Alchemist > Rogue because two good saves, Alchemy/Mutagen/Infusions... Vivisectionist stacks with Beastmorph if you want to do the whole Ratfolk Scurrying Swarmer business.
At 20 they each look like this...
Scout-Underground Chemist Rogue
BAB: +15
Base saves: +6/+12/+6
Sneak Attack: 10D6
Bombs: 10D6
Vivisectionist Alchemist
BAB: +15
Base saves: +12/+12/+6
Extracts: 6th level
Sneak Attack: 10D6
Rogue 4/Alchemist 16
BAB: +15
Base saves: +11/+14/+6
Sneak Attack: 10D6
Extracts: 6th level
Bombs: 10D6
not sure how that's any better than just taking rogue levels for SA
haremlord gave the answer:
If you are a class that gets sneak attack, but at a slower progression [than rogue], consider a 1 level dip in vivisectionist.
For example, say you have 6 levels in a class, that has sneak attack but that class only gives sneak attack dice equivalent to that of a rogue half your class levels.
If you now level up and take 1 level of rogue, then your sneak attack would be at (6/2)+1 = 4 rogue-level-equivalents.
If you instead take 1 level of vivisectionist, then your sneak attack would be at 6+1 = 7 rogue-level-equivalents.
The way the vivisectionist's ability is formulated means you calculate the entire class level of those other classes into your rogue-level, regardless of what that other class says about calculating its rogue-levels.
Yeah, the alchemist on its own is kind of dubious. Like a rogue. Wit better saves. And better abilities. And spells. And a significant stat boost. And a super easy way to get three primary natural attacks.
Oh, but wait. Rogues get more skills. So I guess it's all fair, then? Ouphe.
Honestly, getting Mutagen and Rage on a character is just silly. A lvl3 barbarian/vivisectionist with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes is easily sitting at one to three +10 (2d8+12) attacks a round.
Granted, it looks a lot better on paper than it performs in practice if you've got a GM who actually knows how to build and run encounters, but still.
Obviously a Tiefling with Oversized Limbs so you can TWF with large Sawtooth Sabres with absolutely no penalties. Lol.
A level of Titan Fighter, at least three levels of Titan Mauler, Deific Obedience Achaekek for Mantis Style Mastery...
Sure, it takes 18-20 levels to get there, and you might have to use Wild Stalker Ranger to get Greater TWF without meeting the prerequisites, whilst still being able to pick up Greater Beast Totem (Pounce, duh).
But yeah, full BAB, Rage, Pounce, Greater TWF with no penalties, TWF with large Sawtooth Sabres with no penalties... rawr.
Could give up the Beast Totem route to Pounce, pick up levels in Slayer for TWF feats without prerequisites, grab some Sneak Attack to benefit further from Mantis Style Mastery. Maybe settle for Hellcat Stealth/Pounce?
Take exactly enough levels in Barbarian/Wild Stalker Ranger to pick up Greater Beast Totem and Greater TWF, then finish in Scout Rogue for Sneak Attack on a charge/Pounce? Let's see...
Gets Pounce, still has to meet TWF prerequisities, and no Sneak Attack:
1. Fighter
2-11. Barbarian
Gets Pounce, Greater TWF with no prerequisites, but no Sneak Attack:
1. Fighter
2-4. Barbarian
5-17. Ranger
No Pounce, Greater TWF without prerequisites, with Sneak Attack:
1. Fighter
2-4. Barbarian
5-14. Slayer
I'm sure there are plenty of viable options, but I am lazy... so lazy I didn't realize you give up your RCS feats for Rage Powers with the Wild Stalker... guess there's no Pounce and Greater TWF without prerequisites, after all. Bummer.
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I think by far my favorite combo if not rules dubious is eclipsing rageb and shadow dancer so an urban barbarian rages then disappears.
not sure how that's any better than just taking rogue levels for SAFollowing 4 levels of Scout/Underground Chemist UnRogue with Vivisectionist...
Take the Bomber Rogue Talent at level 2, now you have Bombs that deal damage equal to your Sneak Attack, and add your Intelligence to damage.
Vivisectionist gives up Bombs for Sneak Attack... which stacks with your Rogue Sneak Attack.
You lose no BAB, and no Sneak Attack. You gain Dex to Damage, and Sneak Attack on a charge, as well.
That reminds me. If you are a class that gets sneak attack, but at a slower progression, consider a 1 level dip in vivisectionist.
The text of their sneak attack clearly states that it stacks with other sources and is as rogue.
"Sneak Attack: At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on). This ability replaces bomb."
You get to be an alchemist.
Favored Class Bonuses are not class features, they are part of the Favored Class character feature [chosen at character creation, before you choose the class itself] that is merely triggered by gaining a level in the chosen class!
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Retraining a class level removes all the class features of the highest level of that class, but ONLY the class features!
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You can get the favored class bonus of your chosen class at every level by simply taking this favored class first, then retraining into the class you actually want for that level [e.g. when multiclassing]!
Exception for non-multiclass characters at level 20, since you have trouble finding a trainer with more than 20 levels of your class.
Additionally, this means you can have favored class bonuses of any class you want, regardless of what your actual class is:
Playing a Human Fighter, who wants ever more bonus feats? Choose Warpriest as favored class, take a level in it on each level-up, add the 1/6th of the bonus feat FCB, then retrain into Fighter.
