Hello all! I'm starting put some thoughts together on a homebrew campaign. Right now I'm playing in an Iron Gods campaign, so it's still 6-8 months minimum before I run a game, but I wanted to do a bit of work on it ahead of time.
I'm planning on running Pathfinder 1E, but I'm mostly looking for story advice, so I may post this in the 2E forum as well. I don't know the geography and history of Golarion as well as I probably should, so that's where I'm asking for the most help. But any and all aspects of the campaign are open to suggestions, so have it! Here's what I have so far.
I'm calling it the "Orc-pocalypse". The party starts out in the regular, normal world of Golarion, in a remote village somewhere in the middle of nowhere. A non-descript village of a few hundred people, probably a truck stop on the way to some nearby mines, logging camps, etc. The party will probably start out doing some small errands for some people around town, to get familiar with the village and its inhabitants. The story starts for real when a stranger emerges from the woods and asks the PCs, specifically, to help clear out a temple (Gozreh maybe?) that has been overrun by goblins.
The party goes to investigate this temple out in the wilderness and finds a small fort that is indeed overrun by goblins. They fight their way through and liberate it, and find that it's built around a giant tree, which is apparently the "altar" of the temple. Approaching the tree, it opens up to reveal a small cavern underneath.
The party goes down and finds a small room with a fountain. A statue, with a small jug of water, infinitely pouring crystal clear water into the basin below. Overcome with a feeling of peace and serenity, the party drifts off to sleep.
They wake up and find that the statue has changed its pose, and the water jug is now in their possession, functioning like a decanter of endless water. They wander outside, slowly discovering that months have passed. The fort is overgrown, the woods deepened. As they return to the village, they find it overrun by orcs! They must then work to defeat the orcs and free the village.
Over time, they discover that the entire continent has been conquered by orcs, giants, ogres, goblins, etc. They steadily increase their scope, starting with the small village and working their way up to larger and larger conquests. But how did this happen?
Eventually they discover that the water is the key to all of it. An orc shaman has cursed the source of all water, at the highest mountaintop in the land. The orcs are immune to it, but humans, elves, dwarves are all weakened by it. This weakness causes their weapons to break and their bodies to falter, allowing the orcs to easily conquer them. The PCs must eventually climb to the top of this mountain, defeat the shaman, and use the decanter to cleanse the source.
So... thoughts on this? I'm debating whether this should be the end of the campaign, or a midpoint. Climbing a mountain is not easy at level 9 or 10, but by 15 or 16 it's pretty trivial. Perhaps after cleansing the water, they still need to return and defeat the leader, and with it the army?
As I said, any and all aspects of this are open to debate. I don't know the geography that well, so suggestions for locations would be great. Perhaps some good milestone towns and cities to liberate as well? Some good groups to ally with along the way?
Well, it's not very good, but it's not very bad... No. It is bad. I'm sorry, but that's just what it is. Here are my thoughts on a few points.
1. Temples tend to be in populated areas, not in the wilderness. Monestaries can be secluded though.
2. By making the PCs fall asleep like that you're taking away player agency in a way that should never ever happen. Don't do it. Even if you're going to pretend to let them roll a will save against it, don't. There's always that one player who rolls a natural 20 and that character that is immune to magic sleep effects, because elf or half-elf. The months passing while they are asleep makes it worse.
3. Your players are going to sell the decanter of endless water at the first possible moment, because of Murphy's Law. Or maybe it's just because the water seems poisoned and this village really needs water.
4. What is the motivation for the orcs and their allies? Why are they doing this? What brings them together, especially when they could just kill each other? This may seem controversial, but I like to have some kind of story in between my murderhoboeing. I don't really care for saturday morning cartoon villains with no motive other than "because I'm evil". I'm not sure if that makes sense to you.
Maybe I should explain it like this: Every war has had some kind of justification. Yours doesn't. What's worse is that your players aren't there to witness to it, because they were sleeping the entire time. They don't get to hear how archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. You're skipping over the entire story.
At least a couple APs start with the PCs auto-losing, so the loss of player agency isn't terrible if you just do it once per campaign. Sleep isn't your only option though. You could instead have time flow differently in the cave. Make it unreliable though, to prevent abuse. So, this first time the party gets your desired timeskip. If they try it again, maybe no time passes or only a few hours.
