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Okay, this is going to go a bit long. My apologies.
In the City of Greyhawk box set for AD&D 2e, there is a group detailed called the Shape hangers. They kidnap adventurers and newcomers and then polymorph them into other types of creatures, primarily elves, then butcher them. The reason they do this is for money. There is an alchemist at the Wizards Guild willing to pay for the special ingredients needed to make certain potions without asking questions. Remember this is AD&D 2e, where making any magical item usually involved a quest for special ingredients. Potions of giant strength required giant body parts. Potions of longevity required elf blood and body parts.
I really like the idea but I can't figure out how to get it to work under Pathfinder rules.
Potions of longevity aren't in the rules but I can add them in as an ultra rare item. I could also say that Polymorph Any Object can be cast on unwilling targets as well as willing. Or they have a magic item that allows them to cast personal target spells on other targets and they use it for Alter Self.
BUT
I know the rules are only guidelines but I do prefer to stay within the rules if possible. Is there a way to make this work within the rules without resorting to house rules and home brew magic items?
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The normal polymorph spells will not work, as, in Pathfinder, they don't change the type of the creature, while 2nd ed. AD&D polymorph changed you to the actual creature. There is a 3rd ed. D&D adventure with a spell that changed you to the new type, actually it was used to make humans to repopulate an area where they were decimated by a dragon.
The spell is Create faux humans. I think you can adapt that spell.
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oh my....
It will be FAR EASIER and SENSIBLE to just use PF1.0 for the rules and mechanics. Port/transfer the 'theme' and flavor of Greyhawk over. You will have to get creative as the magic in Greyhawk is more varied and can be higher powered. Magic of Faerûn is something you should be familiar with.
I apologize for not being clear enough. We are playing PF 1.0 in the Greyhawk setting. I am attempting to convert some of the material from 2e AD&D Greyhawk rules over to PF 1.0 rules because it's a really cool idea and makes for a great plot in the campaign.
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The normal polymorph spells will not work, as, in Pathfinder, they don't change the type of the creature, while 2nd ed. AD&D polymorph changed you to the actual creature.Does it matter if the type isn't changed? What does it actually mean if the type isn't changed?
The type, in Pathfinder, is what defines what a creature is instead of what it appears to be.
In Pathfinder (sorry if I repeat that, but it is something that was changed with this edition of the rules) when you polymorph you essentially put up a very good disguise that allows you to use some of the abilities of the copied creatures, and nothing more. Generally, the spell has a duration, and when it ends you revert to your original form.In earlier versions of the game, most polymorph spells had a permanent duration, so it can be dispelled, but as long as is last you are the creature.
To harvest components for magic items you need something that can't be dispelled, so something with an instantaneous duration. For your purpose, the best solution is to say that the Shape Changers have a secret ritual that permanently changes a creature race, possibly at a horrible cost for the creature (like some permanent negative level that can't be recovered until the ritual is canceled), so it is not worth it to use it for legal purposes.
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Thank you Diego Rossi and Scott Wilhelm. I think I understand now. While you can look and act like whatever creature you have polymorphed into, you are just a human in elf clothing.
As for dispelling the polymorph, that won't happen as the kidnapped person would be killed as soon as they were polymorphed.
I have a question about allowing PoA to change type but, as has been pointed out, that is a house rule question for another forum.
I wouldn't worry about the 'type' limitation. There is no specific rule saying that 'rhino horn' must come from a creature of the Animal type. If you're the shape of a rhino and have the natural attacks of a rhino, then it's entirely possible that your nutritional and magical-component properties are that of a rhino. It's only an issue for spells that say they can only target creatures of the Animal type, etc.
Basically, you want to invent a custom spell based on things like Baleful Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object that works the way you want it to work - affects unwilling targets (save negates), can transform them into a creature of (whatever type the story needs), does not wear off if the subject dies, etc. If it's going to be possible for the PCs to learn this spell, you need to make sure it's not overpowered as a combat buff, disguise, or combat debuff (a long casting time should fix this last one).
Note that Polymorph Any Object would allow you to transform a stray dog or pigeon into the target creature, which sounds a lot easier than kidnapping adventurers. I'd suggest making this a spell that only affects creatures of the Humanoid type.
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I wouldn't worry about the 'type' limitation. There is no specific rule saying that 'rhino horn' must come from a creature of the Animal type. If you're the shape of a rhino and have the natural attacks of a rhino, then it's entirely possible that your nutritional and magical-component properties are that of a rhino. It's only an issue for spells that say they can only target creatures of the Animal type, etc.
Basically, you want to invent a custom spell based on things like Baleful Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object that works the way you want it to work - affects unwilling targets (save negates), can transform them into a creature of (whatever type the story needs), does not wear off if the subject dies, etc. If it's going to be possible for the PCs to learn this spell, you need to make sure it's not overpowered as a combat buff, disguise, or combat debuff (a long casting time should fix this last one).
