Where's the best place to find online games? And what's the best VTT to handle PF2? (Roll20 seemed ... lacking?)
My wife especially loved the system, but our in-person game fell apart due to the pandemic, and transitioning it to a VTT had some problems (necessitating in me ending the campaign).
I'm not seeing much in PFS on here. Are there other avenues?
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There are several LFG channels on websites like Reddit, the forums here, some discord servers, and things like that.
As far as VTTs for Pf2, FoundryVTT has been AMAZING. A single purchase, and constantly updating. I absolutely love the system and the support it has for PF2.
Personally, my group came to be when our MMO guild decided to try PF and absolutely loved it. Been playing ever since.
Harles wrote: Where's the best place to find online games? And what's the best VTT to handle PF2? (Roll20 seemed ... lacking?)
My wife especially loved the system, but our in-person game fell apart due to the pandemic, and transitioning it to a VTT had some problems (necessitating in me ending the campaign).
I'm not seeing much in PFS on here. Are there other avenues?
I always use warhorn. There are various VTTs, but Roll20 is by far the most common, and most games use that for the maps/rolls, with Discord open in a separate window for voice.
GayBirdGM wrote: There are several LFG channels on websites like Reddit, the forums here, some discord servers, and things like that.
As far as VTTs for Pf2, FoundryVTT has been AMAZING. A single purchase, and constantly updating. I absolutely love the system and the support it has for PF2.
Personally, my group came to be when our MMO guild decided to try PF and absolutely loved it. Been playing ever since.
I have Fantasy Grounds (Classic) but haven't purchased the PF2 rules yet - and I think only the Playtest is available for free.
I have purchased for Roll20, but its implementation on there is pretty bad. The character sheets don't work, spells and feats can't be dropped in, and there isn't a lot of content.
I'm looking into Foundry VTT, but I can't find out much. Will I have to put in every detail of the encounters? Are there adventure modules? Can it populate character sheets with the rulebooks?
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Harles wrote: GayBirdGM wrote: There are several LFG channels on websites like Reddit, the forums here, some discord servers, and things like that.
As far as VTTs for Pf2, FoundryVTT has been AMAZING. A single purchase, and constantly updating. I absolutely love the system and the support it has for PF2.
Personally, my group came to be when our MMO guild decided to try PF and absolutely loved it. Been playing ever since.
I have Fantasy Grounds (Classic) but haven't purchased the PF2 rules yet - and I think only the Playtest is available for free.
I have purchased for Roll20, but its implementation on there is pretty bad. The character sheets don't work, spells and feats can't be dropped in, and there isn't a lot of content.
I'm looking into Foundry VTT, but I can't find out much. Will I have to put in every detail of the encounters? Are there adventure modules? Can it populate character sheets with the rulebooks? FoundryVTT has drag and drop functionality for character sheets, and a compendium for PF2 that is constantly updated. There are also modules[much like the APIs in roll20] that people make that can make it easier to use. One of my favorite modules is the PF2e monster import tool. You just copy the sheet from the PDF, paste it in, and it generates the sheet. A little fixing on spacing of text is needed but it's easier than remaking it yourself, and half the time I dont even need it. Unique monsters are added to the compendium pretty quickly! I just have to put the token images in. I also find the dynamic lighting easier to deal with than roll20. Doors are actually DOORS the players can interact with, or I can lock to stop them and all that.
The creator does development streams semi regularly, which are always fun to watch.
Foundry does have a discord, here, and you can get a lot more answers about it's functionality there if you're interested.
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Harles wrote:
I have purchased for Roll20, but its implementation on there is pretty bad. The character sheets don't work, spells and feats can't be dropped in, and there isn't a lot of content.
That is not correct, the character sheets for PF2 work fine in Roll20. Maybe whoever set up your games did not specify that it should use the PF2 custom sheets.
Spells and feats can be dropped in only if you pay for the compendium, which I have not done. But some GMs have that enabled and it is easy enough to add things manually, IMO.
I pay for the lowest-cost level of subscription at Roll20 only for the character vault import/export functionality. But that is really not necessary to get started with it and get used to it.
mrspaghetti wrote: Harles wrote:
I have purchased for Roll20, but its implementation on there is pretty bad. The character sheets don't work, spells and feats can't be dropped in, and there isn't a lot of content.
That is not correct, the character sheets for PF2 work fine in Roll20. Maybe whoever set up your games did not specify that it should use the PF2 custom sheets.
Spells and feats can be dropped in only if you pay for the compendium, which I have not done. But some GMs have that enabled and it is easy enough to add things manually, IMO.
I pay for the lowest-cost level of subscription at Roll20 only for the character vault import/export functionality. But that is really not necessary to get started with it and get used to it. I set it up and ran it as GM. I purchased every rules resource available on Roll20, including the highest tier subscription.
And I can say emphatically that it doesn't work. You cannot drag equipment, heritages, feats, or much of anything else from the compendium. It doesn't put in weapon qualities, calculate bulk, put in AC for armor, or many other things that should be considered basic functionality. Sometimes bonuses are applied from stats and sometimes not, so you have to go through the character sheet with a fine-toothed comb to see what works and what doesn't.
It's not worth what I paid for it. The free, built-in rules system on FG works better than what I paid $50+ to do on Roll20 with its Core Rulebook.
