as always this depend on the gm and the game.
i will like to point out something that many people mistake (maybe because in old school d&d it was like that). you do not need trapfinding to find traps, nor do you need it to disable mechanical traps. trapfinding just allow a rogue to disable magical traps (and give him bonus to find\disable trap etc) anyone with high enough perception can find ANY trap. and anyone with high enough ranks (and bonus) in disable device can disable mechanical traps. (back in the old school classes without something akin to trapfinding couldn't even find or disable traps so maybe this is why a lot get confused).
so unless your up against magical traps. there really isn't any need for the trapfinding class ability.
then again, how do you know there isn't a magical trap ahead without metagaming?
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So looked couldn't seem to find an answer. When a rogue loses the Trapfinding ability. Is there a non campaign Trait,Feat, or Rogue Talent that allows him to get that ability back?
There are very few ways of getting Trapfinding.
3 Prestige classes offer the ability at level 1, 2, and 3 respectively:
Aspis Agent, Brother of the Seal, and Pathfinder Field Agent.
The spell Aram Zey's Focus grants you Trapfinding for 1min/CL.
The Monitor Obedience of the Psychopomp Usher Imot grants you Trapfinding.
...There are very few ways of getting Trapfinding
....
The Monitor Obedience of the Psychopomp Usher Imot grants you Trapfinding.
oohh nice find. i like it. make it possible for anyone who can follow a T.N. deity to disable magical traps and be the party's trapper.
this goes straight into my one party guy build (aka red mage).
-a Calamity caller with traits to make perception and disable device class skills (though the heavy armor drop the latter with acp)
up to now he could heal,buff,debuf,blast,use heavy armor and all non exotic weapon. was looking for magic traps disarming thx!
now to convince the entire party to use this build...
Keep in mind that magical traps are always dispelable assuming you can target it without activating it. A good example of magical traps that you will almost always trigger is the symbol spell list, as you just have to look at them to trigger them meaning you can't even spot them without detect magic up ahead of time and your eyes closed (or the sixth-sense of trap spotter if you somehow didn't look at the symbol).
That said, many magical traps are still easily detectable without accidentally triggering them, no metagame needed.
So looked couldn't seem to find an answer. When a rogue loses the Trapfinding ability. Is there a non campaign Trait,Feat, or Rogue Talent that allows him to get that ability back?
I have read a lot of comments regarding the lack of need for Trapfinding. I in two adventure paths and several home games including my own have always seen a need for a dedicated Trap finder. The half level makes a difference. Wrath of the Righteous our group ran into consistently DC 40 traps. These were in only the third of a six book series. One homebrew ran into a sewer system full of them. A few other people commented without the Trapfinding Rogues are a weak character bringing down the party's effectiveness. Again seen the exact opposite. The problem I have seen and read is people play them like a fighter rushing into combat with Martial classes then whine when they get beat down. They complain about how weak a Rogue is. A well designed and played Rogue is devastating. Combine him with a well designed and played martial class and monsters die within a round or two. Had a father and son often play those combinations in some fashion I watched dragons and high level demons just die. Rogues are not meant to rush into combat they are meant to be clever and sneaky. I have seen and played Rogues spending a round or two before attacking. Granted at low levels the sneak damage is not impressive. But they can be as effective as all the martial classes.
We always have a rogue in our parties, but they almost always give up Trapfinding. For one, we quite often forget about the ability, but it's truthfully not really needed. My players max out perception and disable device, and very few traps/locks have DC's so high that they cannot find/disarm/unlock them. They normally pick up a wand of Knock for those few doors they cannot unlock, and as for Magical traps, we're currently on our 8th adventure path, and I can count the number of magical traps we have found on one hand. So yeah, IMO Trapfinding is not needed.
One old D&D method for trap removal was load a donkey with oil bombs throw an apple down the corrider and watch the donkey go
And... that's when a GM should make Summon Minor Ally / Monster an orison/cantrip before someone calls PETA [Paladins for the Ethical Treatment of Animals].
One old D&D method for trap removal was load a donkey with oil bombs throw an apple down the corrider and watch the donkey goAnd... that's when a GM should make Summon Minor Ally / Monster an orison/cantrip before someone calls PETA [Paladins for the Ethical Treatment of Animals].
I had a game grind to a two session halt over the debate of whether it was ethical to send a summoned creature to its death to trip a trap.
They finally decided to do it anyways and summoned a bird to fly into what was essentially a giant disintegration web. The bird, being not dumb, flew over the web and landed perfectly fine on the other side. Man the glares I got!
Lol. But the rules explicitly state that summoned creatures don't actually die, unlike called creatures:
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below).
And if you are of good alignment and still worry about ethics, the rules have a wonderful twist: Summon Monster gets a descriptor matching the alignment of the summoned creature; so if you summon a creature with the celestial template or good subtype, summoning them is a good act, which automatically cancels out any evil act of using them to trigger a trap. :)
Lol. But the rules explicitly state that summoned creatures don't actually die, unlike called creatures:
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below).And if you are of good alignment and still worry about ethics, the rules have a wonderful twist: Summon Monster gets a descriptor matching the alignment of the summoned creature; so if you summon a creature with the celestial template or good subtype, summoning them is a good act, which automatically cancels out any evil act of using them to trigger a trap. :)
the argument was all in game and this was back in the days of earlier 3rd edition and if I remember correctly it was a creature from a bag that allowed you to summon animals (Grey Bag something something?).
