Grappling and Pull (Ex) ability

[Yonman]

So what is the purpose of the Pull (Ex) ability if a grappler always pulls you to an open space?

Grapple:
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Though both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Pull:
A creature with this ability can choose to make a free combat maneuver check with a successful attack. If successful, this check pulls a creature closer. The distance pulled is set by this ability. The type of attack that causes the pull and the distance pulled are included in the creature’s description. This ability only works on creatures of a size equal to or smaller than the pulling creature. Creatures pulled in this way do not provoke attacks of opportunity and stop if the pull would move them into a solid object or creature.

So, what is the point of this ability?

[VoodistMonk]

Suspense...

Grapple it's pretty much over immediately. But with Pull, round by round you are dragged closer to the gaping maw.

[Name Violation]

Quite a few people don't realize the part about grapple that moves the 2 grapplers adjacent

[DeathlessOne]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Suspense...

Grapple it's pretty much over immediately. But with Pull, round by round you are dragged closer to the gaping maw.

Pretty much this. Some natural weapons don't have reach AND grab. And you want to pull the creatures closer to the natural weapon that does have grab AND swallow whole.

[WagnerSika]

If the creature fails the grab attempt it can still attempt to pull the victim slowly closer.

[yonman17]

That makes sense, so basically the pull ability isn’t necessarily tied to grapple checks.

[Sysryke]

You all seem to have hit a point of clarity, but now I'm confused. I'm one of those who hadn't caught the whole a successful grapple moves them adjacent thing. If there's no open adjacent space, the quoted text above says the grapple fails. So, if a successful grapple must end with the involved parties being adjacent, and a pull can only be performed on a successfully grappled creature (which should already be adjacent), doesn't this make a pull either impossible or pointless? The classic example I'm thinking of is the giant toad with the 15 to 20' tongue. Outside of special case monster abilities, is pulling even RAW possible or necessary? What am I missing, misreading, or misunderstanding?

[DeathlessOne]

Sysryke wrote:

... and a pull can only be performed on a successfully grappled creature ...

Wait, what? Pull and Grapple are two separate combat maneuvers. Are you thinking of Reposition, instead?

As for the question I THINK you are asking, yes. Freedom of Movement, to be precise. That spell stops grapple flat out, but not Pull.

[Sysryke]

Thanks. That's what I was missing. The quoted rules text made it seem as though a pull required a grapple first. Forgot they are partially exclusive or separate maneuvers. Now my question/confusion would be:

1. A pull still needs some kind of grab correct? I'm guessing this is settled by those niggling terminology details. A grab is distinct from a grapple the same way feats are different from features.

2. Since the grapple text still notes and implies that a pull maneuver is one of the many action options you can incorporate into a successfully maintained grapple, and the grapple makes the creature grappled adjacent, why would you ever need to use that option? How would it work since you and the grappled creature are already adjacent?

Clearly I'm still missing something.

[DeathlessOne]

1) A Pull needs some kind of CONTACT, not a kind of grab, though that can be used too. In the example of the giant frog, their tongues could just be sticky and that brief contact and surface tension is enough to pull something closer to them. How close depends on how high they roll.

2) You can Reposition someone in a grapple, or while not in a grapple. It is its own maneuver that can be used within a grapple. You do not need to use Pull and Grapple at the same time. One is clearly superior to the other in specific instances. Is there a source where you are getting both that is confusing you?

I think you are confusing terminology, is all. These are the combat maneuvers you can do in battle: Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Disarm, Drag, Grapple, Overrun, Reposition, Steal, Sunder and Trip. Anything outside that list is a special ability. Pull is one of those special abilities, as is Grab.

[Sysryke]

Not blaming the OP, and I don't know how to bold another persons quote. In the original post, the quoted rules about grappling and Pull looked like they were linked. The last sentence or two in the grapple paragraph alludes to several actions you can take as part of a grapple but then doesn't list those actions. The next paragraph details the rules for a pull. I thought pull was one of the maneuver options under a grapple, and since the only one relavent to the thread, the OP had skipped the rest of the list to save space. I get now that these are utterly separate categories of actions/abilities that may occasionally interact or intersect. Thank you for the clarifications.

[DeathlessOne]

You are quite welcome. Glad I could help.