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mrspaghetti wrote: Harles wrote:
I have purchased for Roll20, but its implementation on there is pretty bad. The character sheets don't work, spells and feats can't be dropped in, and there isn't a lot of content.
That is not correct, the character sheets for PF2 work fine in Roll20. Maybe whoever set up your games did not specify that it should use the PF2 custom sheets.
Spells and feats can be dropped in only if you pay for the compendium, which I have not done. But some GMs have that enabled and it is easy enough to add things manually, IMO.
I pay for the lowest-cost level of subscription at Roll20 only for the character vault import/export functionality. But that is really not necessary to get started with it and get used to it. Roll20's drag and drop functionality for PF2e rulebooks was a pretty big issue. People paid full price for books and that function was always "coming soon, not yet here guys!"
Which is ridiculous. I cannot imagine anyone paying for the roll20 version of the rulebooks just to have them and not have that functionality. Might as well just buy the PDF from Paizo, support Paizo and get the same level of use.
Add onto that, the constant API crashes and extremely laggy update to dynamic lighting that barely worked at first, my group left to find something better. So we found Foundry. I highly suggest it, 60 dollars, one and done.
Both R20 and FG have forums and discord for LFG, then there's also reddit. It can be tough though, the vast majority is looking for 5e, lucky PF2 is popular enough to see some games, but finding the right times has been brutal for me.
I love FGU, it can be a lot to learn though, the UI seems to turn some people off, also the semi rare connectivity issue can be crippling.
I was in a 5e game in Foundry and it felt like R20 just better in nearly every way, I just worry that the majority of it is basically user created so when people stop converting rules over your left with nothing. If dice are your jam, foundry has some pretty options to roll.
GayBirdGM wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: Harles wrote:
I have purchased for Roll20, but its implementation on there is pretty bad. The character sheets don't work, spells and feats can't be dropped in, and there isn't a lot of content.
That is not correct, the character sheets for PF2 work fine in Roll20. Maybe whoever set up your games did not specify that it should use the PF2 custom sheets.
Spells and feats can be dropped in only if you pay for the compendium, which I have not done. But some GMs have that enabled and it is easy enough to add things manually, IMO.
I pay for the lowest-cost level of subscription at Roll20 only for the character vault import/export functionality. But that is really not necessary to get started with it and get used to it. Roll20's drag and drop functionality for PF2e rulebooks was a pretty big issue. People paid full price for books and that function was always "coming soon, not yet here guys!"
Which is ridiculous. I cannot imagine anyone paying for the roll20 version of the rulebooks just to have them and not have that functionality. Might as well just buy the PDF from Paizo, support Paizo and get the same level of use.
Add onto that, the constant API crashes and extremely laggy update to dynamic lighting that barely worked at first, my group left to find something better. So we found Foundry. I highly suggest it, 60 dollars, one and done.
Yeah, we ended up flipping through our Core Rulebooks, using the search features on Archives of Nethys (because we couldn't navigate the book too well), using character creation on Pathbuilder, trying to plug everything into Roll20, while I was running the adventure from a PDF (because the adventure also isn't on Roll20).
Being able to cut down on just a few of those resources would've improved play so much!
OrochiFuror wrote: Both R20 and FG have forums and discord for LFG, then there's also reddit. It can be tough though, the vast majority is looking for 5e, lucky PF2 is popular enough to see some games, but finding the right times has been brutal for me.
I love FGU, it can be a lot to learn though, the UI seems to turn some people off, also the semi rare connectivity issue can be crippling.
I was in a 5e game in Foundry and it felt like R20 just better in nearly every way, I just worry that the majority of it is basically user created so when people stop converting rules over your left with nothing. If dice are your jam, foundry has some pretty options to roll.
I have Fantasy Grounds Classic, and I'm hesitant to upgrade and sinking in more cash until I'm sure I like it. (I didn't care for it the first time I tried to learn it.) After going all-in with Roll20, I feel a little more hesitant.
Fantasy Grounds seems pretty terrible when it comes to putting in new material (such as maps), whereas with Roll20 I could take a screen capture of a PDF battlemap, put a grid on it, and be ready to go in a few minutes. Fantasy Grounds seems to have no way to do this that actually lines up appropriately unless you buy professional maps designed for virtual tabletop.
I put my money on Foundry.
We're kind of old fashioned, but with the pandemic we've been playing on Roll20, just using it for maps and dice rolling. All the character sheets and stats and things we're just doing old school. For that it works quite well.
I've played around with automating it a bit, but while it would be nice to have all the character abilities and monsters built in, for us it's not worth either the money or the hassle.
Easy enough to just type in the rolls or make simple macros for the common stuff.
I'll take a look at the Foundry though.
thejeff wrote: We're kind of old fashioned, but with the pandemic we've been playing on Roll20, just using it for maps and dice rolling. All the character sheets and stats and things we're just doing old school. For that it works quite well.
I've played around with automating it a bit, but while it would be nice to have all the character abilities and monsters built in, for us it's not worth either the money or the hassle.
Easy enough to just type in the rolls or make simple macros for the common stuff.
I'll take a look at the Foundry though.
I can do OSR systems "old-fashioned" but there is so much to track in Pathfinder that I found that method impossible after a session. Especially with several new (and/or casual) players in the group. Most players could not even print blank character sheets.
