So what class features would like as a replacement for minor(4th) casting? Of course the answer could vary for each class:)
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6th level casting, obviously.
6th level casting, obviously.
Yes, this. Higher level play, even middle level play, would be a lot more balanced for Rangers and the like if they had more relevant spell ability.
I actually think Paladins/Rangers/Bloodragers have pretty good spell-lists for what they're tying to accomplish. You're not going to be a blaster or a god-wizard, but you can buff yourself to heck and wreck face, and you can throw in some emergency-save spells for when you just need a little more to survive.
I am less familiar with the Ranger's spell list than the other 2, so it may not hold up quite as well, but from what I've seen they do fine.
As to the OP's question, this would absolutely vary based on class.
There are a few archetypes that already do this for these classes, their value varies pretty widely delending what they give back bit they're usually considered weaker archetypes simply because of the versatility of spells.
Paladins get a bunch of supernatural abilities, so getting more of them might be enough to replace casting. More Mercies, more LoH, more Smiting and maybe a few bonus feats would probably ne enough to tempt a lot of players.
For a Bloodrager maybe just getting the Primalist's Rage powers AND getting the Bloodline powers would be enough (rather than having to choose like the primalist currently does). It'd actually make the Barbarian obsolete, but I can see people coming up with some crazy things here.
Again I'm less familiar with the Ranger, but maybe a full-level animal companion and Wild-Shape like the druid? I can see that being pretty fun.
As prepared divine casters rangers and paladins spells are pretty good. Sure there a lot of very situational spells, but most of those are extremely useful in the situation they are designed for. In order for it to be worth it the replacement would need to be equally versatile. Both classes are have a decent amount of class abilities they cover a wide range of needs. This makes it difficult to come up with something that is not going to duplicate what they already have. About the only thing I could think of would be something like a inquisitors judgement, or a bards performances.
For a bloodrager that is simple play a barbarian.
Poor 4th level casters... if anything you should just combine every 4th level spell list into one, and give all 4th level casters access to that list. Throw a dog a bone.
If one gets cantrips/orisions, they all do. Give them all the best spells known/per day allotment of any 4th level caster class, too. Full caster level, blah blah blah.
It's not going to hurt anyone giving Bloodrager/Medium spells to a Ranger, or any other way that might work out.
As prepared divine casters rangers and paladins spells are pretty good. Sure there a lot of very situational spells, but most of those are extremely useful in the situation they are designed for. In order for it to be worth it the replacement would need to be equally versatile. Both classes are have a decent amount of class abilities they cover a wide range of needs. This makes it difficult to come up with something that is not going to duplicate what they already have. About the only thing I could think of would be something like a inquisitors judgement, or a bards performances.
For a bloodrager that is simple play a barbarian.
The spell list for Rangers, Bloodragers and Paladins isn't the issue. Caster level, number of spells and late access is. At low levels, this is not a problem. At higher levels, 6th level casting would do a lot to keep those classes relevant.
And I understand that this would cut into the Hunter class desirability, and the Warpriest to a lesser extent. Still thinking that over.
Would you take 4-6 bonus feats over 4th level casting?
While I think all classes that have casting should have cantrips, but that is a subject for another thread;)
Would you take uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge over casing for a ranger? or would you want more then that?
How about class features like channel, kinetic blast, kinetic defense, lay on hands/mercies, evasion(+improved version), etc.?
It's Dungeons and Dragons... I think EVERY class should have 4th level spells, at least.
Uncanny Dodge + Improved, Evasion + Improved would not be enough to replace even 4th level casting. I think that they should already be baked into both Ranger and Slayer. Nature-based healing of some sort would be a nice addition.
@VoodistMonk and Ghostwheel: Have either of you actually played a 4th level caster?
The way you're talking about it is very much "Well my big brother is a 6th level caster and he could totally beat up your big brother who's a 4th level caster!"
