| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am playing Age os Ashes (4th book) and my Bard died.
My new character is an Assassin Rogue, he is from Mediogalti Island and his god is Achaekek (Legal Evil).
He joined the party becouse he have a contrat. He have a name and a mision, find and kill this "man". The only thing I know is that he is part of the enemys of the party.
My rogue have an strict conduct code, he is a profesional. He don't care about pain, he is cold and lethal but he respect his party and fight with them side by side (even they still don't trust him).
In the party there are a good Paladin, Druid and Fighter. This is not a problem, my Rogue is smart and he knows how a Paladin acts, so he will always hide when have to do a bad thing.
I am geting a lot of fun and also my party and GM with this character. The travel and adventure is so rich in roleplay and is by far the best character I had in a lot of years. Here I want to share some advices for people that want to play an evil character with a good party.
1- Talk with the GM, set up a good background and a reason to join the party. This reason must be something usefull for you but also for the others. It' also good to talk with your party off game and tell them that your character is evil becouse of how he grew and his origins but that you will still cooparate with them.
2- Your party are you friends or teammates. It's not PvP, it's not good vs bad. You both share a road and an objective. You can care and protect them specially if you are lawfull evil (I recomend).
3- Be sure that your party have fun, involve them in your history and if they try to stop you in something let them do it. Don't put the good characters in a situation when it's either you or the "good" (specially if it's a Paladin). If you want to do evil acts, do it with stealth and deception (I am crazy good on that).
4- Don't destroy your GM campaign, follow the adventure and inside this adventure you will have oportunitys to make evil acts.
5- I suggest to be lawfull evil with some strict codes that you will ALWAYS follow. Share it with your party. In my case:
- If I promise something I will never fail.
- If I accept a contract it's do or die.
- If I join a party with an objective I won't betray them, and I won't
accept contracts vs them.
- I have full respect vs lawfull people, even if they are good. I just
respect people with codess and honor. Like the Paladin. I actually admire
him.
At the end of the day your gooal as a player is to have a lot of fun and make the GM and your party live a deeper adventure with a diferent prespective.
For GM: ¿Do you allow this kind of characterss?
For everyone: ¿Do you have experience with situations like this?
PD: Sorry for my english, it's not my first lenguage and I am learning.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree completely, and I personally love having an evil character in a good party with my group. I currently GM for a champion (LG), a wizard (CG), a barbarian (CG, formerly CN), and a sorcerer (LE).
The sorcerer is the disgraced son of the local royalty who wants nothing more than to take the throne for himself. At the start of the campaign, he saw the party as tools to get what he wanted. But over time, he's grown to care incredibly deeply about the other members of the party and would do nearly anything for them.
And the thing is, he's still evil. He's still willing to do horrible things to get what he wants (hell, next week the party is going to attempt to assassinate his older brother), but he's a much more interesting character than if his view on the party never changed.
At the start of the campaign, he saw the party as tools to get what he wanted. But over time, he's grown to care incredibly deeply about the other members of the party and would do nearly anything for them.
And the thing is, he's still evil. He's still willing to do horrible things to get what he wants (hell, next week the party is going to attempt to assassinate his older brother), but he's a much more interesting character than if his view on the party never changed.
This make the roleplay rich and players will remember this after years. I sound like a really fun party to play with.
I'll just leave this here.
Great examples of the push and pull over what is "Lawful" but I would caveat its place in this discussion by noting that none of the characters in this scene are evil.
I'd argue that Drax is True Neutral, while Rocket is Chaotic Neutral. Starlord I would probably label as Chaotic Good.
the player suddenly started talking out of game about how they were going to multi-class into Paladin when they gained a level so that they could use Detect Evil on my character and then kill him.
i went throught the exact same situation and just for the record i was on the table for much longer than him and he had just joined
i think there really should be a rule about this
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lawful evil is one of my favorite things alignments to play due to all the allowances I need to figure out as to why he chooses to stick with the party. "I like these people. They amuse me. They're useful-I'll not betray them." and run with it.
