Can actions granted by feats (such as twin takedown, furious finish, mountain stance etc.) be readied and used as a reaction?
It's unclear to me whether the "single action" mentioned in the Ready section is referring to any action or just to standard actions.
Thank you!
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There's nothing limiting Ready to only readying Basic Actions. It just needs to be a single action that you're capable of.
Got it. Thank you.
Flurry Blows could be taken for that matter.
Unrelated question. Typically M.A.P doesn't apply to reactions. Would it be for the second attack of Flurry of Blows?
I would think it should. Though it would be action expensive to game the system to avoid M.A.P for that second attack though.
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Flurry Blows could be taken for that matter.Unrelated question. Typically M.A.P doesn't apply to reactions. Would it be for the second attack of Flurry of Blows?
I would think it should. Though it would be action expensive to game the system to avoid M.A.P for that second attack though.
Remember: "If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it’s not your turn."
Also, being a reaction has nothing to do with MAP. It's not being your turn that has to do with MAP. Reactions triggered during your own turn have MAP normally.
Which is why Cleave is a truly bad power. That should get errated to be worth taking.
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Unrelated question. Typically M.A.P doesn't apply to reactions. Would it be for the second attack of Flurry of Blows?
Because Flurry of Blows has the Flourish trait it can't be used twice in the same round. I would say that if a monk used Flurry of Blows as the first action, they could not then Ready another Flurry of Blows.
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Which is why Cleave is a truly bad power. That should get errated to be worth taking.
Off the topic but why do you say this? How Cleave functions is to give the character an extra Strike that they would not normally have. Yea, it could be the 4th attack, it could be the 2nd attack.
I don't see Cleave being a "truly bad power".
Unrelated question. Typically M.A.P doesn't apply to reactions. Would it be for the second attack of Flurry of Blows?Because Flurry of Blows has the Flourish trait it can't be used twice in the same round. I would say that if a monk used Flurry of Blows as the first action, they could not then Ready another Flurry of Blows.
I dont think the question there was about a second flurry of blows, but about the second subordinate action strike in a readied flurry of blows.
The only rule that's needed to answer it, as far as I can tell, is the one I posted above. This does point toward readied flurry actually being an extremely strong option, as something like "move into position, ready an action to flurry if Grog moves into a flanking position behind my target" could result in both attacks at 0 MAP, if nothing stops Grog from getting in place.
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I think you are applying the rules incorrectly.
You prepare to use an action that will occur outside your turn. Choose a single action or free action you can use, and designate a trigger. Your turn then ends. If the trigger you designated occurs before the start of your next turn, you can use the chosen action as a reaction (provided you still meet the requirements to use it). You can’t Ready a free action that already has a trigger.
If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it’s not your turn.
The the action that is Readied is Flurry of Blows action, not a Strike action. Flurry of Blows has a built-in MAP that would apply as normal.
Make two unarmed Strikes. If both hit the same creature, combine their damage for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses. Apply your multiple attack penalty to the Strikes normally. As it has the flourish trait, you can use Flurry of Blows only once per turn.
The action that was Readied was Flurry of Blows. When the reaction is used, we use the Flurry of Blows action.
So no, a character could not avoid the MAP on the second Strike.
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Which is why Cleave is a truly bad power. That should get errated to be worth taking.Off the topic but why do you say this? How Cleave functions is to give the character an extra Strike that they would not normally have. Yea, it could be the 4th attack, it could be the 2nd attack.
I don't see Cleave being a "truly bad power".
Because it is a waste of your reaction.
Normally it is a third or fourth attack. Probably at -10 to hit. So its about 10% of the value of a normal hit. For a Barbarian who likely isn't using an agile weapon to reduce the MAP. (A largely bad idea for them anyway). Instead they could thake Attack of Opportunity which will trigger almost as much but be a full value 100% attack. Then there are all the other really good level 6 and 8 Barbarian feats to consider as well.
Its a trap. Not technically totally useless, just such a bad choice in comparison to what else you can take.