You can't play 4th level caster like a wizard, or even like a Warpriest. You can use your spells to give your already-combat-capable character some versatility or some power-spikes for difficult encounters, and their spells are fantastic for that.
Maybe if you'd like to start a new thread about increasing casting powers you could do that instead.
@MrCharisma: Yes, I have played Rangers and Paladins in the past. Both can be a lot of fun. Never tried to play one like a wizard though. I don't think it would work out very well.
As something of a compromise position: Perhaps staying with the 4th level casting, but with access at 1st level, full caster level, orisons/cantrips and maybe more slots.
Still thinking about this.
Ok I'm glad you enjoy them, but that's still not what this thread is about. It's not about balancing their spell-casting, it's about replacing their spell-casting entirely.
What do you think WOULD be worth that?
(I will concede that I think the reduced caster level is a bit stupid. Apparently Paizo agrees since the Bloodrager and Medium both got full caster level, so I guess it's just legacy that kept them reduced for the Paladin and ranger.)
For Paladin: Allow the Paladin to have both the weapon and mount divine bond. Give them an ability to remove negative conditions and stat drain/damage by expending their Lay on Hands like a dispel.
Just FYI Paladins can already do a lot of this.
At 9th level, a paladin adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.
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Cursed: The paladin’s lay on hands ability also acts as remove curse, using the paladin’s level as the caster level.
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Restorative: The target heals 1d4 points of ability damage from a single ability score of the paladin’s choosing. The paladin must have the enfeebled mercy before selecting this mercy. Source PPC:HH
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At 12th level, a paladin adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.
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Ensorcelled: The paladin’s lay on hands also acts as dispel magic, using the paladin’s level as her caster level (maximum 20). Source PPC:HH
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(Although I am surprised there's no way to restore Ability Drain in there, I'd have thought that would be a good fit for a high level Paladin.)
Paladins can cast restoration (which removes ability drain) once they can cast 4th level spells. A paladin without spells is going to have holes in their repertoire of healing abilities.
A bunch of feats seems like for a paladin it leaves holes like that which break verisimilitude. Maybe some extra or expanded mercies in addition to some feats?
Ranger spells are more about utility. The main problem is that by the time you get any spells at all you're likely used to solving problems without magic at all. Orisons might help, but removing ranger spellcasting is another natural solution. I think the slayer basically does that well enough though.
For a bloodrager the ability to do a couple of flashy stunts seems to me like it shouldn't be traded away. Selling off every extraneous ability for more dakka is poor design.
Done thinking about this.
For all of the relative weakness of the 4th level casting, I don't think that there is a straightforward and balanced way to replace it. Daily spells are too versatile of a feature to be eliminated without a lot of "dakka", as avr put it.
I would be fine with a lot of things over 4th level casting for Paladins and Rangers, Bloodragers I am fine with having some casting. Personally Mediums should get 6th level casting.
I would like 4th casing better if...
-You got it at level 1.
-You got more spells per day(especially 1st and 2nd level)
-You got cantrips/orisions/knacks.
-Your caster level was equal to your class level.
The Ranger is the class more then any that I would gladly trade the casting for other stuff.
As to the OP's question, this would absolutely vary based on class.
Yeah, that would be my answer too. Antipaladin has the insinuator archetype which does well by replacing spells with bonus combat feats - because it fits the playstyle. Well, it also fits my playstyle, so I might be biased...
It would have been nice to see more archetypes without 4th-level casting, or make it just a choice in the base class to begin with. As a hunter's bond / divine bond option (moved to 4th level), for example.
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Spheres of Might(3pp) has options for replacing spellcasting for all the 4 level casters...
They include:
-Increasing skill points(Alchemy, Warleader, Gladiator, Scout, Fencing)
-More consistent offense(Not stronger, but less tied to the Full Attack mantra)
-Better mobility
-Defensive options
-Crowd Control options(I.E Maneuvers or other debuffs)
-Lower gear dependability