Thoughts on the Gunslinger after fighting Oozes at level 5


Guns and Gears Playtest General Discussion


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This January my group started The Slithering, and the GM allowed me to take the Gunslinger for a spin. We're currently one session in (two combat encounters), and the following is my impression after playing the Gunslinger for a bit.

So, first things first. We're playing with the free archetype variant due to being a man short (we've got a player on paternity leave), but for the purposes of my experience it didn't really factor in on the impression, as I chose "Alchemist" as my free archetype and so far I've used it for diddely squat (the one point where I could have given another player an antiplague to fight off a disease; I forgot... So he rolled his save without the added bonus.)

The Character:
5th level Hobgoblin Gunslinger
10str, 19 dex, 18 con, 14 int, 12 wisdom 10 charisma
1- Firearm Ace
2- Risky Reload
4- Running Reload
Weapon: +1 Striking Dueling Pistol

The Experience:
First off, I really liked the way the gunslinger works, that is, I like how it works with the feats I've chosen. While Firearm Ace is nice and Running Reload lets me do something while I reload, I feel like Risky Reload is necessary to stay on par with a reload weapon, even though I didn't even come close to keeping up with the other characters.

Now, the reason I say that I couldn't keep up, is because of a certain monster type which is very present in the slithering and their immunity to critical hits. On the plus side, the low AC of that gelatinous bastards also means that I never missed a Risky Reload, so I consistently fired twice per turn by starting off with strike/reload/strike as my turn one and then go into risky reload/reload/strike on the following turns.

Even though I was able to pump out shots I felt like I wasn't contributing to the team effort, which was in part due to consistently rolling at least one 1 on my d6's, but I suspect most of it was due to the crit immunity.

Max damage on a normal hit for my guy (with Ace) is 14 damage (2d6+2), but for a crit, max damage is 54 (2d10+2*2+1d10).

My one gripe after the session is that I feel like the gunslinger (or at least the gun) is a bit too reliant on critical hits. I realize I probably couldn't have picked a worse adventure to test the Gunslinger in, and overall I still enjoyed playing the character, but I felt way behind the melees in our group who while they couldn't crit either, rolled bigger dice and had more attacks.

Anyway, that was my 2p.


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Just a numbers comparison, Crossbow (+Ace) is max 22 on non-crit and 44 on crit. (2d10+2 damage)

Guns are extremely swingy on damage, and I'm worried that it leads to far into crit fishing for damage while crits don't actually do that much more.

Scarab Sages

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Guns are way to swingy, if you aren't crit fishing (which isn't really satisfying or consistent in this edition) you aren't really doing much with a gun.


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Angel Hunter D wrote:
Guns are way to swingy, if you aren't crit fishing (which isn't really satisfying or consistent in this edition) you aren't really doing much with a gun.

It reminds me far too much of the Magus playtest.

I'm pretty sure most people agreed that crit fishing as a core design was a flawed idea back then too. Why is it coming back?


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Lightdroplet wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
Guns are way to swingy, if you aren't crit fishing (which isn't really satisfying or consistent in this edition) you aren't really doing much with a gun.

It reminds me far too much of the Magus playtest.

I'm pretty sure most people agreed that crit fishing as a core design was a flawed idea back then too. Why is it coming back?

How can we have a super extra swingy gun magus if we can't combine them... :P

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

Technically, the Crit immunity only prevents the doubling of the rolls. Did you apply the "riding" effects of the crits, like Fatal bumping the dices and adding one die?

Core Rule Book p.451 (as seen in v.2.0) wrote:
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).

This alters the normal "immunity" rule and only specifies that the doubling part of the critical hit is ignored.

I'm just pointing it out because a lot of people miss this special quirk in the rules.
Maybe you already knew this. If so, I'm sorry for assuming, and please ignore my post. :3


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Elfteiroh wrote:

Technically, the Crit immunity only prevents the doubling of the rolls. Did you apply the "riding" effects of the crits, like Fatal bumping the dices and adding one die?

Core Rule Book p.451 (as seen in v.2.0) wrote:
Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove).

This alters the normal "immunity" rule and only specifies that the doubling part of the critical hit is ignored.

I'm just pointing it out because a lot of people miss this special quirk in the rules.
Maybe you already knew this. If so, I'm sorry for assuming, and please ignore my post. :3

It says "This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove)." Traits aren't "critical success effects of other actions", they are effects of "a Strike or other attack that deals damage". It's talking about crit affects other than damage, which is why the examples are shove and grapple.