Maybe instead of stumbling upon the fountain, the PCs are actually looking for it. Like, there's a draught or maybe the local river has completely dried up. Or maybe an old man is looking for a fountain of youth. Maybe the main villain has even tricked the PCs into fetching the water for him because he can't get in himself. Maybe he's too afraid of getting himself stuck in time for centuries so he's playing it safe by sending the PCs.
Maybe instead of stumbling upon the fountain, the PCs are actually looking for it. Like, there's a draught or maybe the local river has completely dried up. Or maybe an old man is looking for a fountain of youth. Maybe the main villain has even tricked the PCs into fetching the water for him because he can't get in himself. Maybe he's too afraid of getting himself stuck in time for centuries so he's playing it safe by sending the PCs.
You could just place the decanter of endless water somewhere else in the campaign instead. This way, you'd have a whole extra quest for the campaign after the heroes find out that the water is poisoned.
Oh right, by level 9 the players could have access to spells like Teleport and Overland Flight. Climbing a mountain should be a peace of cake.
Well, it's not very good, but it's not very bad... No. It is bad. I'm sorry, but that's just what it is. Here are my thoughts on a few points.
1. Temples tend to be in populated areas, not in the wilderness. Monestaries can be secluded though.
2. By making the PCs fall asleep like that you're taking away player agency in a way that should never ever happen. Don't do it. Even if you're going to pretend to let them roll a will save against it, don't. There's always that one player who rolls a natural 20 and that character that is immune to magic sleep effects, because elf or half-elf. The months passing while they are asleep makes it worse.
3. Your players are going to sell the decanter of endless water at the first possible moment, because of Murphy's Law. Or maybe it's just because the water seems poisoned and this village really needs water.
4. What is the motivation for the orcs and their allies? Why are they doing this? What brings them together, especially when they could just kill each other? This may seem controversial, but I like to have some kind of story in between my murderhoboeing. I don't really care for saturday morning cartoon villains with no motive other than "because I'm evil". I'm not sure if that makes sense to you.
Maybe I should explain it like this: Every war has had some kind of justification. Yours doesn't. What's worse is that your players aren't there to witness to it, because they were sleeping the entire time. They don't get to hear how archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated. You're skipping over the entire story.
So... Lot's of room for improvement?
I agree with all of this, except #1. Temples tend to be in a place that was well populated once upon a time, but that doesn't mean they have to be well populated now. A ruined temple out in the middle of nowhere, when that middle of nowhere used to be a heavily populated area is perfectly acceptable.
Other than that I full agree with this and the first game would probably have me not really interested in playing further.
D R Snoozenrocken - would you want this campaign start to happen to you? Would you be ok with your GM saying: Ok, you go inside the weird tree cave at the heart of the temple. You see a jug... water and peace... you fall asleep. 5 years have passed..." or whatever?
Think about the Iron Gods AP you're playing now. What if the robot/construct/golem things just suddenly turned on you and your character heard a sonorous hum. Without any saving throw, initiative or anything, your entire party falls asleep. When you awaken, you emerge from the chamber you're in to find out that orcs have taken over the entire world. Is that fun?
What's more... what about the rest of Golarion? Like, I know this isn't the world setting of Forgotten Realms where whole cities float through the sky, but there ARE other powerful NPCs in Golarion. Is your campaign premise suggesting that EVERY other NPC with PC levels failed to take any meaningful action against a single lone orc shaman and his world-influencing water powers?
For that matter, what curse affects EVERY source of water in the entire world? Like, that feels like a Wish spell to me. And even then, it's not as if every water in the world is interconnected. The shaman would have to put their curse into the sky, where it influences the weather and water cycle permanently.
If you want an "orc-pocalypse," just have one. Put the PCs right in the middle of it. Here's an outline:
Adventure one - get rid of giant rats on old man Smither's farm. PCs go out and kill some dire rats on a farm. Here they encounter some kobolds who are training the rats in order to be guards for a new lair.
Adventure two - kobold raid: the PCs got rid of the initial invasion force of kobolds but now a larger force from the wilds have come to fully siege the village. They look haggard, worse for wear; there should be an abundance of clues or info from captured kobolds that they've been out in the land surviving for a while
Adventure three - find the abandoned temple of Tree-Altar. The only way to put an end to the kobold menace is to go to the temple and beg a boon from the demigod trapped inside the tree. PCs have to fight through the wilds, where they encounter kobolds sure, but also... some orcs?
