spells that aren't prepared till it functions again. You lose access to the prestige class levels.
The access to the prestige class levels is fully dependant on having the bonded object that allows you to cast non-prepared spells.
Plus, as I cited, the object gives you the power, it is in the ability description, it is not something you have.
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.
You need to use the object.
I see, so if you expend all your spells of first level that can be cast without preparation, then you would say that you'd lose access to the prestige class? That seems like an unlikely interpretation of the rules; even the standard path to entry would end if you cast all your first level sorcerer spells.
Also, I don't see anything in the arcane bond ability indicating that the bonded item ceases to be bonded if dispelled. It appears only to return to normal when replaced, or if the wizard dies.
All that aside, where are the rules for losing access to a prestige class if you lose the prerequisites. I remember the 3.5 rules being wonky with rules applying based on the book they were found in, and dragon disciple losing prerequisites to enter the class when you hit the capstone, but I haven't been able to find rules for losing prestige class levels in Pathfinder at all.
I imagine gaining more levels in a prestige class would be difficult if you lose the prereqs, but taking away a bunch of levels because you lost your magic widget (or if your casting ability gets drained below 10, or whatever) is crazytown.
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I imagine gaining more levels in a prestige class would be difficult if you lose the prereqs, but taking away a bunch of levels because you lost your magic widget (or if your casting ability gets drained below 10, or whatever) is crazytown.
Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?
No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.
If you don't qualify for a prestige class, you can't use it.
Is there reason to believe that the retraining rules are relevant to loss of ability through any other means aside from retraining?
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Is there reason to believe that the retraining rules are relevant to loss of ability through any other means aside from retraining?
you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
The same happen for feats when you qualifying stat is drained.
The general rule is clear: if you lose the prerequisite, you lose the ability.
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Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself.
same thing with everything else, if you have it and dont qualify, you cant use it, but still have it
also
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard’s level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard’s opposition schoolsand
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
spells. Plural. not just 1/day
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spells. Plural. not just 1/dayDoes a fighter 4/bard 1 qualify for dragon disciple?
Does a wizard 3/cleric 3 qualify for mystic theurge?
does a bard with a 7 charisma qualify, or wizard/cleric with 7 int and 7 wis?
its not can an arcane spell, its cast arcane spells. plural.
pathfinder uses all kinds of its own definitions for words, but pluralization is still the same as the rest of the English language as far as I know
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Consider a few things:
- you lose the bonded object, you don't have the ability to cast spells that aren't prepared. You lose access to the prestige class until you get it back or you get a new one.
- you use the bonded object, you don't have the ability to cast spells that aren't prepared till the next day. You lose access to the prestige class levels.
- someone cast dispel magic on the bonded object. you don't have the ability to cast spells that aren't prepared till it functions again. You lose access to the prestige class levels.That is a nonsequitor.
If a wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 4 casts all of their level 2-4 wizard spells do they lose access to their mystic theurge levels now?
If they take enough ability drain to reduce their intelligence score to 11, are they now unable to cast restoration via cleric because they lost their mystic theurge levels from being unable to fulfill the prerequisites anymore?
If they stand in an AMF, are do they lose their mystic theurge levels while inside?
According to what you've said so far, the answer to all of these is yes.
Your argument is completely silly and expands the FAQ past the point of it's purview; it only applies to retraining.
means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
It is simply the closest FAQ for people that don't gets that if you lose the prerequisites for something, you lose the access to that "something", regardless from it being a feat, a prestige class, special ability or whatever.
In Pathfinder is really hard to lose a prerequisite, unless it is item-dependent.A classical example is if you have strength 12 and a Belt of Giant Strength +2 you can take power Attack, but, if you lose the belt, you lose the use of Power Attack until you have again a strength of 13+.
Here's the official word:
1. The game differentiates between permanent ability score bonuses (such as +1 every 4 character levels and wearing a +2 belt of giant strength for 24 hours) and temporary ability score bonuses (such as from barbarian rage, an alchemist mutagen, or a bull's strength spell).
2. Permanent ability score bonuses do count for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
3. If you lose a permanent ability score bonus, you still have the feat, you just can't use it until your ability score qualifies again.
4. Temporary ability score bonuses do not count for the purpose of qualifying for feats. (My earlier statement contradicting this point was my opinion of how it should work.)
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While this post is for feats, it is valid for everything with a prerequisite. If you lose the prerequisite, the ability stop working.
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It is simply the closest FAQ for people that don't gets that if you lose the prerequisites for something, you lose the access to that "something", regardless from it being a feat, a prestige class, special ability or whatever.
In Pathfinder is really hard to lose a prerequisite, unless it is item-dependent.
A classical example is if you have strength 12 and a Belt of Giant Strength +2 you can take power Attack, but, if you lose the belt, you lose the use of Power Attack until you have again a strength of 13+.While this post is for feats, it is valid for everything with a prerequisite. If you lose the prerequisite, the ability stop working.
Here's the official word:1. The game differentiates between permanent ability score bonuses (such as +1 every 4 character levels and wearing a +2 belt of giant strength for 24 hours) and temporary ability score bonuses (such as from barbarian rage, an alchemist mutagen, or a bull's strength spell).
