Skrayper |
Do any GMs have a rule of thumb regarding how much of an impact these feats have regarding character wealth by level and/or scaling?
Case in point:
Two feats feel like they'd have the most impact:
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Craft Wondrous Items
Depending on the party makeup, the first one may play little to no part, but the second one is always in play.
Some feats are for charged or single use items:
Brew Potion
Scribe Scroll
Craft Wand
Then there are the less commonly used feats (either due to limited number of available slots, or the number of classes that will be using them that much):
Forge Ring
Craft Rod
Craft Staff
(Not going to go too deep into the other crafting feats)
So, the questions are:
1. Do you reduce the treasure by X% to keep the PCs from getting too powerful?
2. Do you increase the power of the monsters by X% or X CR?
3. Do you let the players just use the feats, accepting that the used feats slots and downtime are the price already paid for the ability?
4. A different solution
I know what the book says, but was curious how many go by that mechanic or something else?
Oli Ironbar |
I am running Skull and Shackles and the party wizard has craft wondrous item.
1. I have not adjusted wealth outside of what the AP lists as loot and opportunities to acquire plunder.
2. I have not increased monster stats, but this is strictly by player requests to run the AP as is.
3. This is where things have become MORE interesting because of the feat. Now the party is very interested in overland / overwater movement speed because it effects the benefit of traveling out of the way. This is maybe unique to the fact that they are on a ship, but a character with a ring of sustenance can find a similar amount of time to work on crafting.
4. I would consider the flavor it adds and the desires of the party. My table is powered to the max even without the benefits of Craft Wondrous, but they want the difficulty of the adventure unaltered. Perhaps your table wants to feel like they are creating their advantage by crafting their own equipment, that is a flavor of role playing that may be separate from the difficulty level they are going for.
MrCharisma |
1. Do you reduce the treasure by X% to keep the PCs from getting too powerful?
2. Do you increase the power of the monsters by X% or X CR?
3. Do you let the players just use the feats, accepting that the used feats slots and downtime are the price already paid for the ability?
4. A different solution
Just a general note for these.
1. No
2. Maybe
3. Yes
4. (Too complicated)
I think giving them these feats and then reducing their treasure would be like giving them Weapon Focus and then increasing the AC of every enemy by 1. If you don't want to include crafting feats in your game then tell the players to pick something else, don't have them waste a feat and then nerf them.
Likewise if they're investing a feat only to find they never have time to use it you're just nerfing that character unfairly. There should absolutely be times when when they don't have time to craft ("We have 16 hours to stop the ritual and you want to do what now!?!"), but there should also be times when they can. Again, if you don't want them to use these feats (or if the adventure genuinely won't have time) just tell them to pick something else.
Increasing enemy difficulty is a bit different. It's usually no fun if there's no challenge, so increasing difficulty can be something that improves the game for everyone.
As an example, I wanted to take Craft Wondrous Items on my Occultist and my GM told me we wouldn't have much time to craft for the whole game. He suggested a Ring of Sustenance if I really wanted to, so that's what I did.
Having an out-of-character conversation is the best way to handle this. If you're not sure about it you could let them take a craft feat with the proviso that you may change your mind later if it's too unbalancing (and they'd get to retrain that feat).
Agénor |
I usually do not allow such feats.
If I allow them, I have a meta-game understanding with the players having them that they won't increase their wealth - as in cash and gear, not counting land owned for example - by more than 25% of what it would be without the feat.
In these 25%, I count items crafted for other members of the group.
Items not owned by the group anymore, because they've been sold away or depleted for example, are removed from the tally.
Example : A character has a wealth of 10k gp. She takes a Craft [magical gear] feat. She uses it to craft an item that would otherwise cost her 2k gp to purchase. It costs her 1k gp in components. Her total wealth is now 11k gp out of 12,5k gp, she has used 1k of the allotment granted to her by the feat.
- Two or more feats would push it to the hard limit of 50% -
Quixote |
Because some of the feats are, as you said, so much more useful than the others, I don't see a reason to keep them all separate. Craft (consumable) Magic Item and Craft (permanent) Magic Item or whatever. Still requires some investment to get into, but not a stupid amount.
The way I handle treasure and magic items is vastly different from anything in any book, so I don't know how much my insight is worth in that regard. But I've heard some people suggest that the Craft feats aren't there to allow players to increase their character wealth, but instead to help make a larger percentage of the same wealth into the exact kind of equipment they want. I think it's a fairly sound point.