Harles wrote:
Yeah, we ended up flipping through our Core Rulebooks, using the search features on Archives of Nethys (because we couldn't navigate the book too well), using character creation on Pathbuilder, trying to plug everything into Roll20, while I was running the adventure from a PDF (because the adventure also isn't on Roll20).
Being able to cut down on just a few of those resources would've improved play so much!
I'd say hit up one of the Foundry dev streams when it happens, and you might win the giveaway for a Foundry key! Also check out their discord and see what cool stuff they offer.
One of the modules I use is an adventure PDF importer and it just lets you upload your AP PDF and automatically sets the maps, sheets, journal entries, and all that. Granted, it's a freely made module so it doesn't follow an update schedule, but it has all of Age of Ashes, most of Extinction curse[some PDFs dont have the dynamic lighting set for it, but you can get the rest], and half of Agents of Edgewatch in it so far, as well as a good amount of PFS scenarios.
The most important module for me, though, is the sound effects on doors. Very important and fun.
GayBirdGM wrote: Harles wrote:
Yeah, we ended up flipping through our Core Rulebooks, using the search features on Archives of Nethys (because we couldn't navigate the book too well), using character creation on Pathbuilder, trying to plug everything into Roll20, while I was running the adventure from a PDF (because the adventure also isn't on Roll20).
Being able to cut down on just a few of those resources would've improved play so much!
I'd say hit up one of the Foundry dev streams when it happens, and you might win the giveaway for a Foundry key! Also check out their discord and see what cool stuff they offer.
One of the modules I use is an adventure PDF importer and it just lets you upload your AP PDF and automatically sets the maps, sheets, journal entries, and all that. Granted, it's a freely made module so it doesn't follow an update schedule, but it has all of Age of Ashes, most of Extinction curse[some PDFs dont have the dynamic lighting set for it, but you can get the rest], and half of Agents of Edgewatch in it so far, as well as a good amount of PFS scenarios.
The most important module for me, though, is the sound effects on doors. Very important and fun. That certainly beats what I was doing on Roll20, when I had to add all maps, NPCs, monsters, and dynamic lighting for Age of Ashes.
Harles wrote: GayBirdGM wrote: Harles wrote:
Yeah, we ended up flipping through our Core Rulebooks, using the search features on Archives of Nethys (because we couldn't navigate the book too well), using character creation on Pathbuilder, trying to plug everything into Roll20, while I was running the adventure from a PDF (because the adventure also isn't on Roll20).
Being able to cut down on just a few of those resources would've improved play so much!
I'd say hit up one of the Foundry dev streams when it happens, and you might win the giveaway for a Foundry key! Also check out their discord and see what cool stuff they offer.
One of the modules I use is an adventure PDF importer and it just lets you upload your AP PDF and automatically sets the maps, sheets, journal entries, and all that. Granted, it's a freely made module so it doesn't follow an update schedule, but it has all of Age of Ashes, most of Extinction curse[some PDFs dont have the dynamic lighting set for it, but you can get the rest], and half of Agents of Edgewatch in it so far, as well as a good amount of PFS scenarios.
The most important module for me, though, is the sound effects on doors. Very important and fun. That certainly beats what I was doing on Roll20, when I had to add all maps, NPCs, monsters, and dynamic lighting for Age of Ashes. Yeah, PF adventures aren't really as big a sell as 5e stuff for them, I think. Their numbers were like...70+% of people use r20 for 5e, so a lot of focus goes onto that. Which is fine, but leaves the PF people in the dust. I remember the Return of the Runelords annoyance, I was running that and they just didnt release half the AP after releasing the first half until months after I was already done doing it myself and running it. Blegh
If you go into the Foundry discord and hang out in the Pf2e section, maybe I'll see ya there!
Harles wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: Harles wrote:
I have purchased for Roll20, but its implementation on there is pretty bad. The character sheets don't work, spells and feats can't be dropped in, and there isn't a lot of content.
That is not correct, the character sheets for PF2 work fine in Roll20. Maybe whoever set up your games did not specify that it should use the PF2 custom sheets.
Spells and feats can be dropped in only if you pay for the compendium, which I have not done. But some GMs have that enabled and it is easy enough to add things manually, IMO.
I pay for the lowest-cost level of subscription at Roll20 only for the character vault import/export functionality. But that is really not necessary to get started with it and get used to it. I set it up and ran it as GM. I purchased every rules resource available on Roll20, including the highest tier subscription.
And I can say emphatically that it doesn't work. You cannot drag equipment, heritages, feats, or much of anything else from the compendium. It doesn't put in weapon qualities, calculate bulk, put in AC for armor, or many other things that should be considered basic functionality. Sometimes bonuses are applied from stats and sometimes not, so you have to go through the character sheet with a fine-toothed comb to see what works and what doesn't.
It's not worth what I paid for it. The free, built-in rules system on FG works better than what I paid $50+ to do on Roll20 with its Core Rulebook. What you describe is a lack of features you want. That is very different from a flat statement that they "don't work". Yes, there is some manual entry, but it most certainly works once you have it set up with the right information.
TSRodriguez wrote: I put my money on Foundry. A lot of us have put their money on roll20 instead.