I played a Hobgoblin Slayer back in the day and he was nothing but respectful. He even joined he town guard for a while, and worked security for the mansion the group had. (they didnt kill him at first because he was touched by the moon goddess they worked for, and eventually they grew to like him.) But when dealing with enemies he was ruthlessly merciless, and when the GMs cousin accidentally blew up an acolyte because he didnt realize the range of lightning bolt, I was ready to murder the other one for the party's protection, though when the person he viewed as the leader told him to stand down, he did so. He was even helpful carrying the dark tainted objects that only hurt non-evil characters, and wouldve stuck with the party if he hadnt been mind controled by a lich because of those artifacts. in the end, the guards said he wasnt a terrible hobgoblin, and the previously mentioned leader even poured out a drink for him after he fell.
It can work. but yeah. You're evil. Not a jerk.
As an example of a really well written Evil main character working with Good main characters: Grimalkin from 'The Last Apprentice' series.
i think the problem is how alignment is handled
first off alignments don't force characters to act in any way
just because your alignment says evil doesn't mean you are forced to betray people
for instance your evil alignment could be [just as an example] for doing a ritual to turn a dying person into an vampire maybe a mother so she can continue to look after her daughter or something]or maybe from raising a large number of undead skeletons to protect a orphanages from demons, the alignment would be evil [because the devs decided so] that doesn't mean that character would be less compassionate towards people he could just be a realist that cares more about good results than the methods [my ends justify the means] type of person
but pathfinder players just stuck in their heads that aligned character have act in the most stereotypical way possible [well at least they think so for evil ones]
also i will never understand the double standard why is it ok for a good cleric to force the rest of the party to go on an un-payed dangerous quest they likely don't want its not disruptive but when a evil character on his own without bothering the party starts to research necromancy that is somehow disruptive
its even more absurd when members of the party act far more evil and cause far more destruction than the evil character in question, and the evil character causes much more good outcomes than the non-evil party
on a whole i think alignment is a bad idea because it kind of implies actions can be defined as absolute good or evil things that you cannot do unless you have a level of omniscience that i don't think even pharasma has
Good and evil do have double standards.
If the PCs routinely act evil, they aren't good regardless of what's written on their character sheet.
Then, of course, playing an evil character doesn't mean that you have to be evil in every single thing that you do.
My PF1 Witch character mostly does good, but her powers come from Nocticula, she is somewhat manipulative, and she has got quite selfish primary objectives (becoming rich and famous). So, while she has surely saved more lives than the common 'good' guy, I consider her neutral.
I have never played with an evil characters in the party. In my first campaign I played a chaotic neutral character and that was bad enough with a paladin.
I can't imagine trying to play as a chaotic evil character with a Paladin and not causing issues unless the chaotic evil character pretty much always does "good" things. Then are you really an evil character anyway?
I feel it is really subjective but if an evil person follows a group of good characters and just does "good" things then they really aren't that evil even if it says evil on the sheet.
Here is the description of evil from AoN "Your character has an evil alignment if they’re willing to victimize others for their own selfish gain, and even more so if they enjoy inflicting harm." Now would a good group really continue partying with a character if they found out their companion tortured people for their own gain and actually enjoyed harming people.
I feel there would have to be an awful lot of reason for the group to stay together rather than find another party member... At the same time I am not sure I even like rigidly defining character to make them fit CE/LG/NE etc. I feel if you just make a personality that should be good enough.
Ex. If I playing a super selfish rogue who steals when it will help them with their goal. What if everything else you do is about helping people and the party. So your character is stuck between CN/CE but putting an E on your sheet wants your entire party to kill you even though either way your the same character.
|
An Evil creature that does mostly Good acts and avoids Evil acts will likely not be Evil for very long in my game. Even if it was a Demon.
I believe Alignment originated as a shorthand for a given NPC's likely behavior. If the NPC is Evil, their actions will more likely be Evil. And same for all components. And Neutral is kind of 50/50.
I recently had the chance to play one of my favorite characters,
a chaotic evil gnome bard named Krishni in a good/neutral group.
Krishni loves heroic stories and desires nothing more then to be a hero, but deep down he is a violent being that is fascinated by bloodshed and murder.
