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An idea I had, right now we have two arrays for Eidolons depending on the type. 16/16/16/08/12/10 for Divine and Primal and 16/16/16/10/10/10 for Occult and Arcane. And while they get ability boosts the same as the Summoner they don’t/can’t benefit from Apex items the Summoner’s wears (unless I misread that).
And so this solution, either have a designated main stat or pick one and have it be equal to the Summoner’s Charisma. When the Summoner boosts or wears an Apex item that boosts it the Eidolon’s stat likewise rises, which deals with that annoyance (This is also means the Summoner doesn’t have to pay twice for an Apex item for themselves and a hypothetical one for their Eidolon out of their wealth budget). And also frees up one of the stat boosts to further mold the Eidolon how you want.
Also also it incentivizes the Summoner to boost Charisma, which they don’t have a lot of reasons to do so at the moment.
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I feel that would be a bit finicky, plus that highlights one of the issues with the Synthesist in P1, dumping physical stats cause your Eidolon is built like a fridge so your’s are irrelevant when fused.
Full on casty/blasty Eidolons would be neat, but I’m tilting my head at why the Summoner having physical prowess would directly translate into the Eidolon having mental prowess, so in that case I’d still want for Charisma = main stat.
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I think it would be interesting to have reverse stats.
Str <-> cha
Dex <-> int
Wis <-> conIf I have 18 str as my summoner, my eidolons charisma would be 18.
Or vice versa.
18 charisma for an Eidolon with 18 str. So on and so forth.
This would be interesting, but doesn't fundamentally work mechanically.
Any Eidolon without maxed on Dex in this Example has sub-par AC.
The advantage to Rysky's idea is that it ties the Eidolons accuracy progression to the main stat of the Summoner, and allows them to tune the Eidolons stats in the base array however is needed for damage or thematic reasons. It also removes the need to put in place a complicated work around for Apex items. It also solves the lessened incentive issue for Charisma.
The main complication to work through is that Dex seems like a superior main stat in most cases if the Eidolon has a finesse weapon option. Thats an issue for Animal Companions, and would need to be addressed somewhere here as well to avoid the issue with all strength based companions being significantly sub-optimal.
A "meet in the middle" option may be to allow the Eidolon to use the Summoner's Charisma for its attack rolls, which also solves the Eidolons attack progression issues and Apex item issue, but lacks a little bit of the same punchlines.
Its a good concept, and probably workable.
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I feel that would be a bit finicky, plus that highlights one of the issues with the Synthesist in P1, dumping physical stats cause your Eidolon is built like a fridge so your’s are irrelevant when fused.
Full on casty/blasty Eidolons would be neat, but I’m tilting my head at why the Summoner having physical prowess would directly translate into the Eidolon having mental prowess, so in that case I’d still want for Charisma = main stat.
Full on reverse stats also ensures that late game, the Eidolon + Summoner literally covers all attributes in a maximized way with no opportunity cost... which is Not Good.
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Rofl. Considering Summoner was my favorite class in pf1, this is precisely why I am voicing my opinion.
Have you considered the possibility that the things you liked - the customization and mechanical tweak ability- might actually be the same things that made it problematic?
Really considered that possibility?
You've blamed it on tuning previously, but that doesn't actually work or make sense. The Summoner wasn't nearly as OP as a optimized druid, wizard, or barbarian with any of their super problematic builds.
The central issues to the Summoner were that it was essentially two full PCs, and the point buy customization of the Eidolon made it extremely prone to both actual min-maxing and the appearance of min maxing.
The fact that the "floor" on class power was super high didn't help, and neither did the fact that you could make some broke tier Eidolons... but it wasn't the power level that got it banned.
It was the customization.
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While I definitely like the idea of giving summoners more reason to increase their Charisma and this seems like a great way to emphasize the tie between the summoner and the eidolon, I have concerns about how it would affect the rest of the chassis. For example: doing this right now, with no other changes to the eidolon's statline, would be a straight upgrade, with one stat being boosted to 18 and no other stats affected at all. If that's not the desired outcome, then you probably wind up with something like "Your eidolon begins with Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16 and you may choose to replace either its Strength or Dexterity with your Charisma score" which now gives you a kind of tradeoff, but also more or less demands an 18 Charisma or it's a straight downgrade.
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While I definitely like the idea of giving summoners more reason to increase their Charisma and this seems like a great way to emphasize the tie between the summoner and the eidolon, I have concerns about how it would affect the rest of the chassis. For example: doing this right now, with no other changes to the eidolon's statline, would be a straight upgrade, with one stat being boosted to 18 and no other stats affected at all. If that's not the desired outcome, then you probably wind up with something like "Your eidolon begins with Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16 and you may choose to replace either its Strength or Dexterity with your Charisma score" which now gives you a kind of tradeoff, but also more or less demands an 18 Charisma or it's a straight downgrade.
I think there's a good argument for doing something to fix the Eidolons accuracy so that it is always in line with a "proper" Martial characters though.
Without a potent damage bonus mechanic, like rage or sneak attack, etc. (Boost Eidolon has this role, but is strictly worse in most cases), theres not a lot of reason to worry about overshadowing the damage oriented martial characters even with the same accuracy.
This is further substantiated, to me, by my experience playing at levels where Eidolon accuracy IS currently on track - it feels pretty good. It would feel much worse though if I were 1-2 behind.
Tieing Eidolon Accuracy, one way or another, to the Summoners Charisma fixes this issue entirely in one move.
And the Summoner "needing" to have an 18 charisma is no different than any other class needing an 18 in their main stat. Choosing not to do so is putting yourself at an instant, strict disadvantage.
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Just dropping in to say this thread's idea is really good.
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Just dropping in to say this thread's idea is really good.
Ditto. I want to care about CHA as a primary state (right now I don't because of slower spell mastery and limited spells, but that is another thread). This type of change, makes me care about CHA again for the Summoner.
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This makes Cha more important for Summoners and solves the issues the eidolon has with attribute scaling and apex items.
I like it.