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Elfteiroh wrote:
Technically, the Crit immunity only prevents the doubling of the rolls. Did you apply the "riding" effects of the crits, like Fatal bumping the dices and adding one die? ...

Do you have a reference to this? The place in the CRB you are refering to doesn't specify this. It says you do not double the damage, but it doesn't mention effects such as fatal/deadly (nor crit specializations). The reference to critical effects is to "other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove)."

We did talk about it during the session, but ended up going with the reading Graystone proposes, which I think is correct, although it does take a toll on the Gunslinger in this case. If Paizo where to clarify/errata that it is only double damage they are immune to, it would have changed the situation in this case. Still wouldn't change the fact that guns are very swingy in relation to crits.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Think they might have a point though. Immunity to crits specifically tells you that it works differently than other immunity, then tells you what crit immunity does: it means you don't double the damage. It specifically doesn't downgrade crits to normal successes or anything like that.

But things like the extra die from deadly or the die size bump from fatal aren't doubling your damage.


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Squiggit wrote:
But things like the extra die from deadly or the die size bump from fatal aren't doubling your damage.

They aren't "normal damage" either. Myself, they fall under "other critical success effects" and only those of the non-[Strike/attack that deals damage] variety get those.


It's a bit counterintuitive but I think Squiggit is right. With the way that rule is worded, a critical hit is still a critical hit, you just don't double the damage; ergo, anything else that would happen on a critical hit would still apply, whether that be the Fatal trait on a firearm or knocking the target prone with a hammer.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
It's a bit counterintuitive but I think Squiggit is right. With the way that rule is worded, a critical hit is still a critical hit, you just don't double the damage; ergo, anything else that would happen on a critical hit would still apply, whether that be the Fatal trait on a firearm or knocking the target prone with a hammer.

If that was the case, it's worded oddly that it specifies that other effects work for non-damage attacks when it could just ignore ALL of that by just saying every effect other than x2 damage work normally and ignoring the distinction.

For instance, if it was worded like this, I could agree: 'Immunity to critical hits works a little differently. When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by an attack, any damage dealt is not double damaged but any other critical success effects work normally.'

So as written, it's either not allowing things like fatal or it needs a rewrite to say that much, much clearer IMO. I know when it's come up in play, that's how I've seen it ruled.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You're right that it's a little awkward the way it calls out "other actions" if this is the intent, but by that same token it goes out of its way to only specifically say that damage isn't doubled, which is weirdly roundabout if the goal is to still negate crits entirely.

Furthermore, trying to intuit meaning like that creates a lot of weird grey areas for other abilities, either strikes with crit riders that have nothing to do with damage or actions like trip that only deal damage on a crit.

If we stick to a more narrow reading and negate only what it says is negated (double damage) we don't have those problems.


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Squiggit wrote:
You're right that it's a little awkward the way it calls out "other actions" if this is the intent, but by that same token it goes out of its way to only specifically say that damage isn't doubled, which is weirdly roundabout if the goal is to still negate crits entirely.

Well it's oddly written either way. IMO it specifies x2 damage as the rest are effects and traits and the non-damage effects are covered in the next line: To me it doesn't seem odd that traits that increase damage do not work on a crit when it tells you the attack does normal damage. It'd be one thing if it was a magic that triggered on a crit but it's a weapon trait like being a pick on a creature that doesn't have a weak point.

Squiggit wrote:
Furthermore, trying to intuit meaning like that creates a lot of weird grey areas for other abilities, either strikes with crit riders that have nothing to do with damage or actions like trip that only deal damage on a crit.

I'm not sure it's weird. It makes a lot of sense that a gelatinous cube doesn't take extra damage because a weapon is deadly/fatal vs a normal creature. And if the cube doesn't take damage from a crit trip, I'm fine with that. It's like a bleed affect not working on a creature without blood...

Squiggit wrote:
If we stick to a more narrow reading and negate only what it says is negated (double damage) we don't have those problems.

I'm not sure it makes more sense of doesn't have problems. Can you give me examples where your way works and mine doesn't? What issues come up?

Liberty's Edge

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The wording says how it deals with doubling the damage (you still do the normal damage) and how it deals with crits from "other critical success effects of other actions that have the attack trait (such as Grapple and Shove)".

For the other things, I go with Immune = no effect (ie, no Deadly, no Fatal ...). Which also equates to doing "the normal damage" BTW.

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