What hinders him greatly is his abysmal strength (GM allowed me to have 6 strength) and his poor judgment (8 Wisdom). And while he does want to go on adventure with the good guys (hes one of them, after all), he will use every opportunity to make the story more heroic - the dire the situation, the greater the glory.
His grandmother taught him to never punish the good guys, so tries to keep his urges down and saves them for the bad guys, but if someone "proves" that he is a bad guy (for example by not helping the group), he is very willing to use magic and deceit to solve that problem.
It worked out pretty well, because Krishni absolutly adored the groups Barbarian and Fighter (they look like the kind of hero Krishni would like to be).
If the group (5 players) decided upon a course of action, he would try to persuade them to do the "good" thing, but he would not impose his will (openly) - after all, he found a group he felt comfortable with and admired.
My favorire moment was, when the group headed to one of the citys finest establishments to ask the owner some questions, and the guy at the reception didn´t want to let them in, even after Krishni loudly proclaimed that they are the heroes which would save the city.
In the evening he decided to punish this man and created an illusion of him and went to another local bar where the illusion called the owner a dick and that he hated to work there. Needless to say, the man lost his job, and Krishni had suceeded to punish another evil guy.
unless you get bitten by a vampire then you are evil no matter what you do cause undeath is the one unforgivable sin to the devs
|
|
unless you get bitten by a vampire then you are evil no matter what you do cause undeath is the one unforgivable sin to the devs
I think that you turn Evil just like you turn into an undead. But this does not prevent you from becoming Good again later on. Even being a Fiend does not make you immune to redemption in Golarion.
A smart villain can look like a hero. Not to forget edgy, antiheroes; glad they're less present nowadays. As long as the rest of the players are in on the concept, a player can make an evil character be evil and fit a non-evil party.
And there's always the good, ol' "lesser evil"; good guys put up with a bad guy to stop a worse guy.
Let's not forget character development either; alignment can change. Isn't that a swell pitch for your evil character to the group (provided you actually go through with it)?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Technically becoming undead does not necessarily make you evil, at least not immediately. Most means of becoming undead however do involve sacrificing your humanity or any pretense that you care about your former fellow mortals (lichdom being the most obvious in most depictions, though volunteering for vampirism likely qualifies too). The reality is that consciously seeking immortality by undeath often means choosing to put your own wants above the needs of others, which is not traditionally an act associated the upper alignments.
That said, there are many ways to become an undead through no fault of your own, typically by means of being forcibly converted. In these cases you are still not safe, as the process of becoming an undead, aside from the trauma, includes replacing the vital life-giving energy in your body (i.e. instincts) with hunger and destruction. This means that at all times your basic drives are feeding you with a hunger to destroy or consume, to treat those around you as expendable meat sacs whose only value is how they directly benefit you. You still have control over your own mind, but in some ways the mind is a plaything of the body (or I guess vital energy in this case).
Point being that becoming undead doesn't automatically guarantee that you become evil, but living in a shell powered by negative energy does require a constant dedication to fighting your every instinct for a hypothetical eternity even as you are given less and less reason to remain connected to your humanity (relatively speaking--nonspecific to human humanity XD).
(Meanwhile there are ghosts, which in 1st edition could be any alignment as required by the plot, and rise through extreme emotions. I believe that non-evil ghosts have been redefined in 2e as spirits rather than undead in 2e, meaning that properly undead spirits still follow the pattern of negative energy giving negative vibes.)
---
PS. As for evil player characters, I used to be always optimistic that a well roleplayed evil character could be an interesting addition to most parties. I still entertain the idea, however experience with the group I normally run with means I have returned to my habit of requesting non-evil PCs for similar reasons listed by others above.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
unless you get bitten by a vampire then you are evil no matter what you do cause undeath is the one unforgivable sin to the devs
There are a fair number of non-Evil canonical undead in the setting, including vampires. Now, being a vampire makes it harder to not be Evil due to the new and antisocial impulses involved, but it's not impossible by any means.
I can think of many. Here are two:
The fighter who adventures only to increase his skill, at least on the surface. Really he just likes cutting flesh and killing. He doesn't care about the gold so gives most of it away. He spends most of his time adventuring because that's where he can do his killing. Cities are hard for him, he's always just a hair away from slicing into the wrong person.