2. Permanent ability score bonuses do count for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
3. If you lose a permanent ability score bonus, you still have the feat, you just can't use it until your ability score qualifies again.
4. Temporary ability score bonuses do not count for the purpose of qualifying for feats. (My earlier statement contradicting this point was my opinion of how it should work.)
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Man, I didn't expect you to actually agree that a spellcaster who casts all their spells per day or walks into an AMF loses their prestige class while inside, along with all the HP and saving throw bonuses that come with it.
Props for sticking to your interpretation, but I still think it's a dumb one.
theres a rule somewhere about this. its like when a cleric or palidan loses their stuff
basically loses all class features but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies, skill ranks or saving throws, BAB, or HP.
There's different rules for how prerequisites are used for all these different things. Prestige classes specifically say you need to have the prerequisites before you take the first level in the class, no mention of taking additional levels in the class or losing access to its abilities.
The retraining rules say you can't qualify for a prestige class using things gained from that prestige class.
The feat prerequisite rules say that you can't select or use a feat without the prerequisites.
Rules for losing class abilities for some action or another all seem tailored to the class,
There doesn't appear to be a universal prerequisite rule, attempting to create one by editing out parts of the other prerequisite rules is probably a decent homebrew, but it's not in the books as far as I can tell.
That said, even going with either the ruling that arcane bond doesn't work at all, or the other one where you lose your prestige class if you run out of 1st level arcane spells that you can cast without preparation, there's still the "preferred spell" feat which should qualify as well and can be grabbed at 5th level by any spell caster. Though admittedly it's a bit more costly at 2 feats.
I could probably find other methods of casting without preparation that are not from exclusively spontaneous casters, but I'm pretty satisfied that either the preferred spell feat or the arcane bond ability would fulfill the prerequisite for the prestige class.
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It is simply the closest FAQ for people that don't gets that if you lose the prerequisites for something, you lose the access to that "something", regardless from it being a feat, a prestige class, special ability or whatever.
In Pathfinder is really hard to lose a prerequisite, unless it is item-dependent.
A classical example is if you have strength 12 and a Belt of Giant Strength +2 you can take power Attack, but, if you lose the belt, you lose the use of Power Attack until you have again a strength of 13+.While this post is for feats, it is valid for everything with a prerequisite. If you lose the prerequisite, the ability stop working.
Here's the official word:1. The game differentiates between permanent ability score bonuses (such as +1 every 4 character levels and wearing a +2 belt of giant strength for 24 hours) and temporary ability score bonuses (such as from barbarian rage, an alchemist mutagen, or a bull's strength spell).
2. Permanent ability score bonuses do count for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
3. If you lose a permanent ability score bonus, you still have the feat, you just can't use it until your ability score qualifies again.
4. Temporary ability score bonuses do not count for the purpose of qualifying for feats. (My earlier statement contradicting this point was my opinion of how it should work.)
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Man, I didn't expect you to actually agree that a spellcaster who casts all their spells per day or walks into an AMF loses their prestige class while inside, along with all the HP and saving throw bonuses that come with it.
Props for sticking to your interpretation, but I still think it's a dumb one.
I agree that probably saying that you lose it if you use the bonded item is excessive, but if you lose access to the item, thanks to Anti Magic Field, item destruction, etc., you lose the ability to cast non prepared spells until you get it back, and you lose access to all the class abilities as you lack the prerequisite.
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There's different rules for how prerequisites are used for all these different things. Prestige classes specifically say you need to have the prerequisites before you take the first level in the class, no mention of taking additional levels in the class or losing access to its abilities.
LOL. I am 90% sure there is a FAQ saying exactly that. Sadly it isn't about the CRB and finding it will require some work.
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The argument with the seven primary stat is invalid. In all three case you need at least a ten to qualify for the class itself. Say your stat you suffer the penalties. You don't exactly lose the class you just now really suck at it.
Please, cite the Pathfinder rule that says that. It was a AD&D 1st and 2nd ed. rule, I am not sure it existed from 3.0 onward.
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The argument with the seven primary stat is invalid. In all three case you need at least a ten to qualify for the class itself. Say your stat you suffer the penalties. You don't exactly lose the class you just now really suck at it.
theres no pathfinder rule that says you need stats to be a class.
on the other hand there are rules that say you need stats to cast spells . and without 10+ spell level stat you cant cast the spells at all.
unable to cast spells = unable to qualify for dragon disciple or theurge
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Not even a FAQ, basic ruled:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made.
What you need to be able to qualify for a level in a prestige class? The ability to take that prestige class.
If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class.
Sure, it says "that character cannot take that prestige class." and not "that character cannot advance in that prestige class.", but the CRB was written before there was any normal way to lose the prerequisites for a prestige class.
I am convinced the Devs never considered the idea of getting the Dragon disciple class using a bonded item and that if they still cared for the first edition the would FAQed that hypothesis away, but you can see it differently.
I prefer to include the sentence before the one you quoted for context. Otherwise the pronoun "that" isn't defined by the context in which it was meant to appear.
"Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class."
"That level" appears to reference the level just mentioned in the previous sentence which is the first level of the prestige class.