Note that Polymorph Any Object would allow you to transform a stray dog or pigeon into the target creature, which sounds a lot easier than kidnapping adventurers. I'd suggest making this a spell that only affects creatures of the Humanoid type.
Thank you for the clarification on Type.
This is getting complicated.
In the section on targets, it says "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing..." So, since the kidnappers make their victims unconscious when they kidnap them, this overcomes the willing issue meaning they could use Polymorph for this
However, Polymorph only lasts 1 minute per level, even if the kidnappers kill the victim immediately after polymorphing them. But Permanency is also a 5th level spell. So, the kidnappers cast Polymorph then Permanency on their unconscious victims, then kill them and sell the body parts.
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In the section on targets, it says "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing..." So, since the kidnappers make their victims unconscious when they kidnap them, this overcomes the willing issue meaning they could use Polymorph for this
No. Being unconscious doesn't remove the saving throw. It makes you "willing" for spells that work only if the target is "willing", like Teleport and Dimension Door.
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No. Being unconscious doesn't remove the saving throw. It makes you "willing" for spells that work only if the target is "willing", like Teleport and Dimension Door.
There's a saving throw no matter which polymorph spell they use. Being unconscious just allows the kidnappers to use the lower level Polymorph spell instead of the higher level Polymorph Any Object.
Take a look at the Trophy collecting rules in Ultimate Wilderness. They work just as well for collecting valuable component parts as they do for trophies.
Basically it's 3 skill checks. 1 to ID the Components that can be of use, 2 to harvest them and 3 to properly prepare them. Change the skills up slightly from what is needed for Trophy taking and you are good to go.
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Advice: as a GM it is not your job to stop the players from making unscrupulous, Evil, Good, or compassionate actions, only arbitrate/judge and implement the consequences. You should turn these moral decisions into further events/situations for roleplaying rather than use a Hammer to punish the players. You need only decide if parts from polymorphed creatures can be used as specifically determined material components for spellcasting or magic item creation. The why or how of it lies within your realm as a GM to integrate your taste and sensibilities into the game....
This is getting complicated.In the section on targets, it says "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing..." So, since the kidnappers make their victims unconscious when they kidnap them, this overcomes the willing issue meaning they could use Polymorph for this
However, Polymorph only lasts 1 minute per level, even if the kidnappers kill the victim immediately after polymorphing them. But Permanency is also a 5th level spell. So, the kidnappers cast Polymorph then Permanency on their unconscious victims, then kill them and sell the body parts.
?
I don't see anything in the text you cited about morality.|
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yes, I can see that kidnapping sentients(or creatures), polymorphing them, killing them and then selling the parts is totally a Good thing and not immoral at al. 8^0Advice: as a GM it is not your job to stop the players from making unscrupulous, Evil, Good, or compassionate actions, only arbitrate/judge and implement the consequences. You should turn these moral decisions into further events/situations for roleplaying rather than use a Hammer to punish the players. You need only decide if parts from polymorphed creatures can be used as specifically determined material components for spellcasting or magic item creation. The why or how of it lies within your realm as a GM to integrate your taste and sensibilities into the game....
This is getting complicated.In the section on targets, it says "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing..." So, since the kidnappers make their victims unconscious when they kidnap them, this overcomes the willing issue meaning they could use Polymorph for this
However, Polymorph only lasts 1 minute per level, even if the kidnappers kill the victim immediately after polymorphing them. But Permanency is also a 5th level spell. So, the kidnappers cast Polymorph then Permanency on their unconscious victims, then kill them and sell the body parts.
?
I don't see anything in the text you cited about morality.
Let's put it another way: I don't see anything in that text about the GM interfering in any way with the kidnapping guys. He is only asking if there is any rule for that.
So, why you feel that you need to give him advice on how he should be a GM?
Advice: as a GM it is not your job to stop the players from making unscrupulous, Evil, Good, or compassionate actions, only arbitrate/judge and implement the consequences.
The question asked was about how the villains can use their polymporph powers for evil purposes. I doubt the players are going to try to do the same.
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you might read Polymorphamory which is pretty interesting and Good Forms not in Polymorphamory thread.
In my home game as a control I've always required a bit of the creature (1cc) that the caster will assume as an expendable material component (usually dried as we don't want stinky or putrefying components). This limits the crazy forms and lends some value to rare material components for higher level casting.
Thank you for that. If I play or have a player playing a polymorpher, that would definitely be a valuable resource. Kudos to you for taking the time to develop that.
Unfortunately, it doesn't really apply to the NPC villains whom I am trying to develop or their evil plot that I have already hinted at in my campaign.