Adventure four - release the demigod of Tree-Altar. Once they get here and secure the temple from monsters, the force inside the tree-altar says they need to free it by capturing a tree limb stolen by the kobold's leader. PCs have to venture deep into the wilds to find this kobold; along the way more orcs are faced. Once again, the kobolds' situation should clue the players in that they've been FORCED to live out of doors, away from their old lair under the mountain for some reason.
Adventure five - the orc-pocalypse has begun. So the PCs free the demigod in the tree-altar only... SURPRISE! It was actually an orcish war-spirit. The thing had awoken and communicated with an orc shaman to get it to come here and free it. However the kobolds had a lair that the main bulk of the orc force had to get through first. The kobolds, knowing somehow that the tree-altar was important to their enemies, broke the tree-altar and were trying to establish a new lair hidden away from their enemies.
Now that the orc war spirit has been released and the kobolds are no longer in their way, the empowered shaman (who now has like, level 12 Shaman powers thanks to the freed spirit) are going to be impressing other orc tribes into their Imperial regime and marching across the land to conquer. The rest of the campaign features the PCs starting up a burgeoning resistance movement with the eventual, high goals of the campaign being to stop the "orc-pocalypse" while finding a way to separate the shaman from the war spirit and re-imprison the evil force in the tree-altar once more.
This is a little blunt and linear; personally I don't prefer to run such straight-on games, but this is one way the plot could work. There's no forced moment of character's lack of agency; rather they were tricked by a force that was lying to them (which happens in fantasy medium all the time). They also are around for the very beginning of the "orc-pocalypse" but even after a few adventures their power levels are just too darn low to really go straight at mount doom and confront the newly-empowered shaman.
With that option off the table though, the players are free to make any other decisions they'd like to combat the evil. The first few weeks will see ever increasing bands of orcs wandering around, but at first nothing too overwhelming, giving the PCs a chance to level up a bit to give them a fighting chance against the basic grunt soldiers of the orcish empire.
Over time however it should begin to dawn on the players, through clues you put out there, that the main orcs are going out through the world and getting other orcs, ogres, hill giants, magically enhanced/trained warcats and dire boars, and still other fearsome conscripts to fill out their ranks. A true force is building up. This is too big for 3-6 individual PCs to just fly over and destroy, until they're like, above level 10 or something.
This hands the decision making back to the players again. Flee and let other heroes of Golarion handle it? Seek legendary weapons to fight evil? Go back to the temple near their village and figure out what happened? Infiltrate the ranks of the orcs for an elaborate, multiple level take down from within? These are all options for the players to decide from.
This sounds like a pretty straight-up military campaign with large numbers of minis. The party represents a small resistance cell.
It also sounds like an environmental themed adventure. The Orcs are destroying the natural world and polluting the water, resulting in the sickening and depopulating of the PC races. So like the orcs, giants ang goblinoids are the United States, and the PCs are some kind of minority group.
The party might discover that the Orcish environmental policies are bad for the orcs, too, so one possible route to victory would be to convince them to save themselves.
The party might eco-terrorists led by the party Druid to create disasters for the orcs.
I'd ignore the warnings against the magical slumber, for several reasons
First, as the GM you have the license to start the game however you see fit. You're basically allowing them to play what would be the beginning narration of the game before actually starting the game, ala Fallout 4(speaking of which, this sounds a lot like a Pathfinder take on Fallout 3).
Second, deities, even minor ones, trapped in a decrepit temple have the ability to put mortals into pretty much state they want to. Should they foresee some great calamity that only the heroes can stop at some later time, then a long winter's nap is warranted and highly possible.
I kind of like the bones of your story, though I'd ditch Golarion and make my own world, to better tie in the elements of the story. Tie in the waters to a creation myth, to make a single source (for later purifying). Have the Orcs and other monsters be servants of some evil that has been locked in battle with the "Mother Water" since time began, which is why they poison the water and are also immune to its effects (or maybe they're not and the constant exposure to the tainted waters is what makes Orcs and other monsters). Carrying the last bit of "True Water" given to them at the ancient and forgotten temple/spring, they must then purify the waters they come across and defeat those who would try and stop them from eventually reaching the Mother Water and breaking the curse once and for all.
Yes. The OP is putting the PCs in a world overrun by armies of orcs, giants, and goblins who are winning by polluting the water. The players are to come out of the wilderness and champion the good, clean folk of the world.
