Came up in my game yesterday. Monster has player (A) grabbed and his ally, player (B), successfully Shoves the creature 5 feet (Telekinetic Maneuver in this case). Does that automatically end his grab on player A because he was shoved? We ruled it would but I can’t find a rule reference.
The relevant ruling is under the immobilized condition, which grabbed applies.
You can’t use any action with the move trait. If you’re immobilized by something holding you in place and an external force would move you out of your space, the force must succeed at a check against either the DC of the effect holding you in place or the relevant defense (usually Fortitude DC) of the monster holding you in place.
But since the grabber was the one that was shoved, I can't say for sure.
EDIT: Found something else under grapple.
Critical Success Your opponent is restrained until the end of your next turn unless you move or your opponent Escapes.
Success Your opponent is grabbed until the end of your next turn unless you move or your opponent Escapes.
Seems like moving the grabber, forced or otherwise, would end the grab. Although, I can see "unless you move" being read as specifically voluntary movement. Not sure on this.
The way I would rule is if player B's shove beat the grapple DC then it breaks the grapple and shoves the monster. If it fails to beat the grapple DC but beats the monsters fort DC then the monster and player B are shoved together.
The way I would rule is if player B's shove beat the grapple DC then it breaks the grapple and shoves the monster. If it fails to beat the grapple DC but beats the monsters fort DC then the monster and player B are shoved together.
The grabbing creature is not immobilized so there should be no need to beat the grapple DC.
I'm assuming the intention is to break apart the grappler and the person grappled.
I'm not giving it away for free, just because you shove them around.
They have to beat the grapple DC to break them apart, otherwise you've just shoved the grappler and the victim moves along with them.
*This may or may not be the most correct understanding of the rules, but it's what makes sense to me. Otherwise it seriously lessens the effectiveness of grapple, which has already been drastically lowered from PF1.
I'm assuming the intention is to break apart the grappler and the person grappled.
I'm not giving it away for free, just because you shove them around.
They have to beat the grapple DC to break them apart, otherwise you've just shoved the grappler and the victim moves along with them.
*This may or may not be the most correct understanding of the rules, but it's what makes sense to me. Otherwise it seriously lessens the effectiveness of grapple, which has already been drastically lowered from PF1.
Well, in general, the DC to Shove is roughly the same than the DC to break the Grapple (as the default DC to break the Grapple is the Fortitude DC and most grappling creatures are ones with high Fortitude).
But yeah, I was speaking of RAW.I personally think it's nice to allow Shove to be a potent maneuver sometimes. Shove is most of the time useless as it's only useful if you throw an enemy from a cliff. Also, Shove increases your MAP and as such is very costly. So, I wouldn't change the rules in that case, as I think they open up some interesting actions for a rare option.
I had asked my PF Society VL and she ruled it as you are Claxon. I was hoping for a more concrete rule to reference since it could become an in-game disagreement. I thought another way to go was to give the grabbed player a free escape attempt but that would not be RAW.
Allowing shove to break grapples makes it a strictly superior maneuver to just escaping, which doesn't seem like RAI. I'm with Claxon on this one.
You mean Shove used by the grappled creature or Shove used by someone else?
Because to Shove you need a free hand or a Shove weapon. It's an Athletics check, while Escape gives you more choice. It also builds your MAP. It can't be used if the creature is too big or outside your reach. It has a nasty critical failure. And most of the time the DC will be very close to the DC to Escape the grapple so it won't be useful outside of the 5ft of movement.So I don't see it as strictly superior. And anyway, in most cases you won't be able to use it.