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It could be the second Strike. It is not always be the 3rd or 4th Strike. Depends on the situation. It does give an option to use in the heat of battle.
Keep in mind that Attack of Opportunity is used outside the character's turn while cleave is used inside the character's turn. True, if a character uses the reaction in their turn then character doesn't have the reaction outside the turn.
And 2e is nothing but making choices. Not all choices have to be perfect to get the a perfect result. Some choices are made because of the character concept or trying to achieve a desired playing style.
But if someone is trying to min/max, yea likely not a choice they will make.
But if its your second strike what are you doing with your other actions. They now get the extra MAP. Little difference unless you are constantly using other actions.
A hard no from me.
Make two unarmed Strikes. If both hit the same creature, combine their damage for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses. Apply your multiple attack penalty to the Strikes normally. As it has the flourish trait, you can use Flurry of Blows only once per turn.The action that was Readied was Flurry of Blows. When the reaction is used, we use the Flurry of Blows action.
So no, a character could not avoid the MAP on the second Strike.
The multiple attack penalty applies only during your turn, so you don’t have to keep track of it if you can perform an Attack of Opportunity or a similar reaction that lets you make a Strike on someone else’s turn.
I guess we disagree on how to read "as normal". My reading that outside your turn there is no MAP, so as normal would be "don't apply any map"
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Normal on a readied action is the MAP you had at the end of your turn, though.
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Normal on a readied action is the MAP you had at the end of your turn, though.
But if you "make a strike on someone else's turn", you don't have to keep track of it.
"MAP only applies during your turn".
So how can a readied action that you use when it's not your turn have any penalty?
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Because readied action specifically states that it's an exception.
"If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it’s not your turn."
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Can you ready a second flurry of blows after using it on your turn though? The rules say "You can use only 1 action with the flourish trait per turn", not per round.
Because readied action specifically states that it's an exception.
"If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it’s not your turn."
Thanks
Normal on a readied action is the MAP you had at the end of your turn, though.
Thanks for pointing that out.
I'll amend my statement to: "when using Flurry of Blows outside your turn, MAP will not increase between the 2 Strikes"
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Normal on a readied action is the MAP you had at the end of your turn, though.Thanks for pointing that out.
I'll amend my statement to: "when using Flurry of Blows outside your turn, MAP will not increase between the 2 Strikes"
You're still not looking at it the right way. By this reading, Flurry of Blows is the Goto Action to take.
Flurry of Blows has it own rules about MAP. All Ready says is the MAP at the time the Ready Action was declared is used for the reaction triggered. When the reaction is triggered the MAP starts at whatever and then continues to advance as normal.
The second Strike of a Readied Flurry of Blows most definitely adds MAP. It can't be 0 because of the specific rules contained in Flurry of Blows action.
I guess we disagree on how to read "as normal". My reading that outside your turn there is no MAP, so as normal would be "don't apply any map"
But your ignoring the SPECIFIC rule contained in Flurry of Blows concerning MAP. The action being taken is Flurry of Blows, not a Strike. The rule about MAP outside your turn is a GENERAL rule.
Can you ready a second flurry of blows after using it on your turn though? The rules say "You can use only 1 action with the flourish trait per turn", not per round.I don't believe you can, as the requirements for ready are "Choose a single action or free action you can use". If you used a flourish you wouldn't be able to use the other flourish while you are readying it.
You're right. Thanks.
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But your ignoring the SPECIFIC rule contained in Flurry of Blows concerning MAP. The action being taken is Flurry of Blows, not a Strike. The rule about MAP outside your turn is a GENERAL rule.I'm not sure I see your point tbh. The specific rule for FoB says "Apply your multiple attack penalty to the Strikes normally."
Normal for an out-of-turn attack would be no MAP and normal for a readied action would be to start at what you had when readying. So if you started at 0 then you'd end up at 0 too.
And yes that seems both stupid and a bit over powered to me but thems the breaks.