It really looks like a campaign filled with political, environmental, and maybe racial subtext. It might be fun.
Yes. The OP is putting the PCs in a world overrun by armies of orcs, giants, and goblins who are winning by polluting the water. The players are to come out of the wilderness and champion the good, clean folk of the world.
It really looks like a campaign filled with political, environmental, and maybe racial subtext. It might be fun.
And if it happens that the OP never intended the campaign to go there, then good thing I'm warning them away.
The party starts out in the regular, normal world of Golarion, in a remote village somewhere in the middle of nowhere.... non-descript
Sure.
DrSnooze wrote:
a stranger emerges from the woods and asks the PCs, specifically, to help clear out a temple (Gozreh maybe?) that has been overrun by goblins.
Pretty standard stuff so far, but it sounds fun to play.
DrSnooze wrote:
the party drifts off to sleep.... months have passed.... the village, they find it overrun by orcs! They must then work to defeat the orcs and free the village.
Over time, they discover that the entire continent has been conquered by orcs, giants, ogres, goblins, etc. They steadily increase their scope, starting with the small village and working their way up to larger and larger conquests. But how did this happen?
the David wrote:
2. By making the PCs fall asleep like that you're taking away player agency in a way that should never ever happen. Don't do it.
The David has a point. The initial seeds of adventure give you an idea of the initial plot unfolding, and then next thing you know, your whole civilization comes to an end. Why? If you want to run post-apocalyptic campaign, why tease them with the normal one in the beginning? If this is a heroic fantasy campaign, shouldn't it be about revealing the orc shaman's plot to conquer the world by polluting the water, and the party tries to stop it?
How about this?
the David wrote:
The party will probably start out doing some small errands for some people around town, to get familiar with the village and its inhabitants.
The party hears that people are getting sick, and the well water is tainted.
DrSnooze wrote:
goblins... water jug is now in their possession, functioning like a decanter of endless water.... conquered by orcs, giants, ogres, goblins, etc. They steadily increase their scope, starting with the small village and working their way up to larger and larger conquests.
As it turns out, that poisoned well water is making everyone seriously ill, and the party's Decanter of Endless Water saves the village.
The party saved one village from one group of Goblins, but then they hear that lots of villages have been falling to Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Ogres, and other nasties all over the place? How is this happening?
DrSnooze wrote:
An orc shaman has cursed the source of all water, at the highest mountaintop in the land. The orcs are immune to it
Don't make them immune. The Orc Shaman has been manufacturing Decanters of Endless Water and equipping tribes of humanoids, polluting the water and warning his minions not to drink it. He's doing this as a precursor to each invasion.
Does this have to be about destroying the whole world? Your scenario seems interesting enough without making it apocalyptic. You've got pollution and imperial expansion, military conflicts, mysterious illnesses.
Is the orc shaman even capable of conquering the world? How? How many orcs are there? I mean you destroy someone's army in battle, fine, but you always take some losses. You run out of orcs sooner or later. You conquer their whole kingdom: awesome. Now every grunt in your army has a nice farm with pigs and mushrooms to eat and even some elf slaves. Even if that is an overstatement, new lands require new soldiers to patrol more land. There's an ebb and flow. There's a limit as to how big your empire can get. Sooner or later, you have too many client states in your empire, and at some point, the center seems weak, and all of a sudden, they rebel. That's what happened in Ghana and Mali. That's kind of what happened to Rome, and before that, that's why Rome beat Carthage, and that's kind of what happened to Assyrians. That's also why the Saxon invasion of England took generations: more like a migration than an invasion. That's what happened to the Vikings, pretty much: They spread out all over, then they just got absorbed into the local populations.
Is your Orc Shaman a more effective Imperial bureaucrat than Emperor Trajan? Is your Orc Shaman just a guy whose eyes are bigger than his stomach, and his campaign for power is destined to flame out.
Or is your Shaman actually acting in the service of some even more powerful being: a Lich, a Green Dragon, a colony of Illithids, a Demon Lord, someone who is supplying him with those endless Decanters of Endless Water? Are the ranks of their Orcish Armies being stiffened by animated corpses, legions from Hell, hideous abominations, armies of constructs? Will there come a time when that same mysterious benefactor that has been giving that Shaman one victory after another going to turn on them, making it so the Orcs will eventually come to the party for help?