I am confident to say that everyone who does not regret it needs to watch the 2Perception Extinction Curse stream, at the first two episodes after the start of book 3 (when they switched to Foundry after 5 years of roll20 premium + compendiums). It gets to the point where it's hard to follow the story and nothing gets done because they're too busy praising Foundry or gushing over some detail they just noticed.
I may or may not have been causing their transition.
mrspaghetti wrote: Harles wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: Harles wrote:
I have purchased for Roll20, but its implementation on there is pretty bad. The character sheets don't work, spells and feats can't be dropped in, and there isn't a lot of content.
That is not correct, the character sheets for PF2 work fine in Roll20. Maybe whoever set up your games did not specify that it should use the PF2 custom sheets.
Spells and feats can be dropped in only if you pay for the compendium, which I have not done. But some GMs have that enabled and it is easy enough to add things manually, IMO.
I pay for the lowest-cost level of subscription at Roll20 only for the character vault import/export functionality. But that is really not necessary to get started with it and get used to it. I set it up and ran it as GM. I purchased every rules resource available on Roll20, including the highest tier subscription.
And I can say emphatically that it doesn't work. You cannot drag equipment, heritages, feats, or much of anything else from the compendium. It doesn't put in weapon qualities, calculate bulk, put in AC for armor, or many other things that should be considered basic functionality. Sometimes bonuses are applied from stats and sometimes not, so you have to go through the character sheet with a fine-toothed comb to see what works and what doesn't.
It's not worth what I paid for it. The free, built-in rules system on FG works better than what I paid $50+ to do on Roll20 with its Core Rulebook. What you describe is a lack of features you want. That is very different from a flat statement that they "don't work". Yes, there is some manual entry, but it most certainly works once you have it set up with the right information. Age of Ashes doesn't work because it's not on there.
Drag and drop from the compendium doesn't work reliably. You're better off just copying and pasting from Archives of Nethys.
Magic items, feats, ancestries - none of those work. And when you average a TPK every two sessions, that becomes a problem.
I mean if I have to physically type everything in there and do the math for it, why not just use a PDF?
Because you only have to set up your character sheet once, and you can't click a button on a pdf to roll for attacks, spells, damage, saves, etc.
I am just providing a counterpoint to your assertion that Roll20 "doesn't work". I have played dozens of games on it as a player, and several as a GM and my experience has been that it works just fine. To get started for $0 it is a great platform IMO. It is true that there is a fair amount of manual entry, but that doesn't bother me and didn't take that long. Once the sheet is set up it is trivial to maintain and level up, and play is smooth.
Harles,
your best bet is to search warhorn and discord for virtual PF 2E and 1E events. Warhorn also lists the virtual conventions.
The format you wish to play on is really up to you. If you want to GM, it's not hard to assemble a group. There are a few working systems as you have seen mentioned. Each system/format comes with pros and cons, but nothing beats a real table, with real pawns and miniatures.
That said, there is no way I could have played at PaizoCon, Gen Con, Lone Star Con, and one other convention all in the same year. The virtual format has its place, and once we get over the pandemic, I hope it is a feature of Pathfinder and RPGs that remains.
Many groups prioritize local players who were regularly meeting at hobby stores and game shops with a waitlist and working in folks as best as they can. Contact your local or closest VC or VL.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Roll20 drag and drop works great with feats, gear, and spells. Saves loads of time!
If I drag and drop a armor, shield, or weapon, it automatically updates my AC and attack listing. It also calculates all the bulk for me.. If it's a feat with an action, it creates an entry in the action section of my character sheet as well, so I don't have to switch tabs to activate the feat.
It's totally great. My guess is that earlier posters simply attempted it before the features were ready (been up for at least a month insofar as I can tell).
Well I have not had any luck finding a "usual" game yet. I posted in like 4 different discords and both LFG reddit threads for PF2. It would probably be much easier if either of you wanted to GM though.
I have been able to find PFS games regularly on Warhorn though. Just have to look 2-3 weeks in advanced. Every once and awhile you can get into games less than a week if you are lucky though.
For "best" VTT I think it is safe to say Foundry is hard not to recommend. All that is required is for the GM to spend $50 or less if it is on sale and everyone can play. It pretty much has everything included compared to FG/Roll20 which both want you to buy EVERY book that came out.
If you want to run an AP there is some support in Foundry but I am not sure how well it works, Fantasy Grounds Classic/Unity you can pretty much just buy the AP though and you are good to go. If your money isn't tight then Fantasy Grounds is quite good. It does have quite a bit of a learning curve.
Some people prefer Roll20 and I admit Roll20 works super easy for PFS since players can import/export characters easy while in FGU/Foundry you pretty much have to email the player your character sheets. Which isn't "that" bad. After using Roll20/FGU/Foundry it is hard to recommend Roll20. Fantasy Grounds tracking modifiers is just too nice of a feature. Foundry is getting there too. Roll20 you just roll and the GM has to apply everything.
mrspaghetti wrote: Because you only have to set up your character sheet once, and you can't click a button on a pdf to roll for attacks, spells, damage, saves, etc.