Or a character who is nice and happy, loves his company and adventuring crew like the family they never had. They go on adventures, they get close, then one is captured. The prisoner the group has it the only lead and nothing can get them to talk. This evil character will do anything to save his family, a few minutes later, when the screaming ends, they walk out with the information and a smile. Let's go save our friend.
The key is as stated above, have a reason to be with the party and don't try to derail the campaign. An evil pc had to be smart evil.
This is what I mainly get confused about alignment. In general I just feel that your character doesn't do anything evil so how can he be evil.
For someone truly being evil in my eyes that would have to do evil thing regularly which your party would be against. I guess you could just be doing the evil things behind everyone's back but I would be worried they would find out and would cause lots conflict as stated from other posters.
As long as the good characters never found out about the evil things your characters are doing it would be fine, but if they did find out I feel it could become a mess. That is why I would be too scared to play an evil character in a good party.
I just find alignment kind of an unnecessary thing though since I feel it would constantly be changing and sometimes a character just doesn't fit a specific alignment.
|
|
Technically becoming undead does not necessarily make you evil, at least not immediately. Most means of becoming undead however do involve sacrificing your humanity or any pretense that you care about your former fellow mortals (lichdom being the most obvious in most depictions, though volunteering for vampirism likely qualifies too). The reality is that consciously seeking immortality by undeath often means choosing to put your own wants above the needs of others, which is not traditionally an act associated the upper alignments.
That said, there are many ways to become an undead through no fault of your own, typically by means of being forcibly converted. In these cases you are still not safe, as the process of becoming an undead, aside from the trauma, includes replacing the vital life-giving energy in your body (i.e. instincts) with hunger and destruction. This means that at all times your basic drives are feeding you with a hunger to destroy or consume, to treat those around you as expendable meat sacs whose only value is how they directly benefit you. You still have control over your own mind, but in some ways the mind is a plaything of the body (or I guess vital energy in this case).
Point being that becoming undead doesn't automatically guarantee that you become evil, but living in a shell powered by negative energy does require a constant dedication to fighting your every instinct for a hypothetical eternity even as you are given less and less reason to remain connected to your humanity (relatively speaking--nonspecific to human humanity XD).
(Meanwhile there are ghosts, which in 1st edition could be any alignment as required by the plot, and rise through extreme emotions. I believe that non-evil ghosts have been redefined in 2e as spirits rather than undead in 2e, meaning that properly undead spirits still follow the pattern of negative energy giving negative vibes.)
---
PS. As for evil player characters, I used to be always optimistic that a well...
Thanks to this post, I went and checked the templates we currently have in PF2. Most of them state that the creature usually turns Evil. Which is far less restrictive than the ones in PF1 where undead templates always turned you Evil, except for Ghost.
I like this relaxing of alignment changes, because it allows for a greater variety in stories being told while still keeping the Undead mostly means Evil paradigm.
Come to think of it, I really appreciate that PF1's Smite Evil is mostly gone because it makes recognizing Evil at first glance less needed. And I say this as a great fan of Paladins since at least 3.5.
unless you get bitten by a vampire then you are evil no matter what you do cause undeath is the one unforgivable sin to the devsThere are a fair number of non-Evil canonical undead in the setting, including vampires. Now, being a vampire makes it harder to not be Evil due to the new and antisocial impulses involved, but it's not impossible by any means.
Or it could be that Vampirism works the way in does in Order of the Stick, which has a pretty good way of explaining why vampires are all inherently evil.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or it could be that Vampirism works the way in does in Order of the Stick, which has a pretty good way of explaining why vampires are all inherently evil.
It doesn't, though. That's a valid construction for a specific, non-Golarion, game world, but Blood of the Night actually gave us a bunch of canonical stuff on how vampirism works in Golarion and the OotS version is very much not it.
I just find alignment kind of an unnecessary thing though since I feel it would constantly be changing and sometimes a character just doesn't fit a specific alignment.
If you are a GM (or have influence with your GM), note that the Gamemastery Guide manages to pack a bunch of interesting "let's have less/no alignment" variations into a couple of pages.