Anyway, those are the ideas I'm thinking about when I think about your storyline.
I'd ignore the warnings against the magical slumber, for several reasons
First, as the GM you have the license to start the game however you see fit. You're basically allowing them to play what would be the beginning narration of the game before actually starting the game, ala Fallout 4(speaking of which, this sounds a lot like a Pathfinder take on Fallout 3).
Second, deities, even minor ones, trapped in a decrepit temple have the ability to put mortals into pretty much state they want to. Should they foresee some great calamity that only the heroes can stop at some later time, then a long winter's nap is warranted and highly possible.
I kind of like the bones of your story, though I'd ditch Golarion and make my own world, to better tie in the elements of the story. Tie in the waters to a creation myth, to make a single source (for later purifying). Have the Orcs and other monsters be servants of some evil that has been locked in battle with the "Mother Water" since time began, which is why they poison the water and are also immune to its effects (or maybe they're not and the constant exposure to the tainted waters is what makes Orcs and other monsters). Carrying the last bit of "True Water" given to them at the ancient and forgotten temple/spring, they must then purify the waters they come across and defeat those who would try and stop them from eventually reaching the Mother Water and breaking the curse once and for all.
This here is the core of what I'm going for. The part that I've outlined is just an intro of sorts, setting the table for the triumphant return of the heroes. The deity of choice knew what was coming and couldn't stop it, so he/she sheltered the PCs away so they could fix it after it happened.
I wanted to do some "pre-apocalypse" stuff so they can get to know people and have some ties to the world that was. Finding out what happened to people they knew, rescuing them, etc.
I was definitely going for some mythical "source of all water" thing atop the mountain. Of course with modern understanding of how things work, that doesn't make sense, but this is a fantasy setting. If there's a deity who helps crops grow, creates monsters, corrupts humans to do evil, then it's not really so crazy that there's a "source" of water somewhere. I'm also thinking about making the "decanter" dispense cure potions in some limited capacity, to get rid of the "wand of cure light" concept (which I dislike) and also gives it some intrinsic value so they don't just discard it.
Maybe it's not an Orc shaman who's behind it all, maybe it's some sort of wizard or something. Doesn't really matter, it could be anything.
I'd ignore the warnings against the magical slumber, for several reasons
First, as the GM you have the license to start the game however you see fit. You're basically allowing them to play what would be the beginning narration of the game before actually starting the game, ala Fallout 4(speaking of which, this sounds a lot like a Pathfinder take on Fallout 3).
Second, deities, even minor ones, trapped in a decrepit temple have the ability to put mortals into pretty much state they want to. Should they foresee some great calamity that only the heroes can stop at some later time, then a long winter's nap is warranted and highly possible.
I kind of like the bones of your story, though I'd ditch Golarion and make my own world, to better tie in the elements of the story. Tie in the waters to a creation myth, to make a single source (for later purifying). Have the Orcs and other monsters be servants of some evil that has been locked in battle with the "Mother Water" since time began, which is why they poison the water and are also immune to its effects (or maybe they're not and the constant exposure to the tainted waters is what makes Orcs and other monsters). Carrying the last bit of "True Water" given to them at the ancient and forgotten temple/spring, they must then purify the waters they come across and defeat those who would try and stop them from eventually reaching the Mother Water and breaking the curse once and for all.
This here is the core of what I'm going for. The part that I've outlined is just an intro of sorts, setting the table for the triumphant return of the heroes. The deity of choice knew what was coming and couldn't stop it, so he/she sheltered the PCs away so they could fix it after it happened.
I wanted to do some "pre-apocalypse" stuff so they can get to know people and have some ties to the world that was. Finding out what happened to people they knew, rescuing them, etc.
I was definitely going for some mythical "source of all water" thing...
I like the idea of the decanter handing out more than just water. maybe let it grow in power along with the party. Could handle it like a Staff of Healing/Life allowing it to recharge in purified/blessed water or just regain charges per day.
I'm only speaking anecdotally, from personal experience, but some players might not gel with the whole "this is just the introduction" part of the game taking away their agency.
Spoiler:
I was a player in a 3.5 D&D game. Said game's "introduction," to reveal that the paladins ruling our kingdom were actually corrupt and working with the bad guys, was the DM having us chase some "man in black" that was collecting corpses.