I am just providing a counterpoint to your assertion that Roll20 "doesn't work". I have played dozens of games on it as a player, and several as a GM and my experience has been that it works just fine. To get started for $0 it is a great platform IMO. It is true that there is a fair amount of manual entry, but that doesn't bother me and didn't take that long. Once the sheet is set up it is trivial to maintain and level up, and play is smooth.
True, for free it's not bad. I guess I just feel like I should get more bang for a $210 investment ($60 Core Rulebook, $50 Bestiary, $50 APG, $50 Roll20 Plus Annual Membership).
Ravingdork wrote: Roll20 drag and drop works great with feats, gear, and spells. Saves loads of time!
If I drag and drop a armor, shield, or weapon, it automatically updates my AC and attack listing. It also calculates all the bulk for me.. If it's a feat with an action, it creates an entry in the action section of my character sheet as well, so I don't have to switch tabs to activate the feat.
It's totally great. My guess is that earlier posters simply attempted it before the features were ready (been up for at least a month insofar as I can tell).
Yeah, if it can do all that now, it's definitely improved. When we ended our Roll20 PF2 campaign out of frustration last month, none of that was on there.
Sounds like I'm at a "sunk cost fallacy" moment. I have to decide if all the time I've spent learning Roll20 (dynamic light, putting in maps, etc.) and the money to buy the books is a good enough reason to stay with a platform that might not be as good as the others.
A point which won't matter to many, but will be critical for a few, is that Foundry and Fantasy Grounds don't work natively with Linux. That's why I've not used either of those, personally.
Ravingdork wrote: Roll20 drag and drop works great with feats, gear, and spells. Saves loads of time!
If I drag and drop a armor, shield, or weapon, it automatically updates my AC and attack listing. It also calculates all the bulk for me.. If it's a feat with an action, it creates an entry in the action section of my character sheet as well, so I don't have to switch tabs to activate the feat.
It's totally great. My guess is that earlier posters simply attempted it before the features were ready (been up for at least a month insofar as I can tell).
Just got on to test the compendium. Still doesn't work with classes, backgrounds, ancestries. You know, the most important first steps of any character creation.
If you're making a character and start out with those steps and they don't do anything, what's the likelihood you're going to continue?
Harles wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Roll20 drag and drop works great with feats, gear, and spells. Saves loads of time!
If I drag and drop a armor, shield, or weapon, it automatically updates my AC and attack listing. It also calculates all the bulk for me.. If it's a feat with an action, it creates an entry in the action section of my character sheet as well, so I don't have to switch tabs to activate the feat.
It's totally great. My guess is that earlier posters simply attempted it before the features were ready (been up for at least a month insofar as I can tell).
Just got on to test the compendium. Still doesn't work with classes, backgrounds, ancestries. You know, the most important first steps of any character creation.
If you're making a character and start out with those steps and they don't do anything, what's the likelihood you're going to continue? I'm not sure most people use the VTTs for creating their characters, as you apparently do. Personally, I create my character the old-fashioned way and then put the info into the VTT sheet.
Even those that rely on drag-and-drop functionality I suspect are mostly interested in spells, feats and gear. I guess your bar is a lot higher than mine.
mrspaghetti wrote: I'm not sure most people use the VTTs for creating their characters, as you apparently do. Personally, I create my character the old-fashioned way and then put the info into the VTT sheet.
Even those that rely on drag-and-drop functionality I suspect are mostly interested in spells, feats and gear. I guess your bar is a lot higher than mine. Yeah, I can't even make a character for PF2 without access to a character builder, app, or other electronic tool. I have no idea where modifiers go, how they increase with levels, etc. Maybe that's on me for running games in several systems at the same time. But damn, I would like a tool to help with that on a VTT, especially to help guide newer players.
We came from playing D&D 5e on Roll20 with a pretty robust character creator to PF2, which pretty much required manual data entry for everything (at least when we started the campaign). Noodley bits would get in the way of play - like damage on this would be wrong, it would take the bonus from the wrong thing, hit points wouldn't increase with level, etc.
It was a major stumbling block to just enjoying the game.
Harles wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Roll20 drag and drop works great with feats, gear, and spells. Saves loads of time!
If I drag and drop a armor, shield, or weapon, it automatically updates my AC and attack listing. It also calculates all the bulk for me.. If it's a feat with an action, it creates an entry in the action section of my character sheet as well, so I don't have to switch tabs to activate the feat.
It's totally great. My guess is that earlier posters simply attempted it before the features were ready (been up for at least a month insofar as I can tell).
Just got on to test the compendium. Still doesn't work with classes, backgrounds, ancestries. You know, the most important first steps of any character creation.
If you're making a character and start out with those steps and they don't do anything, what's the likelihood you're going to continue? What VTT can you drag and drop those things? When I was testing out Foundry I couldn't do it on there either.
I'm distrustful of technology to implement complex sets of rules (unless I wrote the program myself). I've seen too many people with wrong builds resulting from using character builders.
Relying on those can affect game balance quite a bit, which will in turn negatively affect enjoyment of the game. If you don't know the rules then you'll never notice if a rule is being implemented wrong by the tech.
mrspaghetti wrote: I'm distrusting of technology to implement complex sets of rules (unless I wrote the program myself). I've seen too many people with wrong builds resulting from using character builders.
Relying on those can affect game balance quite a bit, which will in turn negatively affect enjoyment of the game. If you don't know the rules then you'll never notice if a rule is being implemented wrong by the tech.
