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We could say the same for Nidal and Cheliax, but these do go to Lawful Evil. Just being sure your way is the right way does not prevent you from being Evil.
Other factors have an impact here. Mostly how your culture tends to treat people : which behaviors are expected and which are frowned upon.
Nations are pretty easy to identify as "lawful" here, and Lawful Good nations are exceptionally rare (like Mendev, Lastwall, Jinin, and that's about it). So the question is "what makes a lawful nation LE instead of LN or vice versa."
It's abundantly clear why Cheliax, Geb, and Nidal are LE. The one I really wonder about is "why is Oprak LE"? That seems mostly about "we're hobgoblins, and we're not nice" but since Azersi's goals are kind of about "being accepted/respected" and "creating a homeland for 'monsters'" I wonder if they won't need to be a little bit nicer in the long run, and whether that will keep them LE?
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It's interesting how many of the nations who veer away from neutral towards extremes of good or evil, do so in reaction to outside events. Cheliax, Nidal, Lastwall and Mendev are all purely the way they are in reaction to threats. Nobody said 'let's make a LG/LE homeland!'
I kind of like how there's so much history built into the setting, and most of them predate any sort of charismatic leader. In previous settings, it sometimes felt like 'country X is this alignment because it's leader is this alignment and they just sort of follow her lead 'cause she's super-powerful/hot/popular/has their god on speed-dial.'
Geb and Razmir are about the only two real 'cult of personality' countries out there, with values dictated by their ruler. (And hey, it happens to be two of the countries named after said ruler!)
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It's interesting how many of the nations who veer away from neutral towards extremes of good or evil, do so in reaction to outside events. Cheliax, Nidal, Lastwall and Mendev are all purely the way they are in reaction to threats. Nobody said 'let's make a LG/LE homeland!'
I kind of like how there's so much history built into the setting, and most of them predate any sort of charismatic leader. In previous settings, it sometimes felt like 'country X is this alignment because it's leader is this alignment and they just sort of follow her lead 'cause she's super-powerful/hot/popular/has their god on speed-dial.'
Geb and Razmir are about the only two real 'cult of personality' countries out there, with values dictated by their ruler. (And hey, it happens to be two of the countries named after said ruler!)
The cult of personality is also going on in Nex, even though the personality in question is dead/quantum entangled/taking an extended holiday on the Astral Plane.
I cracked open the LOWG, and here are the inner sea nations that are canonically evil (and my best guess why):
Razmiran (cult of personality devoted to an evil ruler)
The Sarkoris Scar (most of the residents are literally demons)
The Gravelands (ruled by an undead tyrant, who destroyed the country that used to be here and reanimated the bodies)
Ustalav (truly wicked aristocracy, lots of vampires, designated "spooky country)
Belkzen (culturally dominated by "not-nice" orcs, this could change)
Oprak (culturally dominated by "not-nice" hobgoblins, this could change)
Mediogalti Island (literally ruled by an assassin cult devoted to an evil god)
Geb (undead tyrant, developed nation version)
Bloodcove (this is where the worst pirates are)
Usaro (fallen demon-worshipping empire in chaos, this could change)
Cheliax (decadence and diabolism)
Nidal (devoted to evil torture god)
and the ones that are canonically good:
Mendev ("the only reason we're here is to fight the demons next door")
Nirmathas (hippies, and the good kind of survivalists)
Kibwe (tolerant trade nexus with good values in every sense)
Nantambu (The Magaambya are here, "do good" is their thing)
Senghor (trade and security seem to be their thing, probably not neutral b/c of good governance)
Ravounel (run by your Hell's Rebels party)
Andoran (Democracy, freedom, individual rights, and self-determination)
Kyonin (hippies, elf version)
Everybody else is neutral.
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We could say the same for Nidal and Cheliax, but these do go to Lawful Evil. Just being sure your way is the right way does not prevent you from being Evil.
Other factors have an impact here. Mostly how your culture tends to treat people : which behaviors are expected and which are frowned upon.
True, which is why I pointed out there's a lack of out & out malice in the Rahadoum system. It's not just that they think they're right, it's that they apply this in a way that isn't as actively malicious as Nidal & Cheliax, while still being oppressive.