Arcane Trickster needing more rogue/slayer talents? Get that 1/6th bonus talent, then retrain!
Your Dwarf Earth Kineticist needs more damage? Take the Sorcerer's FCB (+1/2 dmg) instead of your own (+1/3)! Want a martial/exotic weapon proficiency on any Dwarf? Just take the Oracle FCB 4 times!
Your Tiefling Wizard can't afford Spell Penetration feats? Take Cleric FCBs to overcome SR checks of outsiders!
Takes time and money though each time: 7 days [5 with synergy] and level x 70gp [level x 50gp with synergy].
If you spend a feat on Racial Heritage (X), you can get pretty much any FCB in the game, regardless of your actual build; e.g. an Elf Arcanist with Racial Heritage (Dwarf) can get the +1/2 damage on all acid/earth spells & spell-like abilities of the Dwarf Sorcerer.
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Favored Class Bonuses are not class features, they are part of the Favored Class character feature [chosen at character creation, before you choose the class itself] that is merely triggered by gaining a level in the chosen class!
+
Retraining a class level removes all the class features of the highest level of that class, but ONLY the class features!
=
You can get the favored class bonus of your chosen class at every level by simply taking this favored class first, then retraining into the class you actually want for that level [e.g. when multiclassing]!Exception for non-multiclass characters at level 20, since you have trouble finding a trainer with more than 20 levels of your class.
Additionally, this means you can have favored class bonuses of any class you want, regardless of what your actual class is:
Playing a Human Fighter, who wants ever more bonus feats? Choose Warpriest as favored class, take a level in it on each level-up, add the 1/6th of the bonus feat FCB, then retrain into Fighter.
Arcane Trickster needing more rogue/slayer talents? Get that 1/6th bonus talent, then retrain!
Your Dwarf Earth Kineticist needs more damage? Take the Sorcerer's FCB (+1/2 dmg) instead of your own (+1/3)! Want a martial/exotic weapon proficiency on any Dwarf? Just take the Oracle FCB 4 times!
Your Tiefling Wizard can't afford Spell Penetration feats? Take Cleric FCBs to overcome SR checks of outsiders!Takes time and money though each time: 7 days [5 with synergy] and level x 70gp [level x 50gp with synergy].
If you spend a feat on Racial Heritage (X), you can get pretty much any FCB in the game, regardless of your actual build; e.g. an Elf Arcanist with Racial Heritage (Dwarf) can get the +1/2 damage on all acid/earth spells & spell-like abilities of the Dwarf Sorcerer.
Curious
So if I have a level 2 fighter and fighter favored class, then retrain into something else, then retrain BACK to fighter, can I gain the favored class bonus again? Like be a level 2 fighter, but I've retraining into ftr1/rogue back to ftr 2, then back ftr1/rogue 1, 20 times do I have 11 favored class hp?
Curious
So if I have a level 2 fighter and fighter favored class, then retrain into something else, then retrain BACK to fighter, can I gain the favored class bonus again? Like be a level 2 fighter, but I've retraining into ftr1/rogue back to ftr 2, then back ftr1/rogue 1, 20 times do I have 11 favored class hp?
I thought about this too, potentially gaining infinite FCBs of all sorts. However, I think the rules unintentionally (and fortunately?) prohibit this:
The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level.
So no, that wouldn't work imo.
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In fact I found quite some more exploits in regards to the Retraining rules. Not sure if people around here appreciate them though:
You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.
Note that this retraining is unrelated to the fighter ability to learn a new bonus feat in place of an old one at certain class levels. That class ability is free, happens instantly when the character gains an appropriate fighter level, doesn’t require a trainer, and can happen only once for any appropriate fighter level. Retraining a feat requires you to spend gp, takes time, requires a trainer, and can happen as often as you want.
This allows you to retrain any feat you have, only putting in 2 restrictions:
1) The feat cannot be a prerequisite for something you have,2) If the feat is from a class feature, the replacement has to be eligible by that same class feature.
However, if you get a feat from other sources, then you can retrain this feat. For example, a Half-Elf gets the Skill Focus bonus feat at 1st level as part of his racial traits (not from a class feature), and therefore he can retrain it into any other feat he wants to. Basically everyone can turn his racial feats into bonus feats via retraining.
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However, if you get a feat from other sources, then you can retrain this feat. For example, a Half-Elf gets the Skill Focus bonus feat at 1st level as part of his racial traits (not from a class feature), and therefore he can retrain it into any other feat he wants to. Basically everyone can turn his racial feats into bonus feats via retraining.
So my Kitsune, who has the Fox Shape feat as a bonus feat at first level (via the Superior Shapeshifter alternate class feature) can retrain it into Furious Focus …
"I used to be able to change shape into a fox, but I've forgotten how to do that. Instead I've been training to improve my power attack." Hilarious.
I also have the Magical Tail feat due to 6 levels of favoured class bonus. Could I retrain that as well? (My second tail just dropped off …)
I also have the Magical Tail feat due to 6 levels of favoured class bonus. Could I retrain that as well? (My second tail just dropped off …)
No:
The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.
You used Magical Tail to get a spell-like ability.