On the other side of the coin, I have seen dozens of examples of people handwriting their Character over the years who have their sheet littered with mistakes when even the most rudimentary piece of software would have warned them that they were not following the rules. In my experience people who aren't using some tools rarely are able to turn in a completed and legal Character without sitting down with a GM for a full build audit or someone else who does have access to actual tools.
Beyond that, I don't understand how you think you can somehow more easily audit a sheet that was written by someone without the help of tools versus one that was already assessed by a piece of software custom-built to handle the rules... skepticism is fine and all but your argument makes no sense at all and discounts a huge segment of players who use builders as a means to help with accessibly to the system. If 100% of people had to read the game rules from cover to cover and really understand them before actually creating a character and getting to play the product would never have been printed in the first place because it wouldn't have enough of a following or momentum to add new customers and players to the hobby.
Part of the problem is that the VTTs are trying to be two distinct things: Character builder and table top environment.
The character builder part is what requires access to all the books and an ever expanding and complex network to account for feat bonuses and interactions. Even if you create the characters elsewhere, there are enough situational things that you really want a lot of it to be recognized by the VTT if you're going to really make use of the character sheet.
The VTT needs the also complex, but relatively static, graphics side along with some basic dice rolling.
A particular platform can be good at one, but not the other.
As I said above, we've been using Roll 20 for the graphics side and various other character generators for character building. It would be convenient to have it all built in to the VTT sheet for die rolling and the like, but it looks like a lot of work, money or both. Especially with some custom or 3rd party items and abilities.
But it's easy enough to use macros or just type in rolls with bonuses from your sheet to make it work.
I'd like to try some of the others to experiment with the character building side, but the cost to even experiment seems pretty high.
Themetricsystem wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: I'm distrusting of technology to implement complex sets of rules (unless I wrote the program myself). I've seen too many people with wrong builds resulting from using character builders.
Relying on those can affect game balance quite a bit, which will in turn negatively affect enjoyment of the game. If you don't know the rules then you'll never notice if a rule is being implemented wrong by the tech.
On the other side of the coin, I have seen dozens of examples of people handwriting their Character over the years who have their sheet littered with mistakes when even the most rudimentary piece of software would have warned them that they were not following the rules. In my experience people who aren't using some tools rarely are able to turn in a completed and legal Character without sitting down with a GM for a full build audit or someone else who does have access to actual tools.
Beyond that, I don't understand how you think you can somehow more easily audit a sheet that was written by someone without the help of tools versus one that was already assessed by a piece of software custom-built to handle the rules... skepticism is fine and all but your argument makes no sense at all and discounts a huge segment of players who use builders as a means to help with accessibly to the system. If 100% of people had to read the game rules from cover to cover and really understand them before actually creating a character and getting to play the product would never have been printed in the first place because it wouldn't have enough of a following or momentum to add new customers and players to the hobby. Well nothing can be audited, regardless of the source, if nobody at the table actually knows the rules. So if the players and the GM are all relying on technology alone, I think that's a bad idea.
Themetricsystem wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: I'm distrusting of technology to implement complex sets of rules (unless I wrote the program myself). I've seen too many people with wrong builds resulting from using character builders.
Relying on those can affect game balance quite a bit, which will in turn negatively affect enjoyment of the game. If you don't know the rules then you'll never notice if a rule is being implemented wrong by the tech.
On the other side of the coin, I have seen dozens of examples of people handwriting their Character over the years who have their sheet littered with mistakes when even the most rudimentary piece of software would have warned them that they were not following the rules. In my experience people who aren't using some tools rarely are able to turn in a completed and legal Character without sitting down with a GM for a full build audit or someone else who does have access to actual tools.
Beyond that, I don't understand how you think you can somehow more easily audit a sheet that was written by someone without the help of tools versus one that was already assessed by a piece of software custom-built to handle the rules... skepticism is fine and all but your argument makes no sense at all and discounts a huge segment of players who use builders as a means to help with accessibly to the system. If 100% of people had to read the game rules from cover to cover and really understand them before actually creating a character and getting to play the product would never have been printed in the first place because it wouldn't have enough of a following or momentum to add new customers and players to the hobby. At least if you find a character builder mistake, you can report it and maybe get it fixed or at least watch out for it from then on.
There are no such solutions or patterns to hand built character mistakes.
Salamileg wrote: Harles wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Roll20 drag and drop works great with feats, gear, and spells. Saves loads of time!
If I drag and drop a armor, shield, or weapon, it automatically updates my AC and attack listing. It also calculates all the bulk for me.. If it's a feat with an action, it creates an entry in the action section of my character sheet as well, so I don't have to switch tabs to activate the feat.
It's totally great. My guess is that earlier posters simply attempted it before the features were ready (been up for at least a month insofar as I can tell).
Just got on to test the compendium. Still doesn't work with classes, backgrounds, ancestries. You know, the most important first steps of any character creation.
If you're making a character and start out with those steps and they don't do anything, what's the likelihood you're going to continue? What VTT can you drag and drop those things? When I was testing out Foundry I couldn't do it on there either. Fantasy Grounds does it for D&D 5e and Roll20 has a pretty good character creator, also for 5e. Fantasy Grounds' PF2 demo set (using only the playtest rules) is also better than what I spent $200+ to do on Roll20. It can "drag and drop" and adjusts ability scores automatically.
mrspaghetti wrote: Themetricsystem wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: I'm distrusting of technology to implement complex sets of rules (unless I wrote the program myself). I've seen too many people with wrong builds resulting from using character builders.