I think we have to stipulate that any country on the lawful end of the spectrum is going to be somewhat oppressive by the nature of it. A nation that tries to minimize that would, in my mind, lean towards LG. A nation that tried to maximize it, would lean towards LE. Rahadoum's oppression isn't something they try to curtail, but it also isn't actively malicious in the way that Cheliax or Nidal is.
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Interestingly, Mzali is a theocratic dictatorship ruled by an Evil mythic undead "god" but is LN. I really have trouble understanding why it is not LE.
Perhaps Mzali has read the Evil Overlords List and doesn't want a bunch of treacherous backstabbing jerks for underlings, just waiting to seize power for themselves? :)
More seriously, Mzali isn't tied to a 'real god' who has motivations to send the souls of their followers to their respective evil outer plane (as does Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon), so perhaps Mzali has less concern about the followers moral corruption, since they aren't 'getting anything' out of encouraging them to be a bunch of evil jerks. (Being more of a 'do as I say, not as a I do' sort, who regards their own evil excesses as something *they* get to do, not the hoi-polloi!)
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I can't agree with that stipulation. There's a difference between ordered and oppressive. That line is the Neutral/Evil one.
I think we have to stipulate that any country on the lawful end of the spectrum is going to be somewhat oppressive by the nature of it.
I read "oppressive" as "normative" in the above post. But I agree that my knee-jerk reaction was similar.
Proof that Chaotic and Lawful also exist in our world :-)
I'm looking forward to that Mwangi Expanse book, but while Walkena is clearly evil, the specific form of evil that the country gets up to is stuff like expansionism, xenophobia, totalitarian rule, and deliberate inequality. They're probably on the evil side of LN, but it's not like Cheliax where "we'll torture people to death as a form of public entertainment."
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Interestingly, Mzali is a theocratic dictatorship ruled by an Evil mythic undead "god" but is LN. I really have trouble understanding why it is not LE.Perhaps Mzali has read the Evil Overlords List and doesn't want a bunch of treacherous backstabbing jerks for underlings, just waiting to seize power for themselves? :)
More seriously, Mzali isn't tied to a 'real god' who has motivations to send the souls of their followers to their respective evil outer plane (as does Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon), so perhaps Mzali has less concern about the followers moral corruption, since they aren't 'getting anything' out of encouraging them to be a bunch of evil jerks. (Being more of a 'do as I say, not as a I do' sort, who regards their own evil excesses as something *they* get to do, not the hoi-polloi!)
The religion of Mzali is worship of Walkena. I do not think he goes any softer on his followers than Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon (or even Razmir) would.
In fact, Walkena actively involves them in evil practices :
"Punishment of Seven Angry Suns
This is the punishment meted out by the child-god Walkena, ruler of the city of Mzali in the Mwangi Expanse, to those who offend him.
The punishment lasts for seven days, and when each day dawns the citizens of Mzali decide what the next punishment will be. However, the seventh punishment is always imposed last. The authorities in Mzali declare that no one has ever survived or escaped this punishment, but some people claim to have done so.[1]
First Punishment – left floating face-up in the swamp
Second Punishment – tied to an aurochs and dragged through the bush
Third Punishment – stripped naked, and stung by a dozen angry scorpions
Fourth Punishment – force-fed hallucinogens, then flung into an obsidian-lined pit
Fifth Punishment – sharpened reeds are threaded beneath the skin
Sixth Punishment – packed into a pit of salt
Seventh and Final Punishment – staked out in the desert and left to die of exposure"
And finally : "Non-Mwangi wisely avoid Mzali, or generally suffer horribly for their temerity."
"Suffering horribly" does not sound Neutral to me.
I'm looking forward to that Mwangi Expanse book, but while Walkena is clearly evil, the specific form of evil that the country gets up to is stuff like expansionism, xenophobia, totalitarian rule, and deliberate inequality. They're probably on the evil side of LN, but it's not like Cheliax where "we'll torture people to death as a form of public entertainment."
See above. Torturing people to death actually seems to be a form of public duty in Mzali.