See, our job was we were soldiers who were supposed to ride to the front and collect bodies to bring them back to the capitol for proper burial. Every site we visited we'd "just missed" a mysterious man in black driving a cart which was described as "literally FULL of corpses!"
So rather than visit the last fort before turning back to the capital we tried everything to catch up to the "ox-drawn cart" full of bodies. We commandeered riding steeds, we used our skills to discover a shortcut, navigated a dangerous gorge, and defeated a couple of ambushes. Coming back out onto the main road, at a point that should've put us ahead of the slow cart, said vehicle was a mile ahead of us.
Now, at this point things get silly.
The capitol is a city in 2 parts; one built upon the ground, the smaller part for the elite and paladin rulers floating in the sky. Said ground level entrance is roughly 2 miles away, on the horizon. The road between us and the cart, and then the gates beyond is a long, flat paved road in the middle of an empty plain, flanked by fields and meadows.
We spur our horses, meaning to easily overtake the plodding cart. Suddenly the DM reveals to us that there were boulders right on the edge of the road that we didn't see before. A quick Detect Magic from my cleric suggests that these are real and didn't just spring into existence.
So to recap: we look out across a flat, featureless plain and roadway and the ONLY things we see of note are a cart approximately a mile away and the city gates approximately 2 miles away. We ride 10' and suddenly 60' in front of us is a large, obvious outcrop of stone right on the edge of the road.
We get ambushed from behind the rocks. We rolled really well however and defeat our enemies in 3 rounds. In that time... approximately 20-30 seconds, the cart has traveled a full mile, the driver has delivered some kind of special paperwork at the gate, the guards have verified said paperwork, and the cart and driver are being escorted to a waiting airship to take them up to the high city.
In no more than 30 seconds.
This was the point at which I threw up my hands. We eventually got to the city, followed the cart up to the high city, and got ambushed by some low level paladin grunts. At this point us players decided to abandon the campaign as it was obvious that the DM just wanted to TELL us what was going on, not have us participate in it.
Our DM seemed hurt/insulted. He explained that this was just the "opening credits" of the game and that the REST of the campaign would involve us dealing with the corruption of the evil paladins working with a bunch of necromancers but we didn't want to keep playing.
As you can see from the spoiler, our DM was essentially telling us that our decisions didn't matter; he had an idea of what our characters needed to know/experience so we were going to do things his way, regardless or our own decisions. He also had the idea that this was just the intro to his campaign and AFTER that we'd get our agency back.
First off, if your DM is willing to subvert your agency in a major way once, in order to ensure you're going to see things their way, who's to say they won't do it again? Secondly, why purposely create a situation where you're invalidating the players' decisions in the first place? If you want to suddenly fast-forward to the orc-pocalypse, why not just DO that instead of tearing away the fictional reality your players have already begun building/interacting with?
Now, the OP suggests that the game starts out fairly typically and then the PCs get knocked out for months and, in that time, orcs have invaded everywhere. Also, all the water is bad. This isn't exactly the same as my spoiler but it still begs the questions of why bother starting BEFORE the start of the actual conflict the PCs are going to be dealing with, if there was no way to prevent that confilict, and also why bother having the players make decisions in the run up to getting knocked out that will have virtually no impact on the larger game, long term?
I wanted to do some "pre-apocalypse" stuff so they can get to know people and have some ties to the world that was. Finding out what happened to people they knew, rescuing them, etc.
I have 2 counter-proposals. The first one you heard: instead of springing an apocalypse on them after a couple of adventures, present them with an apocalptic scenario that they can fight against, even if they are outmatched.
The second one is if what you really want to run is a post apocalyptic campaign with a once-glorious world that the players can feel nostalgic about, why not just start with the Iron Gods Campaign your group is currently playing in? You set your campaign in the far-flung future where the campaign world you were in was destroyed in and apocalypse or overrun by orcs or whatever. Since your campaign will reference the old one, they will already have ties to it even if their characters don't. As the party explores your bleak, new world, they can slowly piece together that your world was once the world they were just gaming in. You can visit the ruins of the castle where the guy that use to send you on quests use to live. You can have them run into an NPC Barbarian who uses Gary's character's Falchion, or something. That way you can run the campaign you want to run, and give them nostalgia for their old world without denying them the agency of trying to save it.
I've learned one again from this thread that there is a huge variance in how people believe a game should be run, what is ok. What Is not okay.