Relying on those can affect game balance quite a bit, which will in turn negatively affect enjoyment of the game. If you don't know the rules then you'll never notice if a rule is being implemented wrong by the tech.
On the other side of the coin, I have seen dozens of examples of people handwriting their Character over the years who have their sheet littered with mistakes when even the most rudimentary piece of software would have warned them that they were not following the rules. In my experience people who aren't using some tools rarely are able to turn in a completed and legal Character without sitting down with a GM for a full build audit or someone else who does have access to actual tools.
Beyond that, I don't understand how you think you can somehow more easily audit a sheet that was written by someone without the help of tools versus one that was already assessed by a piece of software custom-built to handle the rules... skepticism is fine and all but your argument makes no sense at all and discounts a huge segment of players who use builders as a means to help with accessibly to the system. If 100% of people had to read the game rules from cover to cover and really understand them before actually creating a character and getting to play the product would never have been printed in the first place because it wouldn't have enough of a following or momentum to add new customers and players to the hobby. Well nothing can be audited, regardless of the source, if nobody at the table actually knows the rules. So if the players and the GM are all relying on technology alone, I think that's a bad idea. Building characters by hand doesn't mean you know the rules. Using a tool doesn't mean you don't.
I doubt the vast majority of players have all the dozens of game rule books internalized. You can build a character using the books. You can audit a character using the books. Even if you don't know all the rules. You just have to walk through it all and look things up.
I recently played a PFS game where a level 2 cleric tried to cast a second level spell.
My point is that characters created by new players who are unfamiliar with the rules should have their characters checked by someone who is familiar with the rules. Even a quick once-over. That is regardless of whether the character was created using tech or not. If absolutely nobody at the table knows the rules, then nobody is likely to notice mistakes, tech or no.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I use automated tools like PathBuilder 2E to audit my players' characters, as well as my own. It always finds human error. Every time.
I'm firmly in the camp that such tools will make for less errors, not more.
And I'm not worried about the app's (rare) error. In addition to my having decades of rules knowledge prior to the app's development, the app also has a great customer support/feedback system in place. (Several new fixes and features were even reported by me in fact.) They also keep a log of all such reports (unless the reporter wants discretion for some reason) so I'm generally aware of the few things that still need to be fixed or improved.
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You can usually find a game at PFSchat.com, the official organized play Discord server for PFS/SFS. There's often a few people just looking to play even if you don't want to use organized play rules.
I use Roll20 primarily and occasionally Fantasy Grounds as my VTTs. I'm more familiar with Roll20 and that's what most of the other GMs I play with use, but I have a sneaking suspicion it's not actually "better" than Fantasy Grounds, just more popular.
For character building/tracking aids, pretty much everyone in the groups I regularly play PF2 with uses Pathbuilder2E. I've got it on my phone and tablet along with a slew of characters I'll play someday.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote: You can usually find a game at PFSchat.com, the official organized play Discord server for PFS/SFS. Your link appears to be broken.
Ravingdork wrote: Michael Sayre wrote: You can usually find a game at PFSchat.com, the official organized play Discord server for PFS/SFS. Your link appears to be broken. Weird. It looks like it's properly formatted, I wonder if it's some funky background thing happening because the text and URL are the same.
Anyways, PFSchat.com should work if you copy/paste it into your browser.
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Michael Sayre wrote: Ravingdork wrote: Michael Sayre wrote: You can usually find a game at PFSchat.com, the official organized play Discord server for PFS/SFS. Your link appears to be broken. Weird. It looks like it's properly formatted, I wonder if it's some funky background thing happening because the text and URL are the same.
Anyways, PFSchat.com should work if you copy/paste it into your browser. You need the http:// part, or it prepends a paizo address.
PFSchat.com
Themetricsystem wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: I'm distrusting of technology to implement complex sets of rules (unless I wrote the program myself). I've seen too many people with wrong builds resulting from using character builders.
Relying on those can affect game balance quite a bit, which will in turn negatively affect enjoyment of the game. If you don't know the rules then you'll never notice if a rule is being implemented wrong by the tech.
On the other side of the coin, I have seen dozens of examples of people handwriting their Character over the years who have their sheet littered with mistakes when even the most rudimentary piece of software would have warned them that they were not following the rules. In my experience people who aren't using some tools rarely are able to turn in a completed and legal Character without sitting down with a GM for a full build audit or someone else who does have access to actual tools.