No, "normally" is within the normal for the feat, not for the rules of MAP, which is a general rule.
So how does the SPECIFIC rule for the Ready action that "If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it’s not your turn."
It seems to me that the designers already understand that a Ready action is going to be used outside the character's turn so they made it clear that MAP will apply on a Ready action.
We disagree on how to read "normal".
You are reading normal to be "always increase MAP". This is "the norm" because multiple attacks occur most often during your turn and MAP increased between attacks on your turn.
I'm reading normal to be "only increase MAP during your turn". This is "the norm" because the rules clearly state that MAP is only increased during your turn.
Can we agree the text is ambiguous?
The only rule that's needed to answer it, as far as I can tell, is the one I posted above. This does point toward readied flurry actually being an extremely strong option, as something like "move into position, ready an action to flurry if Grog moves into a flanking position behind my target" could result in both attacks at 0 MAP, if nothing stops Grog from getting in place.
I had missed the rule about persisting current MAP for readied attack actions, so thanks for reminding me of that.
And yeah, I agree with Gary Bush that having both attacks at the same MAP because it isn't your turn is a bit too much. Though I don't think it is a good candidate for abuse because of the action loss to use the ready action in the first place. Niche use, yes. Not a thing to spam every turn though.
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No. If you are looking only at those two parts, sure. But there is a third rule from the Ready action that talks about MAP outside the character's normal turn.Yes but that one only sets the starting point for the MAP, it doesn't say anything about it progressing.
It doesn't have to because FoB rules already state that it progresses as normal between the two attacks. So, if I move twice into a flank position and ready a FoB when my ally gets into flank position, I make my first strike at full bonus, and my second strike at -5 because it progresses the MAP as normal, even when it's not your turn.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're back to the start!
What does "normal" mean?
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're back to the start!
What does "normal" mean?
??Normal?? as per Flurry of blows which applies MAP normally. Which is the most specific rule and the source of the problem.
I count 3 different possible interpretations for the word normal here:
Normal as per default rules for MAP in your turn.
Normal as per default rules for MAP which doesn't apply outside your turn.
Normal as per readied actions which as an exception apply MAP normally.
If someone had raised this as an objection to PF2 I'd have taken them seriously. This is typical natural language, rule hell.
Welcome to Pathfinder 2.
The whole point of extending MAP to readied actions is to stop people getting around MAP by setting a simple trigger like my opponent's turn starts (or he takes a breath). Which they could do every round.
Personally I'd be applying full carried over MAP to both strikes in the readied Flurry. Because its the most normal "normal". Every monk getting a no MAP attack at the start of the turn of the person after them in initiative every round, does seem a broken interpretation.
I do see that readying an action is a legal way to get around the flourish trait one per turn limit for single action flourishes. Thanks for pointing that out to me. It may well be a loop hole the developers will see as an exploit and close. But for now it is certainly legit.
Looking at other single actions that you can ready. There are a lot. The list includes double actions that don't count.
The Rangers Twin Take Down and Hunted Strike are covered by "once per round" wording so can't be used here if you used them in your turn.
Because its costs 2 actions to ready there is not much benefit if all you are getting are two basic actions for 2 actions and a reaction.
So I don't see any real exploits here. But its still nice to realise you can prepare these advanced actions when you want to ready an action.
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You are still limited to one Flourish per turn AFAIK.
Yes. So readying an action to trigger in your own turn with a flourish action doesn't work if you have already used that flourish. But you can ready it for the start of the next enemies turn, and it works fine.
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You are still limited to one Flourish per turn AFAIK.Yes. So readying an action to trigger in your own turn with a flourish action doesn't work if you have already used that flourish. But you can ready it for the start of the next enemies turn, and it works fine.
True. I am not sure it is broken though. After all, MAP keeps on working, so we would need a 1-action Flourish that does not incur MAP and with a result that will stack in some way. Not sure if it even exists.
I find the PF2 system extremely hard to really break. Which is an awesome quality IMO.