It should also be noted for hilarity that the party had a Rogue and a couple of decently powerful casters with access to dispel magic, etc. They could also all fly or spider climb and the web was described as having spaces large enough for two men to fit through (it was there to block out really big creatures that lived on the other side of it). I've never seen a trap work so...well? to stale a party...until much later in the same campaign once they had reached 20th and found themselves in an ancient vault that was dimensionally locked and the ceiling was slowly lowering. Them trying to figure out how to open the last door took 3 weeks, 2 wish spells and countless death stares at yours truly.
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We always have a rogue in our parties, but they almost always give up Trapfinding. For one, we quite often forget about the ability, but it's truthfully not really needed. My players max out perception and disable device, and very few traps/locks have DC's so high that they cannot find/disarm/unlock them. They normally pick up a wand of Knock for those few doors they cannot unlock, and as for Magical traps, we're currently on our 8th adventure path, and I can count the number of magical traps we have found on one hand. So yeah, IMO Trapfinding is not...So looked couldn't seem to find an answer. When a rogue loses the Trapfinding ability. Is there a non campaign Trait,Feat, or Rogue Talent that allows him to get that ability back?
I have read a lot of comments regarding the lack of need for Trapfinding. I in two adventure paths and several home games including my own have always seen a need for a dedicated Trap finder. The half level makes a difference. Wrath of the Righteous our group ran into consistently DC 40 traps. These were in only the third of a six book series. One homebrew ran into a sewer system full of them. A few other people commented without the Trapfinding Rogues are a weak character bringing down the party's effectiveness. Again seen the exact opposite. The problem I have seen and read is people play them like a fighter rushing into combat with Martial classes then whine when they get beat down. They complain about how weak a Rogue is. A well designed and played Rogue is devastating. Combine him with a well designed and played martial class and monsters die within a round or two. Had a father and son often play those combinations in some fashion I watched dragons and high level demons just die. Rogues are not meant to rush into combat they are meant to be clever and sneaky. I have seen and played Rogues spending a round or two before attacking. Granted at low levels the sneak damage is not impressive. But they can be as effective as all the martial classes.
Knock opens stuck, barred, or locked doors, as well as those subject to hold portal or arcane lock. When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus.
A wand normally would have a Disable Device of +13. A character with high dexterity and maximize Disable Device will have a +13 at level 6 if DD is a class skill. I fail to see how the wand will be useful from that point onward.
The problem with trapfinding is that it involves traps. And traps need to be handled in a really deft manner, or they just suck. The way traps are randomly scattered in pre-made dungeons is awful. There's no choice; either check every square or wander aimlessly and occasionally get blasted.
If you manage to include traps in a meaningful way that isn't boring or lame, trapfinding becomes more useful.
With rogues in general, I'm inclined to agree with you. But for a game that's 85% combat simulator, a d8 HD, 3/4 base attack, the worst saves ever and some other features that are okay at best, you've got a character that's just missing *something*. I've crunched the numbers, and even assuming you're always getting a sneak attack, you're always woefully behind the fighter in terms of damage. And you're easier to hit. And you're more fragile.
I love the idea of the opportunistic combatant who holds back from the front line until the perfect moment to strike...but I think they should actually be *good* at that, then. If you plan out a surgical strike while your fighter friend wades into combat and starts racing up a body count, I think that, when you decide to act, you should outperform the fighter in that one moment. Three rounds of +9 (2d6+14) with great cleave versus one of +6/+6 (4d6+4) is...disheartening.
Wrath of the Righteous our group ran into consistently DC 40 traps. These were in only the third of a six book series.
Well that's just incorrect unless the DM was heavily modifying the AP.
There are Disable Device checks that are 30 or 40 in book 3, but they have been arcane locked and can be dispel magic'd. They're also by-passable since some of the doors are usually unlocked and you can find keys for them. There's also the ol' Skeleton Key via Adamantine weapon.
As Zza ni mentioned, Trapfinding is only absolutely necessary if you need to use disable device on Magic Traps. Even then, traps are just...not that important. Or interesting.
Even perfectly played and built, a Rogue just doesn't have the defenses to stay alive past like 8th level. D8, No accuracy booster, the worst two saves to have as bad saves...
So either you have to be extremely lucky or there are some serious houserules going on or dice fudging.
Wrath of the Righteous our group ran into consistently DC 40 traps. These were in only the third of a six book series.Well that's just incorrect unless the DM was heavily modifying the AP.
** spoiler omitted **
As Zza ni mentioned, Trapfinding is only absolutely necessary if you need to use disable device on Magic Traps. Even then, traps are just...not that important. Or interesting.
Even perfectly played and built, a Rogue just doesn't have the defenses to stay alive past like 8th level. D8, No accuracy booster, the worst two saves to have as bad saves...
So either you have to be extremely lucky or there are some serious houserules going on or dice fudging.
usually the traps you want to avoid at all costs are the magical ones that don't deal damage, but mess with the party.
symbols (such as death\insanity), teleport trap etc