As a player, if you told me some low level diety put my level 3 character into a magical slumber, who am I to argue? I mean why wouldn't he just smite us right there if he wanted us out of the way? But I don't see a problem. I'm some better than average pleb and whatever demi god it was is likely going to have an easy time having it's way with me.
As a player, I would balk at mark Hoover's game, as it seems he did as well. Firstly, the fact the paladins were actually evil, because that's kinda easy to notice to anyone that has met a paladin.
But what gets me isn't the "your choices don't matter" it's more of percieved incompetence on the GM and an inability to realize he buggered it by throwing all sorts of off the wall things at the group. Don't give the pretense of choice. Then keep throwing more random rock outcroppings, and 60mph ox drawn wagons to invalidate those actions.
Without dipping a toe too far into real world issues, the crux of the dilemma here seems to be the very human conflict between the concepts of free will (player agency) and predestination or fate (plot points and GM fiat). Your terms may very, but I hope my meaning is clear.
I think many of us have been burned before by rail roaded games. In my groups we call it the purple mist problem. Despite the warning and potential pitfalls though, I do like the sound of your game. If you do want to play what is basically your story's prologue, then consider creating different paths or options that still get you to this "fated" pivitol event.
One path you've already laid out, but maybe there's a way for the characters to get fore-warning of the event. Maybe they can't make it to the cave and must shelter elsewhere. Maybe the magic decanter is a post apocalypse quest item. Maybe the party gets captured by an Orc tribe and are held as prisoners. All roads lead to Rome, but the players choices affect where they are, and what resources, information, or contacts they have when the orc uprising has passed.
Balance between choice and narrative is what you need. Again though, I think you have a good thing hete. Role play games are obviously different from video games, but some elements can positively cross over. Your set up makes me think of Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. I love the game, but every time I replay, I always rebel at going to the temple of time to get the master sword, because I know what's going to happen. One of the most celebrated games of the franchise, but that part is always a bit frustrating.
However you handle this, make sure that after the event, you allow for numerous paths or solutions to the conflict, including the possibility of your characters just making the best of it in a new and broken world. However it plays out, enjoy the story and have fun.
As a player, if you told me some low level diety put my level 3 character into a magical slumber, who am I to argue? I mean why wouldn't he just smite us right there if he wanted us out of the way? But I don't see a problem. I'm some better than average pleb and whatever demi god it was is likely going to have an easy time having it's way with me.
Everyone has their own way to play. You find this style acceptable and that is good. Here is why I find it unacceptable.
If a GM can just auto-smite my character, they're essentially TELLING me what happens next. In other words, they're forcing the story to go in one specific direction that they're in charge of. Only, if I just wanted to GM to tell me a bedtime story I'd have put on some PJ's and gotten some warm milk.
I'm not at the table to be told a story, I'm there to act IN the story.
As a player, if you told me some low level diety put my level 3 character into a magical slumber, who am I to argue? I mean why wouldn't he just smite us right there if he wanted us out of the way? But I don't see a problem. I'm some better than average pleb and whatever demi god it was is likely going to have an easy time having it's way with me.
Everyone has their own way to play. You find this style acceptable and that is good. Here is why I find it unacceptable.
If a GM can just auto-smite my character, they're essentially TELLING me what happens next. In other words, they're forcing the story to go in one specific direction that they're in charge of. Only, if I just wanted to GM to tell me a bedtime story I'd have put on some PJ's and gotten some warm milk.
I'm not at the table to be told a story, I'm there to act IN the story.
I respect your views and like many of your posts, but do you think you might be letting past bad GMing experiences color your perspective a bit?
I don't think the OP intends to be all that dictatory, just using a major world event as a pivitol turning point for the story. To some degree or another aren't events like this part of what shapes nearly every pre-gened AP?
I understand there are degrees of scale, but I don't think this particular case is that egregious. We know of the fated event because the OP has shared it with us, the players likely won't see this coming. This differs from the truly horrid ox cart and random rocks events in that the OP won't be breaking any rules or story continuity.
If the characters know about the event to come, and no matter there actions, they are forced along the same path with no details changed, that's unacceptable. If instead though this is a brewing confluence of events, spurred by shadowy forces in the world of which the characters have no prior knowledge, how does that differ (except in scale) from a carefully concealed trap, a legitimately scripted ambush, a surprise invasion, or a freak natural accident?