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Yes. So readying an action to trigger in your own turn with a flourish action doesn't work if you have already used that flourish. But you can ready it for the start of the next enemies turn, and it works fine.Not sure that would work, see MEATSHED's post further up.
Good point. I had forgotten about that.
PF2 is made of Pure Adamantine by Legendary crafters, I swear.
Yes. So readying an action to trigger in your own turn with a flourish action doesn't work if you have already used that flourish. But you can ready it for the start of the next enemies turn, and it works fine.Not sure that would work, see MEATSHED's post further up.
The rule is
You prepare to use an action that will occur outside your turn. Choose a single action or free action you can useThat is not tight. There is context to that statement outside your turn you can use a flourish in the next turn.
Again natural language hell.
I maybe agree with you a little.
??Normal?? as per Flurry of blows which applies MAP normally. Which is the most specific rule and the source of the problem.
I count 3 different possible interpretations for the word normal here:
Normal as per default rules for MAP in your turn.
Normal as per default rules for MAP which doesn't apply outside your turn.
Normal as per readied actions which as an exception apply MAP normally.It has to be the "normal" for the situation at hand.
"normal" for your turn is MAP progression (0/5/10 and so on)
"normal" for outside your turn is no MAP
"normal" for readied action is to start at the MAP you had when taking the ready action (i.e a bit stricter than what you wrote)).Add it together and I get it to end up as starting at what you had but not progressing. And as I said above, yes I think that is stupid but I can't read it any other way.
Because if you use the reasoning that the standard 0/5/10 progression is the only "normal" that the FoB text refers to to exclude the "no MAP outside your turn" exception then you also have to exclude FoB from benefiting from the "agile" exception. And that just makes everything wonky.
Normal as per readied actions which as an exception apply MAP normally.Just to clear things up (as it has been mentioned a few times) this is NOT true.
The Ready doesn't say anywhere that "normal" progression applies. The Ready action says "If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready.". There is a difference.
Sorry but I am with you zero percent. Just because you make a point does not meant the forum generally, or anyone in particular agrees. I change my mind about lots of things during these discussions, and do try to acknowledge when I have.
Normal is not a key word, don't try to turn it into one. It is used in the text of the Flurry of Blows, which is, perhaps, the most specific rule in this situation. There are a lot of ways of interpreting this. Yes is comes from selective interpretation of what is normal. But that is the point - it is not defined, it can be interpreted selectively.
Normal can mean as per normal in your turn. It can mean you MAP progresses as per your normal turn or not. It can mean as per normal for a readied action.
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PF2 is made of Pure Adamantine by Legendary crafters, I swear.Yea the rules system seems fairly solid tbh, unfortunately the language used to convey those rules falls flat on its **** a bit to often IMO.
The PF2 designers have done a good job. It stacks up well compared to other systems.
However they have not extended the traits and key words far enough. They have butched some of their traits by for example making a difference between an "attack" and an "attack roll". Natural language has limits.
The system has bugs. The authors can see the bugs because they know what it is supposed to do. In a lot of places the rules are totally ambiguous, or produce the "wrong" result. In a lot of places people are just going to disagree with the designers intent.
That's life.
Please fix the bugs.
Outside semantic arguements. Which from an honest non-exploitive use of logic makes more sense.
1)That the same action,FoB, is somehow more accurate by doing it outside of your turn than during your turn when you have the most control
(Yes i do understand that technically everything happens in the same six seconds, but that is another rabbithole im not running down)2)That the same action,FoB, is just as accurate whenever you do it.
Because option 1 means Monks should go monastic archer or use of bo staffs and parry.
For a readied flurry of blows? I'd extend the MAP from the players turn and have it increase. Once you have established that the MAP is there due to the ready rules, then it just feels wrong to take it away for that second attack in the readied flurry.
There is no common sense reason a readied flurry should be any better that a normal flurry.
But I totally get it if some people want to go with MEATSHED's interpretation and just say no.