The problem I can see is that it's all about a game's pacing, and there will never be much in the way of hard and fast rules for something like that. They're just too many variables.
Some games are non-stop, high-stakes, high-pressure stories that take place over a few days, and there's no way there will be any real amount of downtime. Others are sprawling, meandering narratives that cover large swaths of time or scenarios, and include lots of potential downtime.
OmniMage |
I think there are too many magic item creation feats. I house rule that there are only 2 item crafting feats: Consumables (scrolls, potions, wands, and staves) and Wondrous (wondrous, magic arms and armor, rings, and rods).
I don't nerf players or buff monsters because players use such feats. Feats are supposed to give characters an advantage.
Some campaigns don't give a whole lot of time for players to do item crafting. I warn players in advance if there are feats I'm not going to allow.
MrCharisma |
I usually do not allow such feats.
If I allow them, I have a meta-game understanding with the players ...
I think this is the most important aspect of the discussion - make sure the GM and the players are on the same page. It doesn't really matter what page that is, but if everyone's reading it the same way nobody will be upset.
(Stretching the metaphor a bit, but you get it.)
Dragonchess Player |
Because of the "sell items for 50% of market price" (other than trade goods, etc.) rule, the Craft skill and item crafting feats normally have only a limited impact on total wealth by level in actual play. In effect, the item crafting feats exist to allow PCs to have level-appropriate gear that is actually useful to the character (i.e., not having the barbarian need carry around a +1 kama because that is the only magic weapon they found); no different than if the GM tailors the treasure awards to suit the PCs' specialties.
As to your questions:
1. Do you reduce the treasure by X% to keep the PCs from getting too powerful?
2. Do you increase the power of the monsters by X% or X CR?
3. Do you let the players just use the feats, accepting that the used feats slots and downtime are the price already paid for the ability?
4. A different solution
1. No, but see 4.
2. No, but see 4.3. Yes, but I reserve the right of approval/modification on any custom items. Some players will abuse or misinterpret the item pricing guidelines.
4. As a normal practice, you should be periodically checking the PCs' wealth against the expected WBL and "balanced" distribution guidelines to determine if you should increase or reduce the treasure amounts for the next few sessions. You don't need to have them exactly at the WBL in the table, but they should be reasonably close most of the time.
VoodistMonk |
1. Absolutely not!
2. Oh yeah.
3. As a GM I hand-built an NPC specifically for crafting so the party didn't have to waste their feats or characters' time with it. I like them to have nice things. I like giving the enemy NPC's nice things too. Ooh, shiny.
4. Buy the ticket, take the ride. Burn the boats, don't look back. $#!+ is going to get wild.
The games are better with the proper toys in play... so is Pathfinder. Lol.
Meirril |
1. By its very nature magic items handed to the party are already cutting down the amount of gold received by 50%. The players only get full value from that treasure if they use every item you hand them, or you count magic items as the sales value when you calculate the value of treasure.
All crafting does is un-nerf magic items. So if you are really concerned with crafting feats unbalancing things, give the players less gold and more magic items. If they sell a magic item to make a magic item, it results in no gain.
Also make sure you have the players paying for living costs. 10g a week isn't much, but it adds up if the players are performing crafting and retraining.
2. Not because of magic items. You up the challenge because the party cake-walks your encounters. Not because you handed them something nice.
Let me give an example. Our party received a +1 Vorpal Scimitar. Sounds nice, doesn't it? Except all of the fighters in the group were specialized in other weapons. The +1 Vorpal Scimitar... ended up in the hands of a druid. And the druid? The druid was more combat effective morphing into an Animal for melee than swinging the scimitar. An equivalent +6 weapon did diddly squat for this party.
3. Yes, and no. No as in there are item creation rules and I feel they are easily abused because they aren't intended for players to apply as they see fit. Especially in corner cases like using Craft Construct to make wish-granting painting. Really incredibly stupid corner cases.
4. Take notes of how things generally went during a session. Occasionally ask players outside of game how they feel the campaign is going. Reflect on things to see if everyone is having fun (yourself included). Try changing things if it isn't fun. Communicate why you are changing things, don't try to surprise your players with rules changes. Surprise encounter? Sure. Suddenly changing rules with no explanation? Bad.
5. The greatest control over item crafting is the pacing of the campaign. If the players are constantly adventuring, they don't have time to craft. The GM controls the pacing, though the players can affect that a bit. Like denying the other players a chance to craft by always advancing immediately towards any clue.
Ultimately, downtime is given by the GM. Try to strike a balance you are comfortable with.