Isn't every game supposed to be a group story telling ? There is a give and take. But the GM does run everything that is not the characters. This has to mean that sometimes things are out of our control. Our agency as players comes in part from how we deal with those uncontrollable things.
Again, you have my great respect. Just some thoughts.
As a player, if you told me some low level diety put my level 3 character into a magical slumber, who am I to argue? I mean why wouldn't he just smite us right there if he wanted us out of the way? But I don't see a problem. I'm some better than average pleb and whatever demi god it was is likely going to have an easy time having it's way with me.
Everyone has their own way to play. You find this style acceptable and that is good. Here is why I find it unacceptable.
If a GM can just auto-smite my character, they're essentially TELLING me what happens next. In other words, they're forcing the story to go in one specific direction that they're in charge of. Only, if I just wanted to GM to tell me a bedtime story I'd have put on some PJ's and gotten some warm milk.
I'm not at the table to be told a story, I'm there to act IN the story.
I understand where you are coming from, but at a certain point there needs to be a suspension of disbelief narrative. Fact- There are some things players can't do. Yet.
You can't retaliate against a corrupt king exiling you/killing your family/whatever third thing, because doing so would irrevocably have you end up in jail. (at a lower level) Because while I would certainly LET you fight it out, you likely wouldn't get past the palace guards.
You can't fight a god, at least not without being super high level, having several mcguffins specifically designed for it, and possible the backing of ANOTHER god. Things you CAN do in games, however if you are Nick the necromancer with your 10 skellibros and a god comes along to smite you, not much you can do. Does it suck? Maybe. Should it happen? No. But, say that god comes along and slaps a mythic level geas on you, thats a bit more reasonable. It lets you build up to fighting back. Gives you a goal.
Remember, the GM wants to have fun too. And a large part of the fun as a GM is getting to share a story with your friends/players. That story needs player choice yes. But it is also his to tell. I think of it like this- The GM just said X happens, does it better the story? Can it make the story better? Does it really detriment mine or others characters?
Usually, if the answers are, yes, yes, no. Its fine.
I respect your views and like many of your posts, but do you think you might be letting past bad GMing experiences color your perspective a bit?
Yeah, I probably am. Sorry everyone. It's hard for me to shake off those bad experiences I guess.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that I strongly feel that its important not to make the players feel helpless. Not the characters mind you, but the players.
In the situations rorek55 suggests, the characters are WAY outmatched and there would be no chance of success attacking a god or a king flanked by a castle full of guards. However, the PLAYERS still have that option, however fleeting. They could also attempt to flee, or negotiate, or do SOMETHING.
The situation the OP describes would be instantaneous and irreversible. It's the difference between saying "You wake up and the sun is unseasonably warm today. What do you do?" and "You wake up and the sun is unseasonably warm today. You all suffer heatstroke and pass back out again. You wake up months later..."
Do you see the difference? The PCs can't fight the sun, nor can they likely stop the radiant heat all over the globe, but they can do SOMETHING to mitigate the negative effects, and while doing so they risk getting heatstroke. The PLAYERS still have choices, they're not helpless.
I'm sorry if I'm getting annoying here folks. Feel free to buzz off, seriously! These are only my opinions and aren't meant as an absolute guide for everyone to follow; your fun is YOUR fun.
nah, it's all good. But the difference is that the magical slumber isn't an encounter, or even a large part of the story. It's just the vehicle to get them into the actual game they want to run; Orc-pocalypse.
It's no more taking agency away from a player than starting the game off in an inn...though I'm sure that will soon be argued over.
as to the topic. Since the OP wants to showcase the world beforehand, you could take a dip into some time travel and have the deity offer to transport them back should they cleanse the main waters. Time is like a river and so on and such.
Now that I've put myself into a diabetic coma, in all seriousness, I think many of us are on or near the same page, whichever side of the concern fence we land on. The OP has a good thing going. If he chooses to utilize some of our ideas to flesh things out, that might make it better, but fun should and will be had by all.
Purely personally, I loathe time travel, but it does present some other good options for things to season this game.
Now that I've put myself into a diabetic coma, in all seriousness, I think many of us are on or near the same page, whichever side of the concern fence we land on. The OP has a good thing going. If he chooses to utilize some of our ideas to flesh things out, that might make it better, but fun should and will be had by all.
Purely personally, I loathe time travel, but it does present some other good options for things to season this game.
in this case, I'd only use it as an offered reward.