Beyond that, I don't understand how you think you can somehow more easily audit a sheet that was written by someone without the help of tools versus one that was already assessed by a piece of software custom-built to handle the rules... skepticism is fine and all but your argument makes no sense at all and discounts a huge segment of players who use builders as a means to help with accessibly to the system. If 100% of people had to read the game rules from cover to cover and really understand them before actually creating a character and getting to play the product would never have been printed in the first place because it wouldn't have enough of a following or momentum to add new customers and players to the hobby. Created my first character by hand (Vixleby, a Goblin Ranger with Flurry and a Wolf Animal companion). Somehow missed, forgot, didn’t see, didn’t know that Goblins gain a bonus to charisma so my character sheet said:
Strength 12, Dexterity 18, Constitution 14, Intellect 12, Wisdom 12, Charisma 10
However upon reviewing the rules having chosen an Unbreakable Goblin who gain a bonus to Free which I chose wisdom, Dexterity and Charisma with a penalty to wisdom, with the Rough Rider feat at first level, the Outrider Background putting my points into Constitution and Dexterity, the Ranger Class choosing Dexterity for Primary and putting my finalizing ability scores into: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom my finalized ability scores should have been:
Strength 12, Dexterity 18, Constitution 14, Intellect 10, Wisdom 12, and Charisma 12.
Oops. I’m pretty sure everything else is correct right now but I should probably review that again.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Just had a ranger player tonight realize he got Survival for free, after about 6 games of playing without it. Worse, aside from a few raised eyebrows, none of the rest of us questioned it when he declared he was a ranger without Survival in the first game.
Humans are easily fallible.
Harles wrote:
I have Fantasy Grounds Classic, and I'm hesitant to upgrade and sinking in more cash until I'm sure I like it. (I didn't care for it the first time I tried to learn it.) After going all-in with Roll20, I feel a little more hesitant.
Fantasy Grounds seems pretty terrible when it comes to putting in new material (such as maps), whereas with Roll20 I could take a screen capture of a PDF battlemap, put a grid on it, and be ready to go in a few minutes. Fantasy Grounds seems to have no way to do this that actually lines up appropriately unless you buy professional maps designed for virtual tabletop.
In FGU it takes maybe 30 seconds to make a grid. Put any image you want into the campaign folder, same as classic, then either 1: hit the grid button and drag to the size you want a single box, it then makes a grid that size over the whole image, or 2: put in the size you want each box into the map editor. You can then move the grid and resize it when ever you want.
The big thing for me though is line of sight, takes a bit of time but you can setup all the LOS objects for limiting what characters can see. Took me about 10 minutes my first time to make a map I took off Google into a very exciting little encounter.
You can also build your own maps, the default objects leave a lot to be desired though. Need to find a good set to buy that will cover all your needs.
Fantasy grounds has a YouTube channel, can check out a lot of tutorials there to see if you like the tools.
For me the automation in FG and Foundry alone make R20 useless for anything other then esoteric systems, you could get better visuals using table top simulator. Speeding up combat so you can interact and role play more is fantastic, let the machines worry about math.
One of the GMs I was playing with had all the 5e and PF2 books for R20, FG and a bunch on D&D beyond, as well as all the physical books. I thought he was crazy. You need to ask if the extra cost is worth the functionality you will be getting for swapping to something new. Foundry is far more reasonable for price. I haven't been able to check since middle of this year but FGU has had a connection issue, from 3 groups of 6 people each that I've tried to play there, one person from each group could never connect (always the same person). So that's something to be aware of.
OrochiFuror wrote: Harles wrote:
I have Fantasy Grounds Classic, and I'm hesitant to upgrade and sinking in more cash until I'm sure I like it. (I didn't care for it the first time I tried to learn it.) After going all-in with Roll20, I feel a little more hesitant.
Fantasy Grounds seems pretty terrible when it comes to putting in new material (such as maps), whereas with Roll20 I could take a screen capture of a PDF battlemap, put a grid on it, and be ready to go in a few minutes. Fantasy Grounds seems to have no way to do this that actually lines up appropriately unless you buy professional maps designed for virtual tabletop.
In FGU it takes maybe 30 seconds to make a grid. Put any image you want into the campaign folder, same as classic, then either 1: hit the grid button and drag to the size you want a single box, it then makes a grid that size over the whole image, or 2: put in the size you want each box into the map editor. You can then move the grid and resize it when ever you want.
The big thing for me though is line of sight, takes a bit of time but you can setup all the LOS objects for limiting what characters can see. Took me about 10 minutes my first time to make a map I took off Google into a very exciting little encounter.
You can also build your own maps, the default objects leave a lot to be desired though. Need to find a good set to buy that will cover all your needs.
Fantasy grounds has a YouTube channel, can check out a lot of tutorials there to see if you like the tools.
For me the automation in FG and Foundry alone make R20 useless for anything other then esoteric systems, you could get better visuals using table top simulator. Speeding up combat so you can interact and role play more is fantastic, let the machines worry about math.
One of the GMs I was playing with had all the 5e and PF2 books for R20, FG and a bunch on D&D beyond, as well as all the physical books. I thought he was crazy. You need to ask if the extra cost is worth the functionality you will be getting for... I was able to set the grid okay for an official produced map, but it didn't go well working off a screen capture from a PDF (which is what I do on Roll20 - and it's very successful).
Then I need to find how to actually save maps after they're made - if it's even possible. After I close it, the grid, tokens, etc. are all gone and I have to restart.
Still not really getting the hang of FG due to the UI being so cluttered and I have limited screen real estate.
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I hate online gaming but its becoming more and more necessary, sadly.
Roll20 has never worked for me - I've always struggled to understand why its so ubiquitous. Fantasy Grounds was too difficult for me but I might give foundry a try.
Thanks for all the perspectives!
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