Polymorph + Athletics actions?

[wowitschris]

Hi, new to pathfinder 2e.

I was thinking about making a druid that uses polymorph to grapple/trip/shove foes, relying on the flat +athletics modifier.

However, it is unclear to me if this is allowed - battle form says "[the attacks listed below] are the only attacks you can make" and it's unclear to me if means I can't use anything else with the "attack" trait (like grapple, escape, trip) or if it's just sloppy wording referring to how i can't use any other kind of weapon to attack enemies.

Doing some googling has gotten me conflicting perspectives from various time periods. So - is there any kind of consensus or ruling on whether or not I can do athletics maneuvers when in a battle form?

[Cordell Kintner]

They are attacks unfortunately. The modifier is for jumping and climbing. Under "Page 446: Attack Rolls" in the FAQ:

Spoiler:

Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

To clarify the different rules elements involved:

An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.

An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.

Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.

The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well. As it says later on in the definition of attack roll "Striking multiple times in a turn has diminishing returns. The multiple attack penalty (detailed on page 446) applies to each attack after the first, whether those attacks are Strikes, special attacks like the Grapple action of the Athletics skill, or spell attack rolls." There is inaccurate language in the Multiple Attack Penalty section implying it applies only to attack rolls that will be receiving errata.

[Gortle]

No there is no consensus.

10% of people think its a good idea. Perhaps because Codzilla is hopelessless overpowered. Despite Codzilla not even existing in this edition.

30% of people think that is the rules and just suck it up and play it that way.

60% of people think AYFKM. Of course a huge ape can Shove, Grapple and Escape!!! If you can turn into an animal why can't you behave like the animal does. They deliberately choose to ignore the rule as being unintended and unreasonable. Clearly the designers are just trying to rule out any other strike that the Druid might think he had.

The numbers are just a guess.

I have a long rules discussion about this and other problems with polymoprh here. I really wish the designers would wade in with some clarifications. But they have not yet.

Honestly I think the new errata Cordell Kintner quotes, causes more problems than it fixes. It's on topic but it doesn't directly have an impact here either way. This was always a problem.

[Squiggit]

As the rules are written, you can't use anything with the Attack trait that isn't the listed in the battle form's entry.

As for whether or not that's intentional? As far as I know no designer has commented on this specific interaction and neither CRB errata has touched this issue.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

I would allow it personally, as there are plenty of creatures that have no real use for athletics values without allowing for the manoeuvers. (unless we think they added it to a phoenix purely so it could swim ;) )

But yeah, RAW it doesn't allow for it atm.

[wowitschris]

Thanks for the responses. It is weird that this is such an odd rules area. I can see how RAW you can’t do athletics stuff, but at the same time I don’t see what the point of e.g. getting a disarm weapon in Avatar form (Calistria) or trip (Urgathoa, Zon-Kothun) is unless you are actually able to perform those athletics maneuvers. Ah well.

Funnily, some of the battle form for Avatar have “bull rush” as a weapon trait, which doesn’t appear to be defined anywhere in CRB, Advanced, or Bestiary. Is this an old way to say “shove” that was missed in editing? Because that would raise further questions about polymorph + athletics RAW!

[Redalike]

In remastered has been changed to "the only attacks you can Strike with". So now you can grapple trip shove since they are attacks but not strikes. Clearly it was bad written and has been corrected.

[Tyriphian the Thread Psychopomp]

It was changed in the 3rd printing of the Core Rulebook.