I am wondering if any playtesters are really looking deeply into playing the gunslinger with a crossbow vs a firearm or if they are looking at building the same character as a fighter and as a gunslinger and how different they feel?
Like if the only thing that really makes them feel different is the feats, then it seems fair to question if gunslinger shouldn't just be a new fighter path with some additional new feats for the class.
I am going to try to look closely at the crossbows vs firearms thing myself in playtesting, but it does strike me that a fighter with a dueling pistol and point blank shot, parting shot at level 4 and then incredible aim at level 8 would be pretty deadly with a gun.
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If gunslinger had more unique and interesting ways to combine actions with the reload property. As both base features and as feats. I could see the differentiation.
The hybrid approach may be more fun than pure gunslinger, IMO. The melee capabilities of a fighter combined with firearms? I think I know what my next character will be...
If gunslinger had more unique and interesting ways to combine actions with the reload property. As both base features and as feats. I could see the differentiation.
Let's see...Ranger incentivizes with Crossbow Ace and has Running Reload. Fighter has nothing, as far as I can see. Gunslinger has both but also Risky Reload, Reloading Strike (Drifter only), Dance of Thunder and Perfect Readiness.
I guess I can see room for a bit more? Reloading Strike not being Drifter-only and having native access to a dual reload would be nice.
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With only 8 class hp Gunslinger is basically a glass cannon so id give him some kind of damage boost over fighter
This is something that doesn't seem to come up much.
Gunslingers are notably more fragile than Fighters. As such, they should be able to hit even harder than them.
With only 8 class hp Gunslinger is basically a glass cannon so id give him some kind of damage boost over fighterThis is something that doesn't seem to come up much.
Gunslingers are notably more fragile than Fighters. As such, they should be able to hit even harder than them.
This is a big part of why I am asking what the gunslinger brings to the table that the Fighter can't get with the addition of an archetype or a few new reloading feats.
Right now that is one more skill, and the Gunslinger's way. I like that the entry abilities of "the Way" primarily affect initiative and starting combat with a weapon drawn. It makes for a little more class specific flavor, but the follow up abilities feel more like random forced feat options than a growth of core character identity.
Also the whole way of the drifter feels like it could be accomplished better by a fighter who had access to a second level feat option for attacking with a ranged weapon followed up by a melee weapon.
I think something that could really boost the different Ways of the Gunslinger would be for them to grant different skill feats with the initial entry and a couple more times through out the leveling process to make them slightly more skill focused without just heaping on the massive pile of skill boosts of the investigator or the rogue. This would really help give the class and each of their specific paths some identity that is bigger than a new combat activity.
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I like the idea of giving a few bonus Skill feats to the Gunslinger, based on their Way's granted skill.
But I would change the skills based on what I see as the expected way to play the character in combat.
The Drifter is up front in the melee. Athletics is great for maneuvers that are useful up close. So Athletics is what I would give them instead of Acrobatics.
The pistolero moves around in the battlefield staying at the right range they need. For them I believe Acrobatics would be a good fit.
Stealth for the Sniper is already perfect IMO.
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This is a big part of why I am asking what the gunslinger brings to the table that the Fighter can't get with the addition of an archetype or a few new reloading feats.With only 8 class hp Gunslinger is basically a glass cannon so id give him some kind of damage boost over fighterThis is something that doesn't seem to come up much.
Gunslingers are notably more fragile than Fighters. As such, they should be able to hit even harder than them.
I don't like current Gunslinger. I've been a little shocked to see they were having Fighter proficiencies. What other class features could fit into the chassis without making it overpowered?
I would have prefered a strong class identity like the Swashbuckler, which is clearly way more than a free hand fighter with different feat choice.
It would be fin if gunslinger's were the ones to experiment and take risks with Guns. Like, they could choose to do a regular reload, or they could add a misfire chance for some bonus effect, this already shows up in most misfire feats (like the alchemical shot, or the scatter increaser), but it could be codified as a basic class feature, and the class feats add more options.
(This is a terrible feat name but...)
Overcharged Reload <Free>
Trigger: You Reload for the first time this turn
You add a special boost to the weapon you just reloaded such as adding extra gunpowder, increasing a crossbows draw length, or some other similar effect. Add one of the following effects to the next attack you make with that weapon and the weapon gains a misfire chance.
-The Weapon deals its fatal or deadly dice even on a hit. If the weapon did not have the fatal or deadly traits it gains deadly d8
and then feats like smoke curtain instead read something like "Add the following option to overcharged reload..." Notably, they probably don't need any extra action cost associated with them, as you're giving up the base effect (which will probably be a generic damage option).
This also lets these boosts stack with other special actions, like paired shot.
I kind of always felt the Fighter is the "problem class". It can pretty much just do everything every other class can do and sometimes better. Now this will be true for the Gunslinger too.
If Fighter didn't exist every class could just have fun unique features that didn't have to compare with a flat +2 proficiency. Gunslinger is going down the same path now too.
I can say one thing though the "Gunslinger’s Way" feel quite interesting to me and have oddly amazing synergy with archetypes.
Oddly the Gunslinger can now take Martial Artist and be legendary in unarmed at level 15 EVERY round you could dragon’s tail 3 targets at 0 MAP.
If their proficiencies don't scale like this then I apologies for my misunderstanding
It is just speculations but I was thinking/hoping that other classes would get gun feats or an basic gun archetype which would put Fighter above the Gunslinger even more.
Inventor is a class that gets super cool features though that make the class seem like it will be super fun.
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I think saying fighter is a problem class is a Lazy copout tbh.
The issue with gunslinger is not fighter. It's gunslinger.
If they had a plethora of ways to action hack reloads the issue would solve itself.
Feature- fast reload. Combine the reload action with one non strike single action.
Basically an open ended feat that lets you combine any one non strike action and a reload action. End result is performing both with a single action.
Boom. Class is instantly less clunky and able to do unique things constantly.
Wich fighters cannot replicate.
I think saying fighter is a problem class is a Lazy copout tbh.
The issue with gunslinger is not fighter. It's gunslinger.
If they had a plethora of ways to action hack reloads the issue would solve itself.
Feature- fast reload. Combine the reload action with one non strike single action.
Basically an open ended feat that lets you combine any one non strike action and a reload action. End result is performing both with a single action.
Boom. Class is instantly less clunky and able to do unique things constantly.
Wich fighters cannot replicate.
Well I was mainly just trying to say it is hard to make features for classes that are better than +2. Gunslinger is the first class that just gets that too and they will also be put on the pedestal now.
The way archetypes are written there will be some funky builds with martial artist/mauler/archer gunslingers with legendary proficiencies.
Poor Monk is going to be weaker than a Gunslinger for unarmed attacks too.
Most features can be grabbed with feats in PF2 except for "normally" styles/edges and stuff. So we have no idea what the future holds. Even if these features were added to a gunslinger other classes could probably get them too.
I do admit guns are quite unique but the way they are I am not sure anyone but Gunslingers/Fighter will want to touch them since the +2 to crit seems too important.
It is always tough making a character "better" than a fighter because of their 10% bonus hit and 10% bonus crit chance. So far I think they have done a good job but sure feels weird playing in a game when your ally hits and crits so much more than you.